Choice of Rebels: Uprising — Lead the revolt against a bloodthirsty empire!

Current plan is Book 3 you’ll be able to either spend time in Whendery or the Westriding of Shayard, in Book 4 in either Nyryal or the Shayard Reach, and in Book 5 either eastern Erezza or Aveche. Each will take up one chapter, or much of one. We’ll see if I can live up to the ambition. :slight_smile:

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If you don’t mind me asking, will there be another part that we have to minmax as intensely as the Winter in Uprising?

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Let’s see how the complexity of Chs 2 and 3 in G2 turns out. I think it’ll feel very different to G1 Ch2 – it won’t be a grinding survival game – but I’m not sure yet whether rebellion-optimizers will find it equally rich from a minmaxing perspective.

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You mean it will be a complex “stay under the radar” personal, as opposed to a large band of people this time, survival game in a Shayardene town?

That seems to be where the real politicking starts, eh? With the mc attempting to influence and possibly unite (or divide) multiple factions in (Grand) Shayard.

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Something I’ve wondered for a long time, and don’t know if it was asked before, is there any possibility we suffer physical mutations while in Xaos?

A couple of things should be going on in Ch 2:

  • First, you’ll be remote-managing (or remote-influencing, or just remote-monitoring) the revolt in the Rim. You’ll personally be in the Southriding, lying low, but still in communication with rebel leaders back in the Rim, including whoever you left as leader of your band (if G1 Ch4 went well enough for you to appoint a leader). There will be decisions on the rebel tactics you want to encourage/discourage, relationships to strengthen or sabotage, etc.
  • Second, you’ll be engaging with the village of Irduin where you’re lying low. You can choose to stir up chaos there – or you might think it’s found a stability worth protecting, where the nobles, helots, priests, merchants, and yeomen are about as good to each other as it’s possible to be under the Hegemony. That stability is buckling under external threat: the new village Telone, with the connections to outside authorities he brings, and your rebellion, the Rim Commotion, which has shaken up the cordial relations between the classes in the village.

The “you” in that last paragraph refers to a generic MC, not your Maoist helot firebrand, @idnlun, who will obviously not consider the Irduin balance one worth protecting. :slight_smile:

Ch 2 will be in some ways a small scale version of the full-on factional politicking that starts, as you note, in Ch 3.

It has been speculated about before, and I responded here.

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That gave me tactical whiplash. And made excited at all the amount of games we have left. I’m also cool either way, just curious about the different kinds of changes that can be possible.

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Yep, considering the helots are still subhuman farm animals and slaves and the caste system nonsense is still being propagated did you really think my mc would let an opportunity, however small it may be, since he is just on his own, slip by?

This will be interesting indeed my mc has become very interested in the telones and other low level Hegemony officials as potentially a lot of them may be like Bleys, despised themselves, doing thankless jobs where they are not appreciated and indeed almost as oppressed as the lower rungs of the yeomen by the Alastors.
This does obviously not apply to all of them, so learning more about their organisation, structure and position in society would help my mc better estimate who among may be susceptible to be turned to his side and potentially promoted as vital source of trained professionals. Especially since my mc does not want to draw his professionals from the provincial nobility or the church and it would be good if he has a second source besides the merchants and the few more educated foreigners he might inspire.

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So I’ve really liked this game, but I find micromanaging the winter to be excessively tedious in multiple replays. How well does your deputy do if you automanage it? Is there any content you can only get via manually handling the winter?

Heh don’t worry about it, (speaking for only myself) I liked pushing the Winter to the limit, but I also like the idea of other challenges and experiences, and more opportunities for self-expression rather than minmaxing.

And if every book had a chapter as brutal as G1Ch2, it would take us…20 years to minmax the series, at the rate we’re going lol. Though perhaps the time will speed up dramatically once we get a bigger fanbase and more minmaxers to bounce ideas off of.

Wow, this sounds like a lot of fun! I know which path my Ruthless Helots are going to take, but as for the Nobles…aside from the option to stabilize the current order, will there be a chance to help your fellow Aristocrats get even stronger?

The Deputy is actually decent if you let the Harrowing happen, but is somewhat poor if you stopped the Harrowing. If your goal is to evade the enemy army or run back to the camps, you can do fine anyways. If you let Deputy run the Winter (and stop the Harrowing) and want to actually fight, you’ll probably lose some lieutenants (the named characters like Elery and Kala) and barely win, or lose the battle outright.

And yes, there is content you can only get via manually managing the Winter. “Flawless Victory” (you fight and all the named characters live) with certain builds, specifically Ruthless Helot builds, requires near-perfect manual management.

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Yes-- you can accept that the old ways are breaking down but try to encourage a new order in which the nobles are clearly dominant.

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And can you perform a reform instead of breaking whole thing if you want to be pro-helot instead of pro-aristo?

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I’m not sure that, even with a 2CHA character, you’ll be able to convince the aristos to just free the helots and end their oppression.

A pro-helot reform at this stage requires breaking things, as helots are currently sub-human farm animals according to the divinely ordained caste system. Said caste system being the bedrock of the Hegemony’s version of order.
Any pro helot reform requires dealing with those facts on the ground and since the mc and their rebellion are not currently a government themselves at this point helping helots requires breaking down the Hegemony’s version of order. Even if you are planning to go the eclect route and/or only poke small holes to allow for limited helot mobility.
At present even that cannot be done due to the hegemonic moloch that is the Hegemony theocracy.

However since the helots already die the most horrible painful death imaginable after a life of untold suffering in slavery even dying any other death is an admittedly very marginal improvement, but an improvement nonetheless.
As it isn’t really possible to harm the helots any more than they already are any further breakdowns in civil order hurt the non-helot groups who used to derive some benefit from it more than it hurts the helots.

That being said in as much as it is possible my mc will try make sure further breakdowns affect the provincial nobility and the priesthood more than the others.

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That doesn’t help helots either, you know. Breaking down civil order just leads to more depredations against those least able to defend themselves. Until you’re in a position to give the helots something better, they will continue to suffer.

…Dude. “It doesn’t matter what I do to the helots, if they suffer and die from it it’s still better than a Harrowing”? That’s a really far-out self-justification.

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There is another aspect to this, though, which is roleplay. If you are to optimise the narrative with a modern mindset, then of course you can reach the conclusions that you’re reaching. If you’re pushing the narrative forward from the perspective of a helot, though, it’s much more reasonable to have a plan of “burn everything down and figure out the details afterwards.”

This is well-said but in the context of the XoR world this would typically be a thought only an Aristo MC could present.

The Hegemony has ensured that the helots have no education and as little skill in critical thinking as possible. The helots have been exposed to constant violence and abuse, being treated in a most appalling manner at all stages of life - Book 2 Chapter 2 notwithstanding.

They understand that the system must be changed, and understand that those who hold power use violence to maintain it. It is entirely reasonable for a helot rebel to have a “shoot first, ask questions later” policy with regards to the progression of their rebellion, isn’t it?

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Indeed it is and there can be no half measures on the caste system…because we have seen in the real world where half-measures get you.

The symbolism of posthumously caging the most prominent casteless leader is well…not a great look to put it lightly.

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A helot with INT 2 has as much of an education as an aristo with the same, due to Olynna and an aristocratic friend. So there is that.

Oh, aye. As you noted, I’m usually arguing against @idonotlikeusernames from an aristocratic and fairly conservative perspective.

(We argue in this thread all the time. Part of the charm.)

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Hi there, total noob here! (and lurker who’s enjoyed reading the updates and debates amongst you guys)

a. Beyond Game 1, will crime lord/“godfather”/“godmother”/“kingpin”/“queenpin” antics continue working for our MC during later games?

To further elaborate: even though I typically prefer to win over Alaine with my 2INT “let’s be friendly business partners who can profit from each other in good faith!” approach, I was both surprised (and slightly amused) to find out that the iconic “offer you can’t refuse” approach was an equally valid tactic for bending the merchant faction to your will.

I also wonder if the “organized crime route” might be allowed to delve into “Breaking Bad”/“Opium War”/“narco”-levels of drama and intrigue, e.g. my high-INT MC creates an original herb (or alters an existing known herb, e.g. mullow) to start introducing addictive/poisonous foods and beverages into enemy territory marketplaces.

(while also concocting an equally addictive antidote (or temporary vaccine) that will hopefully serve as a repeatable, long-term, and overpriced bargaining chip to force enemy factions into agreeing with any demands our MC makes)

And keeping with the theme of XoR being all about hard choices (and having to live with their consequences), I imagine that my suggested drug-dealing approach easily qualifies as a double-edged sword (since the spread of addictive/poisonous foods and beverages might escalate beyond my control later down the road, eventually hurting allied territories who I previously thought to be ‘immunized’.)

All hail Heisenberg Seriatou the Plague-bringer, First of his Name.


b. And here’s a potentially interesting alternative take on a high-INT MC (for players who mostly (or completely) dismisses wielding Theurgy in favor of more mundane, less supernatural fields of expertise) - A master businessman, industrialist, and/or entrepreneur who wins over allies with shady backroom deals while waging economic warfare against rivals/enemies. This MC’s strategy is based on one particular assumption: he’s already resigned himself to believing that in the grand scheme of things, his faction can’t possibly win a conventional war against the other major powers’ manpower and Theurgy (thus perceiving a need to constantly resort to sneakier methods).

I was pleased to see shades of this archetype during my playthrough (especially when the backbone of my 2-INT Noble MC’s success hinged upon successful, business-minded negotiations with Isme, Alaine, and Calea) and during my browsing of this forum (my jaw dropped when I learned that your MC can frame Isme or Alaine during the “recruit Bleys” route).

But, since all works of art always have room for improvement, I’d like to throw in my two cents for what new method we can include.

The example that I’d like to talk about from an episode of a favorite (and arguably underrated) anime of mine, called “Shoukoku no Altair”.
Its protagonist, Mahmut (a “pasha”/general of the Turkieye Stratocracy, aka “anime Ottoman Empire”) manages to break apart an alliance between Balt-Rhein (aka “anime Holy Roman Empire,” the story’s main antagonist faction) and Venedik (aka “Venice”) with a particularly clever ploy (as explained below).

Mahmut, while in disguise and operating through a struggling merchant’s business (as his proxy), sells Venedik glassware (in great numbers) to China, under the seemingly benign pretense of merely selling luxuries to the Emperor of China, (who’s an eager consumer of “beautiful and intriguing” Western goods, AND needs to decide which gifts will given to the “masses in attendance of the crown prince’s birthday”).

Because of Mahmut’s bulk sale, Venedik is put in the tough spot of having to urgently buy huge stockpiles of wheat from Tharros (aka “anime Africa”), just so that Venedik can meet its quota (to convert enough wheat into straw as packaging material for the 400,000 boxes of glassware).

At the same time, Balt-Rhein urgently needs Tharros’ “huge stockpiles of wheat” to fuel their invasion of Turkieye (and FYI, the cargo that Venedik purchased was originally scheduled for delivery to Balt-Rhein, right up until Venedik out-bid Balt-Rhein by offering Tharros five times the sale price of wheat.)

So in response, Balt-Rhein’s Prime Minister, Virgilio Louis, feels compelled to intercept the Venedik fleet with a blockade.
At first, Louis’ envoy tries to resolve the resource dilemma (by simply reimbursing Venedik for the wheat, if Venedik will immediately return the wheat to Balt-Rhein). Unfortunately, because of Venedik’s rigid national philosophy (of honoring every business transaction, no matter the circumstances), Venedik refuses the envoy’s offer, and then conflict between the two fleets ensues.

Thus, Mahmut’s ploy effectively scuttles the alliance between Balt-Rhein and Venedik while also creating an opportunity for Venedik to join Mahmut’s “Triparte Alliance” later down the road).

Anyways, before I get further bogged down going through “anime geopolitics memory lane,” let’s get back to the subject of XoR.

Might it be possible for an MC (with a high enough INT score and a sufficiently strong relationship with the merchant faction) to pull off a similar stunt in XoR? (engineering circumstances that manipulate enemy coalitions into backstabbing each other over an “Apple of Discord” natural resource)


c. Per earlier posts (which pointed out the possibility of visiting/investigating the direct source of Xaos-storms), might we possibly discover (and/or) create tools that let our MC channel/unleash Xaos-stormbolts?
(e.g. some sort of Mjolnir or a close equivalent)
I also imagine that achieving such a miracle might require the following combination of factors:
Sufficiently strong alliances with Xaos-landers, Abhumans, and/or their associates (to gain access to required technical knowledge),
And a sufficient INT score (2-3) for forging the invented “pseudo-Mjolnir” into a viable weapon.

I’d also personally nickname my version of “pseudo-Mjolnir” as “Mule Nyr” (along with painting an emblem of a mule next to Nyr’s unspecified national flag on the hammer), purely for wordplay/punny reasons. :slight_smile:

And it’s not just military applications I have in mind, what if our MC were (eventually) able to figure out a way to literally “capture lightning in a bottle”?
(creating the very first Xaos storm-powered battery (and XoR’s very first PG&E company),
with my merchant/advertising contacts (from Game 1 and beyond) presenting said battery as a newfound energy alternative to blood)

And assuming my MC does a good job of protecting his trade secrets, perhaps his entrepreneurship could snowball into making him the “richest man alive” in XoR’s history (thus allowing him to play kingmaker or outright buy his way into becoming the next king himself).


d. My personal chosen nickname for Jac Cabel’s yeomanry-based rebel faction - “The Farmer Joe Brigade.”

But jokes aside, does heavy Game 1 (and beyond) recruitment of yeomanry affect your dealings with Jac Cabel’s faction?

On one hand, maybe Jac sees you as a competitor (since he’s desperately trying to recruit the yeomanry under his banner, too).

But on the other hand, perhaps Jac might instead interpret your yeomanry recruitment drive in a more positive light (e.g. “Hey, maybe the MC and I share a common commitment to improving the day-to-day lives of yeomanry”).


e. If Thaumatarch Hera is the original leader of the Greek-influenced/inspired Hegemony, what happened to XoR’s version of ‘Zeus’?


f. Random idea on how to reconcile a “your MC died at the end of game 1” playthrough with future games:
A prologue section reveals that Archlich Gaesh graverobbed the MC’s corpse (because he’s already deemed MC to be ‘a fascinating specimen’ after having listened to the reports of his undead (and unseen) spies).

Afterwards, Gaesh’s necromancy ends up reviving MC as a member of the Unquiet Dead. But whether because of lingering willpower/wits from his/her previous life (or because of outside intervention from a third party), MC was able to (temporarily) regain most of his/her old memories and free will (during the interim between Game 1 and 2)?

And the reason I suggest “temporarily” is because we could introduce a unique metric, “estimated time left until Gaesh retakes control of you.” (thus raising personal stakes for the MC, who not only has to rebuild his rebellion from scratch (along with having to overcome the stigma of being a disgraced rebel who very recently lost against the Hegemony), but now also has to struggle to keep his very own soul.)

And as for how an Unquiet Dead MC could still be relevant for the socializing/“wining and dining” aspects of Game 2’s later chapters, perhaps Cerlota’s mastery of Theurgy could restore MC’s missing flesh (or at least manifest as a 24/7 glamor that covers MC’s rotting parts)?


g. Will it also be possible to intertwine certain factions of supporters more closely together?

(E.g. our MC combines…
#1: his influence over Xthonic religion as Eclect
#2: and his merchant network, trade connections, and other forms of economic might,
to create his version of the Knights Templar?
(an organization which arguably qualifies for the title of “the world’s first international banking system,” with their “remarkable rise from donated rags to vast riches” having been kickstarted by the decree of a pope).

(FYI, the source I’m relying on is this link: Templar Banking: How to go from Donated Rags to Vast Riches - Medievalists.net)

And as for how an XoR Knights Templar strategy might possibly backfire in Game 5, inspiration can be taken from the downfall of the historical Templars.

Perhaps a disgruntled customer (similar to King Philip IV of France) might seek to escape his debts (to your Templars) by propping up a charismatic rival Eclect, who uses false (but cleverly crafted/hard to debunk) accusations to undermine the legitimacy of your Xthonic faction?

Eventually, with enough failed stat checks (or overall poor decisions from our MC), the smear campaign eventually leads to the MC’s entire faction being declared as heretics (against “the true Xthonic faith”), with all of MC’s Templars getting arrested (while their assets get seized) and then eventually burnt at the stake (or in XoR’s context, Harrowed instead).


h. (building upon my earlier Knight Templar-inspired banking suggestion)
And if we take into account (possibly late-game acquired) necromancy skills (from teachings and time spent with the Unquiet Dead), what if the MC’s banking institution became the XoR equivalent of the Orzhov Syndicate? (a favorite faction of mine from Magic the Gathering)

FYI, quick copy-paste quote about what sort of organization the Orzhov are: “The Orzhov Syndicate is the Ravnican guild of business, where the values of white and black meet and the dead exist solely as capital. Nearly every business in Ravnica ties back to the Orzhov in some way or another. While they bear the facade of a religious group and may have been a true faith at the signing of the Guildpact, they now worship only profit and power.

The Orzhov guild is founded on the beliefs that wealth is power, that structure breeds wealth, and that guilt creates structure. The guild is a combination of a religion, credit-lending agency, and crime syndicate. An ostentatious hierarchy of priests, enforcers, and ghostly councilors rules over a congregation of guilt-bound loyalists, indebted ghosts, and thrull servants. Should somebody be in debt to them, that person must work off their debt even beyond death. Many Orzhov guild members believe that their actions are necessary for making Ravnica the best it can be, and they are unscrupulous in their methods of seizing power. Most Ravnicans see the Orzhov as a corrupt organization, but many are attracted by promises of wealth, prestige, and longevity.

Their white flavor is exemplified by how they have a strong sense of tradition and community, reflected by the fact that they still partake in all of their ancient rituals and customs despite not worshiping any gods. It is also symbolized in how they hoard their wealth, but are shown to share with family members or close friends. Their black flavor can be seen in that they regularly deal with the dead, they never give to charity if they can help it, and continually violate the spirit of the law merely to meet their own ends. The Orzhov know also how to create thrulls out of remnants of past debtors.”


i. Random theory about Xthonos’ true identity (since “Xth” is pronounced as “Cth”, correct?) Xthonos is the “benevolent half” of XoR’s version of Cthulu, with Xaos being Cthulu’s “expunged evil half.” Or at least, that could have been the convenient creation myth that was concocted to explain a past epic war between two ancient, squid Abhuman mortals. :slight_smile:
But regardless of Xthonos’ authenticity (or lack thereof), I can already imagine my church’s new motto: “May Xthonos’ divine tentacles bless you, my child.”


j. Building upon earlier discussions (about “non-empire ruling roles in the post-Hegemony era”, such as kingmaker, eminence grise, ‘Vatican Switzerland’ fantasy pope, perpetual rebel), here are other suggestions that come to mind:

#1: (overlapping with kingmaker and/or perpetual rebel) What if instead of Horion’s Shayard League, MC’s cosmopolitan rebellion ultimately becomes a nomadic “soldiers without borders’’ mercenary faction, only pledging allegiance to the highest-bidding anti-Hegemony faction(s)? (akin to that of Big Boss’ Militaires Sans Frontières/Diamond Dogs from the Metal Gear franchise)

#2: (overlapping with kingmaker, along with possibly overlapping my earlier discussion about Knight Templar financing)
What if a high-INT MC (who graduated from Game 1 with strong relationships with the merchants, e.g. Alaine Leybridge) eventually became THE leading member (or merely one of the leading members) of the Syntechia/merchant guilds?
In this scenario, I imagine that MC eventually becomes rich/influential enough to upgrade the Syntechia, turning the Syntechia into XoR’s version of the Iron Bank (from ASOIAF/Game of Thrones), uplifting ally factions with generous loans while punishing/blacklisting any “repayment dodgers”.
And to keep the gameplay balance from becoming too easy in MC’s favor, perhaps the Iron Bank’s oppression ends up creating one of Game 5’s main antagonist factions: a borderless, global alliance of black markets and smugglers (who also happen to be aided by Iron Bank inside men that wish to usurp your MC).

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@mshan95032 holy cow that is by far the largest post I think I’ve seen to date lol not bad thing but I just had to say that. :smiley: Now to well truly read it

:: Whistles :: that’s quite a lot to unpack but with a first read through I like the posibiltys quite alot and would be curious to see where they lead.

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