Choice of Rebels: Uprising — Lead the revolt against a bloodthirsty empire!

Some men just wanna watch the Hegemony burn

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Or Women :wink:

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Or everyone in general. Just me? Okay…

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You dropped this :crown:

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Or helots

Halassur is not really able to attack Shayard effectively. The distances and accompanying logistics involved are monstrous. That’s why they’re backing the Laconniers.

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True, they’d have to pass Erezza and way too closely to Karagon and Aekos for the Hegemony to be comfortable.

Abhuman however, might be another matter. If it came to it, you might be fighting on two, possibly four (if attacks come from Xaos Lands and the Hegemony use Wiendrj as a staging point to attack Shayard).

Although, there’s also the argument that you can split Shayard from the Hegemony and there’s no reason why an alliance or agreement of sorts can’t be made with the Abhumans. Even pragmatically, they’d then have a nation between them and a hostile Hegemony.

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Hey there I’m a silent reader but I wanted today to involve myself this story is one of the best I had read is long enough and the world lore and details are more then satisfying the plot is even amusing I’m looking forward for the next sequels my word for the author is thanks for making such masterpiece

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My mc would agree with you we need to keep it mostly intact to stand a chance (at industrialising and advancing into the modern world, for which Shayard on its own lacks the resources), which is why he doesn’t favour the koinon.
That said while he wants to keep up the territorial integrity he does want to change radically.

Well their master plan, as far as I can deduce right now, seems to be to genocide Erezza and Karagon (and use those populations to build their own theurgic miracle society, which would seem to be even less sustainable than the Hegemony) and then keep the new Shayard as a backwards and pastoral neighbour trapped in feudalism. :unamused:

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Just off topic for a moment, but I was reading about the Illuminati and one of their members was Goethe. Coincidence? I think not. :thinking:

As for Shayard, it’s not like Hallasurq would make a beeline for them at once. If we manage to split the Hegemony or weaken it with a secession, they would just take the country one bite at a time.

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But why not disband Hegemony and replace it with a cooperative states(aka league of, well… leaguers)? Also, I fear that conquering rich in resources areas would require too much work from post-rebellion newborn state. Maybe trade will be a better way than autarky to get needed resources for industrialization?

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Just popping in to say I’m enjoying the discussion – and to welcome @LordAinz and thank you for your kind words!

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Thank you as well for the masterpiece you made and I’m really looking forward to your next sequels I’m sure that they will be even greater

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While on my primary playthroughs I’d agree with you, as I’m typically Cosmopolitan, I wouldn’t say it’s disastrous.

Example. When you’re speaking with Horion if you invite him into your Camp, he explain his theory of a Shayardene-led Commonwealth has Theurgy not been refine by Karagon. He then goes on to the say, on his travels he’ll be airing the idea of a Great League as opposed to a tyrannic Hegemony.

So it’s not beyond the realm of belief that a Homelander MC can still have the backing of the other provinces; just that all the provinces will be free and led by their own, not by one ruler between them. An alliance, not an Empire.

It’s even stated that Erezza will probably not take kindly to their unification being broken up again. On the frontline against Halassurq they’re more United than ever, and you best believe that if the Karagon Hegemony falls they will not be forced or submitted into another similar power structure likely. A Cosmopolitan MC who tries that route will have to tread carefully.

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@ringleader I always choose the option to Horion that says “I will not stop until I have build a new Hegemony over the ashes of the old”. My MC wants to overthrown the current government, not dismantle the country. He wants to be the new Thaumatarch.

Any talk of dismantling the country, nationalist sentiment on provinces or anything tgat threatens my MC’s vision for the country is to be rejected.

A few months ago, I asked Mr. @havenstone if we would be able to crush the other rebellions and make sure we are the only ones in charge, and he said that we will indeed be able to enter in conflict with them.

My MC’s vision is clear: replace the government with him as the new leaded, dispatch seditious rebels like Radmar and the helot firebrand who question my judgment, and crush any other rebellions. This talk about cooperating with other rebellions is nonsense. Either i lead or not, no exceptions. We were the first to rise against te Hegemony and now other opportunists want to steal our spot. Not on my watch, fall in line or step aside.

Only a united Hegemony can stand against it’s enemies. The Lacconiers and other separatists would doom us all to live in a fictitious country where we would have to “fill in the gaps” as Mr. Havestone said, in regards to culture, religion or anything else. The truth is Shayard is dead, and with good reason.

Besides, we have seen in real life that alliances are not set in stone. Ukrain gave up nuclear weapons in exchange of protection, and ended up steamrolled anyway. I doubt that in a world where the provinces are independent, a Shayardene would bother that Erezza is under attack. The border with Hallasurq is far away, out of sight out of mind.

Only a strong Hegemony can withstand the mighty of Hallasurq. Who would stand against the Angels Eclect anyway? We were born to lead, not to follow.

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So why even rebel if its all about beating Hallasurq?

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@Sowe My MC needs to have a long term plan. My plan is to find a way to end Harrowing, but whether we like or not, the country will be vulnerable after a rebellion, or multiple ones like Mr. Havenstone hinted. It would be the best time for Hallasurq to strike, while we are on our knees. That’s why i believe changing the government is necessary, but we need to prepare against our enemies on the outside.

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@thestrangemonkey A real ruthless outlook. Though I can’t say it wouldn’t work, it wouldn’t be the approach I would have taken.

I can understand your idea of putting down other rebellions - after all, if they’re rebelling against the same thing as you but not with you firstly they’re less effective and secondly it may not be under the same principles.

Maybe. Or maybe a united Grand League could achieve the exact same goal. Why wouldn’t the provinces fight together, against a common foe that would tie yet another noose around their necks?
A central government is all well and good in times of war, but even in peacetime there’s hundreds of leagues between provinces and warzones.

Yeah, far away until all of a sudden you have an Empires forces at your door, with a strong foothold on the “land bridge” country to your side of the continent. You think they’d stop at Erezza? That’s as much living in a fantasy as the Laconniers wanting to revert back to the Shayard of three centuries ago. Halassurq will be everyone’s problem. Not just Erezza.

Those who aren’t as faithful. Even in Faithful playthroughs there are those who believe the Angels Eclect in the Thaumatarchy’s sense are false - Linos and potentially the MC as an example of that. And there’s bound to be many variations and heresies across the Hegemony who regard the Eclect and the Order of Angels as very different things.

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@ringleader I think you overestimate the eagerness of an alliance. A common evil doesn’t always unite people as quickly as it should. An historical example: the Mongols were steamrolling Europe and the Middle East, while France, far away from them, was sending envoys and even made an alliance. Why wouldn’t one of these post-Hegemonic states ally with Hallasurq? Become a vassal state? Your suggestion would work if all the former states united as one, but what if not?

The less states in the League, the weaker it becomes. Imagine if the armies of the League were on Erezza, and Nyryal attacked from the rear? My belief is that a united Hegemony, with a single army, can be much more effective at combating Hallasurq. Besides, if the Hallasurq ruler had a spare sister or cousin, I’m sure he would be much more willing to agree to a political marriage with the leader of a strong, united Hegemony than with the ruler of a petty kingdom among many.

Having the clergy on our side as an Eclect would be powerful. I think we get a bonus on morale if we are an Eclect in the fight in the forest. Having a larger than life figure as a leader would be powerful propaganda and make our decisions unlikely to be as questioned as if we were simply an ordinary human. Linos is an example. He knows the power of religion. And so do we.

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Because it won’t work, the Holy Roman empire was a mess that failed to use innovation and had they been allowed slightly longer would probably have failed to successfully industrialise.

It won’t work in the koinon to get the co-dependent trade in basic resources going in Europe we had to start with the European Coal and Steel Community that eventually became the European Union.
But the foremost goal of the ECSC predecessor to the EU was to facilitate trade in crucial basic resources and also to do it in such a way that pulling a Weimar and diverting massive resources to built a hidden army would become impossible.

While it kinda, sorta worked for us in Western Europe in the post-WW2 context there are several factors that ensure it won’t work, or at least won’t work all that well for post-Hegemony Shayard.

First of all while it is called the European Union you must never forget that the father of the European Project was the United States, although the Union had many mothers in the form of our own intellectuals as well. But the US were indispensable for getting it off the ground particularly in the immediate post-war years when they were rebuilding us with the Marshall plans.

And I think I mentioned this before but the kind of basic trade in goods and services we do in the Union today we did not do before. In the old setup most European powers got their basic resources from their own colonies, although Germany being late to the colonial games was a unique case and being late to claim colonies was what put Germany on the path to becoming an Ersatz nation.
However in the old days we did not trade much basic resources with each other, or the few other industrialised nations outside of Europe (aka the USA), preferring to trade the surplus finished products of our industry with our neighbours, not the basic resources that fuelled said industry in the first place.

Indeed we even discouraged trade in basic resources keeping some smaller European nations from significantly industrialising in the first place by levying insane taxes on basic resources since we wanted them to buy finished products from us, not basic resources.

In-game an independent Erezza may prefer to trade finished products for crops with Shayard and discourage trade in basic resources to foster Shayardene dependency on their industries, which secures them their food supplies and a nice source of profit while keeping Shayard almost as pastoral and backwards as Halassurq itself would go for. Koinon or no. The Koinon is more likely to get Shayard slightly better prices on industrial goods, through harmonisation of some trade laws, but that’s it.

So, for the summary of the flaws of Horion’s Koinon when it comes to industrialisation and modernisation:

  1. The post-war remnants of the former Hegemony lack anything remotely comparable to US enlightened self-interest to help build the thing.

  2. The only other super power is Halassur and the Koinon is very much not in line with their current policy objectives, those being the pillaging and genocide of Erezza and Karagond proper, the Anschluss of Nyral and keeping Shayard down by keeping it pastoral, backwards and feudal.

2.1) Even in the highly unlikely event that Halassur has a change of heart, and likely its own revolution to cause such a foreign policy sea change my mc would very much prefer not to end up in the Hallasurq sphere of influence in the way Western Europe used to be firmly in the US sphere.

  1. The older Unions that were not Empires (nominally) under one state tended to prefer trade in luxury goods over basic resources. Koinon or no this would greatly hinder Shayard if it were no longer part of a larger state with better access to the resources other than farmland.

  2. Lack of proper industrialisation and modernisation will eventually deteriorate even the current breadbasket state of Shayard once the modernised, industrialised parts of the world learn even better (theurgic) agriculture. For a real world example just look at Ukraine which used to be Europe’s bread basket but is currently very underdeveloped.

If you plan on open warfare. Which is why my mc puts more stock in finding something that can serve as a credible WMD threat to mutually assured destruction to keep Halassur mostly off his back on cold war footing post-war.

The only part on which my mc would seem to be in perfect agreement with yours.

Some fracturing post-war is probably inevitable, at least as Havenstone plans to write it as no matter what our various mc’s goals are it will currently be impossible for us to vanquish our internal rivals and competing rebellions before or shortly after the Hegemony which means the mc’s faction can at best end up as the paramount faction standing at the beginning of the fifth game.

Which means means the post-war situation is highly likely to resemble warlord era China at the beginning of the last game no matter what our mc’s do or don’t do.
Does not mean it has to stay that way, I mean even the KMT were finally starting to make some perceptible headway when their momentum was cut short by the Marco Polo incident that changed everything. Before that an increasing number of warlords seemed to be preparing for the inevitable by building their own fortunes to either flee abroad or try to become that China’s new billionaire class once the central government got around to dealing with them.

Shayard seems to be too big and too densely populated right now for Halassur to comfortably “digest”, from what scant information we know they seem to want Shayard as a client/puppet state while reserving their outright genocide for Karagond and Erezza while wanting to Anschluss Nyral and of course plunder Erezza’s vast mineral riches for themselves.

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