Well, who knows if it’ll really be like the CFA or the EU. I mean, those two are very modern states, and the Hegemony feels like something that’s on the border between a medieval kingdom and a more centralised entity. I always figured the MC would have a lot of freedom to do whatever, if they go along with the Leaguers. Maybe it’d be less of a confederation and more of something like Yugoslavia. Well, that doesn’t really paint a better picture, but still, the idea that the Koinon would keep being ineffective and decadent is, hopefully, something I’d wnt to see some MCs proving wrong.
Since Horion was originally named Platon Leliatou, I always figured his vision for a Koinon would be heavily decentralised small republics that each work as Plato’s own, with all the less democratic elements that imply.
Well, you can always play as a helot who just wants a fairer system for Harrowing and doesn’t really mind the slavery and oppresion of the Hegemony beyond that. And who knows what Cabel is at this point. Maybe his end-goal is the restoration of the Shayardene monarchy as well. That’d complicate things for your MC.
Havenstone did say somewhere Cabel is less Southern and less noble friendly, if he does want a kingdom I bet it is more of a chiefdom over the anglo-saxon parts of Shayard only.
You’ve just inadvertently given the evidence yourself that in all likelihood the Koinon will remain very decadent and ineffective at bringing about any sort of meaningful change for those who are not already part of the elite. It certainly won’t end the caste system and it won’t abolish slavery in practice.
Unless the material and political circumstances actually change by a whole friggin’ lot a helot under any other name is still a subhuman slave, doesn’t matter if it’s serfdom, a kafala-esque system with debt bondage added into it or something else entirely.
Ah, I must have missed that one. I guess it makes sense for the son of a yeoman leader.
Well, I was just making an off-beat suggestion based on Horion’s old namesake and their nephew or niece that we haven’t met yet. Sure, the Great League could end up being what you said, but it might also be something else entirely. Considering the proponents of the Koinon are all aristocrats, there are probably more than a few who don’t see a problem with the current helot-yeoman-aristo system. But I also think the MC might have a role to play beyond being a stooge for the Leaguers who want to rally behind a successful rebel, especially one who has the support of merchants and priests.
How does your MC plan to deal with the blood neccessary to keep the Hegemony afloat, idlun? You seem to have a very long strategy for the other games.
Cut all wasteful and luxury spending, preferably including the blood-guzzling ward. Then preferably levy a blood tax to keep up agriculture spending. If that is not feasible, switch to Halassurq system and use children by lottery, including those born to (former) elites. On the r&d side switch to alternative sources of energy, such as steam, water and coal to power as much of society as possible to further reduce (future) need for blood aether
Preferably increase mechanization and labour efficiency in agriculture to reduce the need for rural workers and re-organize the current, giant plantations run for the profit of the “nobles” into worker owned cooperatives.
In short reduce reliance on magic by as much as possible and switch to alternative energy sources for anything that can possibly be switched over. In the long-term make non-magical science and r&d just as important and prestigious socially as theurgy.
Under no circumstances will my mc keep the caste system of the nightmare religion where helots are nothing but blood cattle as that would also mean resigning himself to be eventually harrowed as blood-cattle himself as he is unwilling to feign belief and become a pretend-“eclect” and pretty much the same goes for playing the games of decadence of the nobility, he’s unwilling to pretend “lost nobility” and accepting “ennoblement” would imply he’d recognize the higher authority of whoever is granting it, in addition to not wanting to play the games of decadence.
A “noble” mc maybe, I don’t see any place among the Leaguers for a helot, except as a stooge or a symbol, not even one who is an Eclect (which my mc is absolutely not).
And this is the problem in the current nightmare caste system I really don’t see them taking orders from a helot, any helot. The Koinon seems to be a thing very much formulated as a reaction to what provincial nobles see as increasing abuse of their Xthonos given rights by the Hegemony authorities.
I don’t imagine they’d react at all well to my mc abolishing the caste system and all noble privileges along with it and putting them on the same legal footing as all former helots as mere citizens.
You know with time our Pc are becoming far more similar that any one could have thought. Like we started as polar opposites. If your rebellion fail. you could come to megachurch as the organization will be elective and meritocratic also the Vatican Switzerland Rim wouldnt have slavery and any bloody usage at all. Academy bank and all that would be no magical except I suppose the other kingdoms embassies. Also you could chat with citizens Mules and citizens cats that could be very therapeutic.
I hardly doubt @Havenstone can put give Mules citizenship as everyone will take it as a joke lol. When I am not kidding. If I could make a variable of a religious stuff Mules will be considered sacred and same kevels humans. Also Mr Pumpkins as Archbishop
The problem is the church part, as my mc won’t even pretend to be pious and never was very good at saying “merciful angels” without throwing up in his mouth.
It also goes against his firm belief that church and state ought to be firmly separated and the free religious market duly regulated.
He also doesn’t like a gaggle of independent, sovereign states arising out of the former Hegemony as that would weaken us immeasurably whether the lot is still nominally bound together by a “Koinon” or not. If it is really necessary a free-trade zone and one country two systems might be a possible compromise but not much more than that.
Mara is totally atheist lol. It is the fact people called her chosen lol so he uses that as has zero military knowledge and only tool is charismatic aura. And all leaders with charismatic aura ended with something similar to religion sect anyway. But is a great tool to masses and have a big part of empires believe in you are holy makes easier sell stuff and your temples are tendrils of economic power and intelligence. that spread for multiple territory. also who wouldn’t like go to a temple with kittens as priests and you could play and cuddle them i assure that would helping lot of people lol.
Like this little fella Policho died from a cardiac genetic problem.
Horion seems much too open-minded for a poll tax. At worst, I would bet on a literacy test. Horion would probably be happy to disenfranchise stupid nobles.
@Havenstone What is the status of musical notation in the XOR world? I’m wondering how feasible it would be to have musician spies writing their observations as music.
And how much would prospective voters need to pay for a “literacy test” or would it, instead, require a formal diploma? Both would have the effect of also disenfranchising people like my mc, particularly the formal diploma because the Hegemony certainly never deigned to formally educate my mc and my mc is not going to take elementary school at this stage.
Of course in the Koinon Shayardene voters could only ever elect Shayardene officials who then indirectly elect the officials of the Koinon and the Shayardene head of state, as well as the other heads of state would have veto powers over anything the Koinon might want to do.
For that matter what would the requirements be to even stand for election in Shayard or the Koinon?
A particularly fiendish thing I can come up with that would disenfranchise all people like my mc, even if they can stomach or do or would manage to obtain titles of nobility is a “born free/freeborn” requirement, much like becoming US President requires you to be a “natural born” citizen.
I do not dispute that the effect of a literacy test would be disenfranchising people. Had you followed the literacy test link, it specifically listed examples of its use disenfranchising people. I merely think you picked the wrong method by which Horion at worst might wish to restrict the franchise.
Except that it would not disenfranchise stupid nobles since they are educated and would have a diploma or would simply be entitled to vote by right of being freeborn nobles, no matter if they might be functionally illiterate.
Even our backwards, backwoods INT 1 noble can read and write after all.
The response to a “freeborn” requirement is easy enough. A variation of the “Quaker Oath” from the American Civil War. “I swear that from the moment of my birth, I owed no one unrequited labor.”
That depends on implementation. Would stupid nobles pass at a higher rate than illiterate non-nobles? Probably.
INT 1 helots can’t read, hence the INT 1 reference.
Which would seem to require a fresh civil war against the new order of Shayard and the Koinon in that case, as the successful implementation of a “freeborn” requirement would of itself imply the people who oppose it do not hold enough power to prevent its implementation, which would be exceedingly likely in the Koinon Horion and Teren envisage. They may or may not personally oppose it, but that would also mean exactly squat in this case.
Thus there should not be such a “test” at all as it would be a blatant attempt to disenfranchise large swathes of (former) yeomen, drudges, lower class city folk but especially helots.
Yep, though I don’t know if the INT 0 noble can actually read. But, yeah, INT 1 helots can’t in-game.
Given that literate helots are only 1 in 1000, I’m not sure nobles would need anything more than a literacy test to dominate the electorate. My impression of Horion was that he would be perfectly happy to disenfranchise any noble that actually managed to fail a literacy test.
Agreed.
I suspect the Hegemony probably does not go to any effort to actually encourage nobles to learn to read. I doubt the Hegemony would pick many illiterate nobles as Aristarchs, but I think the Hegemony would view illiterate nobles as less of a threat.
Particularly if one needs to pay a hefty fee to be able to take the stupid test in the first place. Still for the very rich, such as nobles I’d imagine there would be ample opportunities at corruption here. Having to pay would also disenfranchise people like my mc and some yeomen who might be able to read better than most nobles but don’t have the wealth.
Another version of this I could see is that the literacy test might only be enforced for people lacking sufficient property and thus wealth, but lack of wealth also reduces the ability to pay for the literacy test in the first place. Plus if the test is arbitrary they can always make lower caste people fail at disproportionally high rates.
They can also include arbitrary cultural elements into the test, like the current Swiss naturalization test does and focus these cultural questions on practices and traditions mostly or only relevant to nobles that, again, most literate helots wouldn’t know. For example "What items does it consist of and when is it appropriate for a third-year Lyceum student to wear morning dress?
The intelligent helot mc just might pass anyway but that is only because the story specifically establishes them as practically a walking encyclopedia in contrast to Yebben’s kind intelligence, which is less like an encyclopedia of useful and useless knowledge and more of a math savant.
In short, no matter Horion’s or Teren’s personal views on the subject I don’t think the literacy test would disenfranchise (m)any dumb or functionally illiterate nobles in practice. Whereas it might still disenfranchise actually literate lower class and caste people.
I do think they would want at least the possibility of “cultural questions” incorporated as a future safeguard against a possibly growing population of literate lower class people.
Lastly another thing they can do to disenfranchise is to go with a first past the post system as that alone is also guaranteed to disenfranchise a lot of, perhaps even most of the electorate.
It also allows gerrymandering to possibly trap the opposition to only being able to win a few majority-minority districts or something.
My solution for different caste and maintain a meritocracy . Is free education until twelve then a examination public in the Agora where all citizens could check results in base test people would keep study or ended in menial working however rich people with silly children coul pay private acess to academy but in my church they don’t enter or work in my guild. So any former helot if they kids are intelligent or strong could end as intellectual like bankers or merchants and like guards or blacksmith and artisans.
Due churches have delegations in other countries my people could working there so no unemployment. I mean would never be flashy as mages and we will be a boring nation like Switzerland but hey a good peaceful life is cool.
My point was that with literate helots being so rare, there is no need for anything other than a literacy test to effectively lock helots out of the electorate. The literacy tests could be administered for free and all but 1 in 1000 helots would still fail. Horion valued intelligence so it seems to me that he would have been content with if not outright preferred an outcome where stupid nobles are denied the franchise. A system where the brightest helots are able to qualify for the franchise would be better for the nobles from a propaganda standpoint while still not threatening the nobles’ hold on power.
a 0 INT noble does still know how to read (unlike a 0 or 1 INT helot) – literacy is one of the advantages of being a noble. Your problem if you’re a 0 INT noble isn’t the literal inability to read, but the inability to do much with what you read. As it says in the game if you pick that path, you find “absorbing all those facts and ideas” by reading simply “too much of a struggle”.
I still wonder whether there is anything like INT -1. My impression was INT 0 was supposed to be average. So that means some would be below average.
Sure, but I still think there would be more measures in place for disenfranchisement still. As I think the nobles would also want to deny yeomen and the poor but freeborn urban folks a significant say and they would be a bigger threat assuming somewhere between 1 in 20 and 1 in 100 of them can read and write and we’ll pretend for now that the literacy test will be both free and not include nearly impossible to answer “cultural” questions. So they might still go for an FPTP system with heavy gerrymandering and/or an upper house, where all the decisions are really made open exclusively to nobles, and that would be just on the Shayardene and provincial level, for the Koinon you can make it even less democratic and transparent by combining the flaws of both the EU and the Confederate states and cranking up the dial to 11.
I also still think that for actually being able to run for office instead of just vote they might still go with a “freeborn” requirement to deny all former helots, even ennobled ones, if there are any of those, the ability to effectively hold elected office or a spot on a possible upper house.
But, yeah, INT 1 helots can’t in-game.