I don’t mind Breden being the traitor as long as it’s well written really, which I’m sure it will be, judging by the work Havenstone’s already put in. But maybe there’s a swerve where she was “forced” to reveal their plans to protect someone or something like that? That’d make it more interesting for me.
Can’t wait for the reveal.
I’m hoping that Breden is the traitor, however it’s been done under extreme duress. We don’t really know much about Breden’s history at all. My ideal scenario is that Breden’s the traitor, however it wasn’t willing. We know Breden’s a bit of a coward, right? Perhaps they were captured before, betrayed by someone they trusted, loved even. Then tortured, broken, watched loved ones die, and then someone comes along and ‘rescues’ Breden, offering an out. We’ll let you go if you just do this for us… of course you’ll need to move to a new place, have a new start. And it starts off all rather benign the requests for little bits of information and before you know it there’s been a hole dug with no way out other than to keep on digging. And after you’re directly responsible for that first Harrowing, for all those who trusted you being dragged off, and murdered, (or not) how do you come clean? And of course if you don’t keep up the spying then your treachery will be revealed to everyone. Of course you’re very selective about what information you do leak, trying to give that which will do the least harm to your group. But still a traitor’s a traitor.
That’s my theory. My other’s it’s your father who betrayed your group, he followed you one day, didn’t like what he saw and so reported it all. However they did have their eye on recruiting Breden as a kryptast which is why Breden wasn’t dragged up.
Ramidel
2206
Havenstone has indicated that we may not even get a reveal, or even learn if there even is a traitor to begin with!
I think the story rather demands we get an answer to that question one way or another (unless we choose not to look and turn a blind eye to it). Some questions need answers.
Well, see the conversation around post 1747 for how I’m currently intending to write it. The question will get an answer – just not a wholly unambiguous one.
2 Likes
WulfyK
2209
@DenPobedy I’m 100% sure they have some kind of unit flags/banners, but the real question is if these are used to designate units or are personal insignia of individual officers. @Havenstone, does the Hegemony have permanent military units like the roman legions with a long history and own traditions or are all groups of phalangites raised and regrouped/disbanded ad hoc as neccesarily?
Lazerith
2210
Breden gets called for a harrowing if you don’t save the group at first from being fed to the machine. It is possible your father sold the group out to keep you safe or something, would make sense. As much of an ass as he seems to be, he obviously cares, as there are slips every now and then. Also, would make sense why he is so distant from the group, because he regrets putting you in such a position in the first place maybe?
Oh, and about the immortal lich emperor thing… Que evil laughter Yes…
1 Like
I’ll revisit this once you’ve finished writing it. First I’ll see how it’s implemented.
Sometimes ambiguity is a wonderful tool, sometimes it’s cheap and gives an extremely unsatisfying experience, and sometimes it just doesn’t work. I can understand the reasons for wanting it, that sometimes there are just tough decisions to make with no right or wrong answers and no certainties. However, that doesn’t always give the most satisfying playing experience.
Which isn’t to say the player should always be satisfied, unsettling them with a difficult decision where they don’t know for certain if they’re making the right choice can make for a memorable game. I do like hard choices.
I’ll likely be talking a lot about it once it’s done.
3 Likes
I’m feeling like they simply tracked Ales Stonehewer down, or an alastor found her more and more. It is the simplest possiblity, Occam’s Razor and what not.
That does not mean we should no longer continue to search for a possible traitor, can’t have some one giving away our location. It’s one thing to beat some alastors at an uprising, but another entirely to fight them when they come ready for a fight.
1 Like
WulfyK
2213
I would be extremely unsatisfied if someone is unambiguously revealed as the traitor because it would destroy all suspense of the traitor search during replays.
@WulfyK Would it?
A lot of my favourite movies have a reveal at the end, one which makes watching it for the second time a completely different, but no less satisfying experience. The first time that reveal may come as a complete surprise. You’re never going to recapture that. The Usual Suspects, Fight Club, The Prestige, Memento, The Sixth Sense, (haven’t seen the last) are different movies once you know how they end and their central conceits.
The second time you watch it you know how things will end, but the enjoyment is in seeing how it was all set up, finding the clues that you may have missed the first time around. With less focus on the mystery it’s a chance to appreciate it from a different perspective, admiring the craft that went into building up for the reveal.
Then again I do also like ambiguity where you can argue about what an ending actually means.
Games aren’t movies of course.
Of course now I’m thinking of it there is a game I’ve played where I desperately wanted an ambiguous ending. The Whispered World is a graphic adventure (one of my favourite genres) and I thought it was a lovely game right up until the ending. Some ambiguity there would have spared it. Letting us have a single choice would have made it so much better than just saying “the ending is this”.
I think ambiguity can work, just it depends on how it’s done. Anyway no point discussing it in regards to Choice of Rebels until we see how Havenstone implements things.
3 Likes
WulfyK
2215
The difference between movies or books and games is that in the first the outcome is preset by the authors while in the later the player influences the outcome by his/her decisions.
In a non-interactive work, the viewer/reader usually knows many things that are unknown to characters but can’t influence their decisions anyway, and a reveal usually adds just one more such things. The viewer could pay attention to all kind of different aspects when s/he watches a movie again, it will always be the same story.
But in a choice of game there should be many different possible stories that play out and end differently, and in a good game all of these branches should make good and consistent stories, stories that a player would like to replay.
I don’t like to play in a way that will surely lead the MC to her/his doom or killes characters for no reason and I have the impression that most people play the same way, and wouldn’t like to deliberately take an obviously inferior path.
The search for the traitor creates a certain atmosphere and knowing for sure who it is would damage and most likely completely destroy it. If I knew for sure about the identity of the traitor, this would make me know which choices are always right and which are always wrong for an entire storyline and that’s something very bad in my opinion.
Now the game already offers a possibility to chase Breden away and to drive Radmar into suicide, the latter requiring the deaths of Poric and Alless too. If the player knows who the traitor is, it would make at least one of these paths an obviously useless cruelty and I doubt that many would like to replay this path, unless they play an evil MC.
An unambiguous reveal would turn these tough decisions into simple black and white choices and thus destroy a lot of the depth that Choice of Rebels currently has. Therefore I like and support @Havenstone’s plan to keep doubts about the traitor’s identity and hope that such doubts will exist in-universe too.
3 Likes
You make some valid points. I’m going to bow out of this discussion, at least until the game’s finished.
Alright so, I’ve been looking a lot at all the WIPs and I gotta say, this is lookin great! I love the world and even though the browser reloaded and made me restart <_>…which means I haven’t actually finished a run through yet, I just had to say you got my support.~
1 Like
WulfyK
2220
I’m sure that Zvad was not the one who betrayed the group to the alastors. But I won’t bet against you since he could betray the MC later.
Drakeye
2221
I’ve learned that if you have evidence that makes potential for a number of people to be traitors and who you choose is always right or never right can be kinda funny and allows for a free choice if you add in reactions or potential risks to each option giving new experiance with each one
Real life is ambiguous and a lot of the time you have to do things without knowing 100% if they are the right choice or the wrong one. I like the idea that we will never get a clear answer about our decisions, there’s already a lot of that in the game already. Is killing the de Merres wrong? I think you can make an argument either way, and the game doesn’t try to tell us what we should have done.
But on the other hand I play this game because it is different from my real life (obviously I am not a partisan in the forest). Sometimes this kind of ending can feel cheap and unsatisfying. I think I have to agree with @FairyGodfeather and just wait until the game is finished.
Regarding the traitor will we be able to hold a trial with the evidence collected? A court-martial type trial perhaps?
@Havenstone Better yet a hold a vote or maybe make it to where bye the time you start looking you already have a council of say 5 or 6 people that you trust (not completely though) who along with you will review evidence and maybe you can add the option to add a police like force to your army those who would watch the other soldiers like military police and you can have them collect the evidence but then it comes down to who watches the watchers as they do their duty and also can you add the option to grow up with a life long friend that you would know from childhood to either the helot or nobles gameplay or both and maybe if you don’t add military police can you add the ability to have an elite fighting force under your mc’s command like knights (they would get the best armor and weapons and shields and bows/crossbows maybe) in short they would be like your royal guard also on a side note how can you get the mercenary who you paid for to train your troops to stay with you
WulfyK
2225
@Generikb I fear if the MC tries to intorduce something like that this could lead to much dissent among the rebels. Some of them would start to think that the MC doesn’t want to liberate the helotry but to rule instead of the Hegemonial authorities.
@Havenstone everything stated above makes me wonder if the MC could lose control over the traitor hunt leading to unpredictable and probably nasty consequences.
For example, if s/he tells Zvad that s/he suspects Breden, but then romanfes him/her, could this lead Zvad into believing that Breden is indeed a kryptast who seduced the group’s leader and that he must take the neccessary counter-measures?
Or if s/he suspects both Breden and Radmar and this somehow leakes out to them and they would start accusing each other causing a split of the rebel group.
