I genuinely think the issues between these two countries can be resolved without war and it’s worth pushing for a peaceful settlement as much as possible, war should always be the last resort
This is just not going to happen though, it’s not an “anti-revenge narrative” for somebody to stop being your friend after you murder their brother, that’s just normal human behaviour.
So every single MC should still worship at Leon’s feet after being murdered by him?
I don’t get this attitude that, to hate Leon for his actions, we have to be self inserting. I don’t self insert. I do have to be able to understand the character I’m RPing in some way, however, and I cannot understand a mage who would forgive Leon for flat out murdering them instead of taking a breath and a month to actually try to find something to clear the mage.
It’s his job, as king, to bring calm to the insanity that followed the saintess’s death. He had every right to point out to any pressuring him that the mage’s actions made no sense, that they had sacrificed again and again for Param and its people, so what did they have to gain by killing the saintess? In other words, don’t just fly off the handle. If the mage is, indeed, guilty, then they will be punished, but they deserve to know the truth. The mage earned that much in all they had done, and the saintess deserved to have the truth of her death revealed–the reason why this person who fought to keep Params safe suddenly/supposedly killed the woman. A month, and they would’ve had the answer. But he was too pissed off to wait and too eager to murder the mage because he thought he had been betrayed (thanks to that bitch, Ante).
Leon is an idiot, but he also had no faith in the mage at all and chose to believe the bile Ante fed him from the beginning. It’s not “self-inserting” to play a mage who realizes that truth. Just because people’s mages aren’t ready to forgive and forget doesn’t make them self-inserts, it simply means they have different reasoning.
Playing a mage who goes back to Leon for “the drama and angst” sounds a hell of a lot more like self-inserting than playing one who wants revenge or, at the very least, will refuse to have anything to do with Leon or Param. Because, in real life, if your bff or significant other tries to murder you, you aren’t going to go back and be like, “It’s fine, no problem!” Well, unless you’re a frigging masochist, anyway. And not the good kind of masochist.
Really? People you bled for spit on you, cheer for your death, and salivate over the idea of you burning at the stake and you’re supposed to just, what, shrug it off? It was either kill the saintess (thanks to Ante’s interference) or let everyone in Param be killed. At this point, if my mage had it to do over again, she’d have gotten her own ass far away (and Aunt Bess’s) and let the damned blow them all to hell. She’s done offering her blood and life to save theirs. Other than Aunt Bess, Saine, and Ilya, the rest of them turned on the mage and turned into bloodthirsty asshats.
Also take into consideration that, after all the mage suffered, they were dragged out of death back into life and immediately forced into slavery if they don’t agree to obey the person who brought them back (agreeing actually gives the illusion of choice). So the mage is going to be pretty effed in the head at this point. It’s no unreasonable to consider they are just too broken at this point to do anything but destroy everyone–it’s not like they have any reason not to, if they view what’s happened to them in a certain light or they are simply too messed up in the head to feel anything but unbridled rage against the world for what’s happened. I’m not justifying it–I think the “burn it all to the ground” path is pretty grim, but I get why some mages would walk down that path.
My mage views her a bit differently, at least at the moment. So far, Thalia hasn’t gone so far past a line that my mage wants to fight her. She’s just kind of empty at the moment, except for feeling like she’s nothing. If my mage gets some of her other emotions back, the first thing she’ll be concerned for is her own freedom. I think she’s had enough of being used as a tool/weapon by assholes who think they have the right to do so.
Justice is appropriately applied vengeance. The thing that separates the two isn’t so much morality, but the ability to decide how far to go in exacting it.
And before someone tries to throw this at me as a reason Leon was “right”, Leon made no effort to determine the truth. If you make no effort to determine the facts, you aren’t capable of doling out justice–justice can’t be affected when it’s based on a lie or half truth.
Agreed. Though, in this case, killing Leon and Ante is entirely right for my mage, and it’s justice. They unjustly murdered her. Now, they get to pay for it.
Agreed.
Yeah, that seemed to be the sentiment. And it sounds an awful lot like people who spout crap about how people defending themselves and their family from attackers are evil. I’ve never understood that mentality, but I suppose it explains why some people can’t comprehend a mage that dislikes their murderers.
It still counts.
I think we both staked our positions but can you really say that leon had zero reason to take the actions he did, selfish or otherwise.
Fact is in you murdering the saintess is did betray him. He gave you the chance to exonerate yourself, and you didn’t take it. In some cases you may have antagonized him.
I keep seeing blame to ante as if she’s solely responsible as well. Let’s ignore the fact that her only flaw written in the story is not trusting you (which I’ve justified before). We know of her feeling but before that she’s still a competent spy. It’s not like she got into her very important position through luck.
Mage got the short straw but I keep seeing the black n white thinking.
Let’s take the facts of the case
-mage/ war hero/ royal mage.
-self admitted that he was somewhat related to the shadow leader of salitina or whatever.
-sibling killed the previous king.
-holds new and dangerous magics.
-after winning the war, not giving an explanation, disappeared for 3 months.
-when returning, didn’t tell anyone, came in secret and attacked the church, (or used the brain washing drug, I always dumped enchantment but you at least murdered antes guards and the saintess)
-when interviewed you refused/pleaded but gave no admission of guilt or explanation.
-possibly attempted an escape attempt.
Does nobody get that even when saving others here you don’t look like the good guy. Only reason you were exonerated was because ilya knew you for a long time. Did she see the good in you or was her judgement poor and got lucky.
So, let the record show that Leon fully believed that we were innocent and was primarily motivated by outside pressure.
That’s WORSE than if he thought we were guilty. If he legitimately believed we were innocent, and our execution was a bad idea, he shouldn’t have done it. Being a leader often means making unpopular decisions that will nonetheless benefit the people. Sure, some people use that as an excuse to never listen to others’ advice, but this is too far in the opposite direction. He KNEW it was a bad idea to kill us. He KNEW something fishy was going on, but he did it anyway because it was expected of him. At least if he thought we were guilty, I’d get the decision more. It’d still be dumb bc of our use as an information source, but it’d be a dumb that I’d understand.
@comradelenin Bruh leon really did not have a choice if u consider that they just finished a war, people have not settle down from it and he has to watch his back constantly because of the traditionalist that want that arcadian blood which are the nobility that can take him out of the throne at any moment if he is not careful and with the saintess dead he had to be careful with the church because is not the king that really rules in that nation but the church, so yeah from what @Terin_Lost just revealed now i literally can’t hate this guy because the ruler is never the one with power but just a figurehead and the real power are those they lead and even those they lead can decide to take away the leader’s control if the leader does not satisfy the country or fails to meet they expectations
I’m not saying that hating Leon is self inserting. Hell I hate every one of the Arcadian crew except for Eli. What I’m saying is that some people are taking Leon’s betrayal waaaay too personally to the point where it seems like Leon hurt the reader personally instead of their mage being the one betrayed. That’s what I meant.
See this is what I was talking about. I’m not gonna apply my real life ideals and choices to a fictional character in a book. In real life I won’t entertain being betrayed by my significant other but I’ll sure as hell do it in a book because it’s fictional and it’s entertaining. I’m not saying y’all are not allowed to hate Leon, just that some of y’all act like he betrayed you and not your mage
Lol then what’s the problem? All I’ve been trying to say this whole time is that don’t try to justify burning it all to the ground. I don’t think I ever said that you can’t because I sure as hell will do it in one of my playthroughs😭
Guys, let’s just agree that both pro-Leon and anti-Leon sides are valid and make good points. So let’s all agree to disagree here. Both parties are also free to express their opinions here.
With that said, I want to give my two cents on what I think about Leon. When I finished Book 1, I thought Leon was saving the MC from the Church’s prosecution which could have been worse than a simple burn-at-a-stake death sentence, even if he acted emotionally rather than rationally. And so I was willing to forgive Leon as long as he was able to give me a good explanation for his decision after my MC is resurrected and reunited with the White Fang gang.
But after playing Book 2 demo and seeing his reasons when he talked with Saine, any inclination I had for forgiveness had all evaporated. While the Church does have power (mostly influential power), the King (in this case, Leon) has the final say in everything because the King has the ultimate authoritative power over the kingdom. In other words, he could’ve just kept the Mage locked up until Ilya discovers the truth, which he himself admitted is something he could’ve done with his power. But instead, he decided to just sentence the Mage to death because he felt betrayed. Yes, both Julius and Ante have contributed to sowing doubts in Leon’s heart, but ultimately it is Leon’s lack of faith in the Mage that I can’t forgive.
While my MC doesn’t hate Leon enough to want to kill him, he certainly hates him enough to want to slap him in the face at this point, but he is definitely giving Leon the cold shoulder from this point onwards. Any warmth and friendship they’ve had are all gone now.
Ok but you know what would be REALLY entertaining? Blowing him up. Now THAT sounds entertaining.
And now because of him, there’s a risk that MC will go mad, kill everyone from the cast and destroy Param. Good job, Leon 
Nahhh that would be too fast, what is exciting will be to trap leon in our illusions and make our mc and Julius critize him on every decision he makes until we ask leon to stab himself
He’s already haunted by hallucinations, right?
Yeah but the twist in this one we are right there with him and we will keep on touching him and not in any lewd way was my sentence reffering or indicating to and as we are doing that we will strike him down while hiding amongst the illusions to confuse into thinking we are real or we are not while taunting him
I like that.
Hmmm I tend to go for more subtle approaches. There’s no fun in just straight up killing him. Maybe play with his heart a little first. He’s already on the verge of being ruined by his own guilt soooo maybe fan the flames first before making him go kaboom🤭
I wonder what Pav thinks of the mess this forum has become?
I’ve never seen a thread do this sort of loops before, I will admit. For something which supposedly has been going in circles, topic wise, this game sure makes people chatty in the strangest ways
Meanwhile the anti romance thread…
Oh the abusive manipulative ex, you go, gaslight him to tears.
Bleh, I don’t have head to be overtly xenophobic (am I using that right considering we spent most of our time there?) to Panam. My mage honestly has no idea what he wants to do with the larger conflict so he’s kinda just doing small goods while being a piece of shit
It’s delightfully controversial topic. How many IFs do you know where MC and RO are in this kind of situation?
war for the west, your half sis/ro trying to kill u with sort of good intentions in mind and us choosing the option of excuting them by our sword