You Can Finally Delete Your Saves

From what I’ve seen, the core issue of save-anywhere systems isn’t really one of game philosophy, but of economics and effort.

Huge thanks to @HarrisPS for all the tireless and I believe unpaid work to create a checkpoint template for authors to use. But it’s still a pretty big, challenging endeavor for an author to implement, especially after the game is written, or if the game is very complex, or if the author is new to coding. It’s a bit easier if the author sets out to include a save system from the beginning and can create and call the variables in the right places, but it’s still an organizational challenge, especially for stats and variables that bridge chapters. ChoiceScript is just…really not built to be able to handle that sort of thing easily.

Seeing as an author is only paid via a percentage of sales, the question is: how many more sales will a save system generate? How many readers turn away if reviews say “great game! Wish it had a save system, but I loved it anyway”? How many readers download the game, then fail to buy it at the paywall just for lack of a save system?

In short: Is the juice worth the squeeze?

I don’t know if it’s possible at this point to revamp ChoiceScript to handle saving better. The inventor(s) of the language ultimately decided the juice wasn’t worth the squeeze (and that’s where gaming philosophy played a part, but what’s done is done). If it is possible, and possible to do without breaking everything or giving ChoiceScript a much steeper learning curve, I hope they do it, just to give us something new to fight about.

But I wanted to remind everyone that it’s not as easy as throwing a big switch labeled “Save System.” The code that underlies your favorite ChoiceScript games is very different from the code of your favorite video games, which is in part what makes it so accessible to authors all along the tech-savvy spectrum.

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For what it’s worth, this has actually been talked about for a decade. Search “deleting saves” and years of threads will pop up. This has been a recognized quality-of-life improvement need since basically the week after CoG started publishing series.

Arcadie has absolutely been successful, and that’s great. Whether that’s a success model others will be able to follow, especially if they start in Twine and don’t incubate their game for two years on this forum with a WIP thread that draws in the HG audience, is an open question.

As an outsider looking at the reasons some HG authors give for leaving the company – whether we’re talking Price of Freedom, Arcadie, or Relics – it seems to me in each case there are lessons the CoG team should be learning and changes being made to keep future relationships from getting to that snapping point.

That said, it’s also inevitable that as a company grows, the number of occasional flare-ups, mistakes, and broken relationships around it will also grow. I miss the lower-drama CoG community of a few years ago, but on the plus side there are loads more people engaging than there were then. The drama isn’t an indicator of failure. Notwithstanding the handful of authors who’ve chosen to work elsewhere (plus an additional couple handfuls of writers who might one day complete a WiP) there are still more writers than ever choosing to work here, and more fans reading the work.

I won’t revive the “misreading of GreekWinter” bit of the thread except to say that the best comeback had already been made a few posts up:

That’s all you needed to say, gang. Or “the fact that it’s not literally unplayable is a pretty low bar.”

I’m no coder, but I’d have thought the fact that save plugins have been made as an unpaid spare time project by @CJW (original author of what has increasingly come to be called the Dashingdon save system– though I don’t know how much Don may have tweaked it/added his own version) or @cup_half_empty suggests that it’s not only possible but economical in terms of coding effort. Maybe that’s mistaken? I dunno.

I agree that for non-coder authors like myself, there’s real effort involved in adding checkpoints, but that could be changed either by building checkpoint saving into CS (as we’re almost all asking) or save-at-will (as we’re arguing about).

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ChoiceScript already has “state retention” built in, the current iteration of the save mod just builds atop of that to provide a UI and multiple “slots”. That said, it’s simple in that it uses local device storage. If CoG were to want to implement something similar, there would be the server side to think about as well (so you can access your saves on any device, which would be essential, I think), and that certainly wouldn’t be zero effort. I’m not sure how much overlap the local state has with whatever is currently uploaded to servers to transfer state between games.

As for a “make checkpoints easier for authors” change, from what I’d guess having read and manipulated the ChoiceScript sources, I think that one should be fairly straight-forward (as we know it’s already possible in ChoiceScript, just overly verbose) – but I might be overlooking a nuance a two.

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If CoG ever gets around to adding a local save system, It would already be much better than nothing, since, lets be real, it took a decade to add the ability to remove saves, if we waited for CoG to figure out server saves alongside local, my grandchildren would be the ones to see it implemented.

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Dan Fabulich, who has always been CoG’s computer technology and coding expert, just started working for CoG full-time a few months ago. We can expect to see technical progress happening a lot faster from now on.

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Just dropping in to say it’s not an open question. If you followed Night Market, which never came to the forums, you’d know that. It has never been anything other than twine. It has found success with patreon and a fully funded kickstarter. The official release is days away. Literally a bit over a year from start to finish without the forum or running through dashing. That she accomplished all that before release which is around the corner doesn’t leave that as an open question. Her start on Book 2 looking like it coincides with the full release of Book 1.
The only question that would remain is how you measure success of it after release. But that isn’t something any company can guarantee. And not every CoG/HG/HC title is equally successful, regardless of the forum.

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Yep, that is still the question. :slight_smile: But I’m delighted to hear that Zinnia’s found a devoted audience on Patreon and Kickstarter without needing to directly tap into the CoG/HG/HC community. Hitting your Patreon/Kickstarter goals is success too. And I hope when she brings her game to Steam and itch, it sells as well and widely as Arcadie has. If so, I’ll agree that the question of whether someone can follow in Sofia’s tracks without drawing directly on the CoG audience is closed.

Absolutely, there’s no guarantee – even for equally well-written games. The question isn’t whether anyone can guarantee you success, it’s where you’ve got the best chance of it. My previously published work got a New York Times review and radio promotion on Fresh Air, All Things Considered, and Bill O’Reilly, but that was no guarantee either; I’ve made about three times as much money from my CoG work as I did from that book. I’m grateful for the CoG fandom, and think I have a much better chance at success writing for it than I would taking my work to a different publisher. But that’s based on narrow experience, as you rightly point out, and I’m always ready to revisit my judgment of the odds based on new examples. :slight_smile:

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Hey, thank you so much for the update. I’d like to ask, though. Do you have any plan for renaming the saves? I often just name my file with number, and it’s been pretty confusing when I want to reread the book :frowning:

This is as much of a watershed moment as AI and Neural Networks are to technology

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Then I’m sorry to say that you should probably stick to writing. That’s clearly your speciality.

What I’m saying is not coming out of nowhere, neither is something I’m making up.

Here in the forum and even in this thread it’s a common complain. You got into IF discords or tumblr, it’s still a common complain.

You need to understand, that if you want business to work, you can’t catter to your own wishes or wants, instead you gotta catter to what biggest target wants.

It’s actually quite pretty simple.

Oh is slow mode gone. Are we returning to the war but my wife is about to have a child.

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As unnecessary abrasiveness seems to be yours, Arsene mon frere. :slight_smile:

I didn’t say it was either of those things… just that it’s not likely to be a significant enough trend to back up your speculation that it’s the reason CoG doesn’t have more checkpoint saves.

Unpacking that speculation

Look, if I understand correctly, your hypothesis there ran along these liines:

  1. It’s good business sense for CoG to try to reduce the number of people who request a Steam refund in their first hour of play (or within 48 hours of purchase on Google Play).

  2. Anything CoG does that
    (a) increases the time it takes even speed-readers to finish reading through a game 1-2 times, or
    (b) delays the moment when readers discover that they don’t like a game,
    will result in fewer people requesting a refund within that automatic eligibility period.

  3. Forcing people to replay from scratch if they want to try a different path through the game achieves 2(a) and maybe also 2(b).

  4. Forcing people to replay from scratch if they made a choice whose outcome they don’t like also achieves 2(a) and maybe also 2(b).

  5. But if checkpoint saves were more common, people wouldn’t have to replay from scratch.

  6. Therefore CoG discourages checkpoint saves out of business interest – all the more so since (arguably) their formula has gotten stale and the games they release less popular.

Let me know if anything in that summary is a misreading. If not, I agree, it doesn’t come out of nowhere. 1 and 2, at any rate, are clearly true. I’m sure there are speed readers who go on to ask for refunds, and I can imagine that a few of them sometimes get caught out with games they don’t quite finish in time.

But of course forcing people to replay the game from scratch if they made a choice they dislike also really pisses some people off. Some share of those people will immediately rage-quit and demand a refund. By your original hypothesis, CoG thinks it’s in its business interest to have a system that generates an increased number of those rage-refunds in exchange for the refunds it’s saving through Steps 3 and 4 above.

If so, that strikes me as a pretty poor business strategem, not a clever one. The people you’d be trying to catch on Step 3 above, who want to read the game more than once (but only for an hour or two and then never again) without paying for it? Whisper it softly, but there are other ways they can do that already. :slight_smile: So the refunds you’re preventing there are from speed readers who want their CoGs for free but are unfamiliar with pirate apk sites – not a demographic big enough that CoG should be shaping its strategy around it. Step 4, meanwhile, seems likely to be one where you’re actually pushing a share of your readers to a point where they decide early that they don’t like the game – the exact opposite of 2(b).

So yeah, I don’t think you’re making anything up, just that you’ve misjudged where the incentives lie, and that it’s very unlikely that you’ve hit on a covert financial incentive for CoG’s unenthusiastic attitude toward saves.

It may be worth noting that CoG’s own policy on refunds has no time limit, which one might have expected if they were intentionally chasing the incentives you speculated about. Rather, they’ll refund two games for any reason, no questions asked. That points to a different (more common and frankly more sensible) business strategy, where the overarching goal isn’t refund minimization. Rather, making the first few refunds easy encourages people to buy games they’re not sure about, on the promise that they can give it back if they don’t like it past the demo period.

Anyway. I don’t know if when you went on to refer to common online complaints, you were thinking about some that supported your original point, or whether you were moving the goalposts to argue about the second thing I said… that even though the rage-quitters likely outnumber the refund-requesters you were speculating about, their refund requests are probably also not hugely important in the scheme of things.

I’ll cheerfully stick by that. You can’t reach every audience; you can’t prevent every refund; you need to know what you’re trying to create, so that you can distinguish your actual core audience from the multitude of loud voices online. CoG has achieved a still-growing audience with what it offers; it should focus on creating and sustaining a distinctive player experience, and try to build its brand around it. If the core experience/brand it has been profitably developing is “consequential choice,” then for it to put in save-at-will or a back button would be like Fromsoft putting in a full-on easy mode. (And before another wave of people jump in to wave Elden Ring at me, yes, it shows that once the brand is well established, you can ease up a bit on the more exacting aspects of the brand. Maybe wider use of checkpoint saves could count as an equivalent here? :slight_smile: )

Congratulations!

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Thank you so much. I hope I’ll return to from this war to see my children

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If we didn’t already have sufficient reason to keep the war friendly, then surely this would get us there.

Think of the children, everyone. Think of the Abstract_Children.

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7x8ubt

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For those who play their games on Steam, there’s a simple way to create you’re own checkpoints (in a way).
As you can see in this post by @ClaimedMinotaur, you just have to copy elsewhere the state file (for example before a major branching or a minor one if you’re just curious to see the different text flavors) and when you want to restart the game from there you just have to paste it again in its original folder.

I know, it’s just a workaround and a bit intricate at first, but I guess it works pretty well if you want to see small text variants without having to play the entire game again (or if things get messy and you don’t want a fresh restart!).

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Damn, bro. I might have to hire you to promote my channel. :rofl:

I’m glad you found that method useful. I use it every time I play.

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Congratulations!! :tada: :baby_symbol: (I never knew there were baby emojis here before now, lol).

Though, at some point, if you ease up on the aspects of your brand too much, you end up being the disaster that BioWare has become. I suppose that’s also open for debate… elsewhere.

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Now what about the EA mandated looter shooter MMO Anthem was a departure from BioWare’s usual brand of story-driven singleplayer games?

Anyways I tend to air on the side of “the more optional features the better” when it comes to providing people with tools to create books/games. Maybe some authors would prefer to leave such features off for their game but I don’t personally see any reason not to provide the option for those who would be interested.

Twine, for instance, has many such features (some would not work for a text format like COG) that make it an enticing alternative to ChoiceScript. The only reason I haven’t switched to it is because Twine lacks a good community hub and mailing list for games, and also because I really don’t want to learn an entirely new and more complicated coding system.

A save system however seems like it would be doable here, it’s seems to be a simple enough feature that it could be added without excessive coding and one that many readers would enjoy. It doesn’t need to be a universal thing for authors who don’t want it in their project but the option would be welcome.

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That’s the best news I’ve heard in a while now! Good work staff, see what the combined effort of coffee/tea and nicotine can accomplish! :crazy_face:

Cheers!

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