I’ve loved the Infinity saga since playing the first game when Paul put it up on the forums. I’ve also always felt it was quite different to XoR, mainly because it’s been (until now? I’m saving my playthrough of Lords for a less busy time) such a thoroughly military series, informed by Paul’s grasp of military history which is roughly 10,000 times better than mine. I’ve yet to write a battle with anything remotely close to the verisimilitude and complexity that Paul brings to his big setpieces.
I also never thought XoR is as mercilessly hard as Blogia, let alone the Forlorn Hope. Choosing to give battle at the end of Uprising is my “Forlorn Hope” equivalent – the option the game reminds you repeatedly is an excessive and unnecessary risk, better avoided – and, well, it’s a lot easier to win the bragging rights in Rebels.
Paul and I are trying to do some similar things – long series of expanding scope, implicit critiques of power fantasies, willingness to end the story with the abrupt death of the MC (though again, I think it’s a lot easier to die in Paul’s world than in mine). In a lot of those, I think I’m more influenced by other media that I encountered before CoG – GRR Martin, Breaking Bad – than by any CoG or HG. But I’d be proud to count Paul as an influence.
Thanks for being so transparent about this Paul. I think it’s really healthy for folks in the community to have a full understanding of how artists review and consider their work, even if you’re under no obligation to share something that personal.
For what it’s worth, I’ve always deeply loved the Dragoon saga and it’s a big reason I made the transition into working in games. Monetary success is probably the most important thing in a world where rent and other factors exist, but it’s had a profound impact on me and the community and that has to count for something!
This is a good reminder to go upgrade at your patreon.
It may be a moderate success financially, but as a work of art it is a tremendous success. I’m glad you have other projects that may be more lucrative, not only because I’m a fan of your work, but because the Dragoon Saga is your masterpiece and it’s a vision worth staying true to.
I think the answer to this topic’s question can only be Wayhaven. The sales and patreon pledges speak for themselves: it is by far the most financially successful choicegame ever written. And when you are that successful, things change. There’s an entirely new “Wayhaven Clone” genre out there, and although the name is unkind, it’s little surprise others are creating stories in a similar vein in hopes of replicating its success.
This also speaks to an important demographic shift in the people who regularly play and–more importantly–buy these games. If you have a very gamey, stat-heavy choicegame that appeals almost entirely to young adult males…that’s a tough sale for the modern choicegame reader of 2023. Now and in the future, the entire catalogue will shift to cater to what traditional fiction does: middle-aged women who care mostly (or exclusively) about romance.
That all said…I have to throw my own hat in for Samurai of Hyuga. For one reason alone: you guys have no idea how hard I fought Jason & Dan back in 2015 to make it Free with In-App Purchase. That’s the standard for choicegames these days, but it wasn’t back then!
I think “Wayhaven clone” pretty reductive. I don’t know which specific games you’re referring to, but paranormal romance has been a genre for at least as long as Anne Rice’s books, probably longer. People write about what they want to write about, I can’t imagine most HG authors are just trying to cash in on a trend. And even if they do “cater to what traditional fiction does,” middle aged women are a valid demographic. They’re also not a monolith who only like one kind of thing. And even if they were and cared “exclusively about romance,” romance is a perfectly valid genre.
As a middle-aged woman who enjoys romance (although far from “mostly” or “exclusively”), I am utterly bemused by the assertion that “traditional fiction” caters to my demographic. There’s one genre out there that caters to people (of any age) who care “mostly” or “exclusively” about romance, and it’s called … the romance genre. And there are more than enough romance books being published that a romance-exclusive reader doesn’t need to read anything else. That romantic subplots show up in other genres isn’t catering to starry-eyed matrons, it’s a reflection of the fact that romantic relationships are a significant part of human existence that most people are interested in reading about - and there are books published all the time, both literary and genre fiction, in which romance plays little or no role.
As for the ChoiceScript game fandom, I wish all those middle-aged women who are getting catered to now would start showing up in fan spaces, where I’m generally surrounded by Gen-Z whippersnappers who leave me feeling like an old prune.
Furthermore, the fact that most games include romance to some extent doesn’t say anything at all about how much, or what kind, or what a game is like otherwise. There have been several recent games that I have specifically not recommended to readers looking for vicarious romance. There are some sweet moments to be had in Choice of the Viking, but it’s not by any stretch of the imagination a romance game. And I really don’t think we’ve seen that many more games that I would classify as romance games, per se, outside of the Heart’s Choice label. We’re seeing a lot of games, in all genres, with strong optional romantic subplots. Who’s to say a “gamey, stat-heavy” game can’t also include a love story, and be entertaining to both stereotypical young men and archetypal crones?
Hey, YA is a thing too. I’d have said the catalog right now hews closer to the tropes of that demographic, and the money’s good enough there to feed multiple CoG-sized companies.
I see even CoG forums aren’t free of men who grumble about romance and consider it a genre “for old hens” You don’t have to make thorough demographic research to notice that polls and audiences skew much younger (and mostly male on platforms like reddit). Young men and women seem to be the ones driving the demand for romance in games (especially cRPGs).
I think it’s a little unfair to Devon to assume he’s grumbling. In general he’s pretty pragmatic about writing to what he perceives as the desires of a target audience.
But I agree that on the evidence I’ve seen, the audience for CSGs that tug heartstrings and tingle loins isn’t at all confined to a particular gender or age.
This is exactly why I like IF as a whole, and why I got into it as a child. IF games are great because it has the potential to create engaging, immersive stories and narratives that can be experienced on a deep personal level regardless of race, gender, creed, orientation, etc. Of course all media can connect to different aspects of who we are, but how many allow you to experience stories as closely as an IF game can?
But in terms of influence, it’s been very interesting to see how authors try and push the limits of ChoiceScript to better suit the stories they want to tell. Truth be told, I don’t think it always works, and I actually would love to see ChoiceScript get updated or expanded on—it came out in 2010 I believe, and I can’t think of any major updates to it—but there are times still when a CS game will come out and I think “wow, I didn’t realize you could do this with CS and I think that’s so neat!” For example, I hope Stars Arisen (and I think A Study In Steampunk did something similar) will be influential in encouraging authors to have “save checkpoints” to repeat chapters until you‘re satisfied with them.
I was inspired by Stars Arisen to do this for Royal Affairs (and retroactively add it to my previous games). I had mostly seen it in HGs and Choice of Rebels before but not any more recent CoGs. I’m planning to include it for things I make in the future.
Thinking about influences, @Havenstone mentioned YA and the YA audience, I think Psy High was the first CoG that was firmly in that genre - a school story with romance, plus magic. It was massively successful and I can only imagine that it influenced future games. Certainly when I was first thinking about Crème de la Crème, although it isn’t magical, I saw Psy High as proof of there being a market for school-set CoGs.
When I looking at Psy High’s release date on the CoG Omnibus app, I noticed Psy High, Creatures Such As We, and then Choice of Robots. Three games in a row which enjoyed a lot of success and critical attention at the time and for many years afterwards - I think this 2014/15 triptych marked a sharp increase in ChoiceScript’s visibility in IF and indie games in general.
Something I’ve wondered about Wayhaven, was the shift in trend towards romance the result of observing popular romances in existing works or was it interactive fiction becoming more mainstream?
Like in traditional text based media, romance tends to be extremely popular and sell well, even if it’s poorly written. Early on, the choicescript community was pretty niche and the works tended to be more experimental on less popular subjects. But, as time went on, choicescript gradually began to become more popular and romance began to have a greater focus.
Did the trend towards romance lead to choicescript becoming more popular? Or did the increase in popularity lead to choicescript focuses trending towards those such as romance, which are likely more popular and have wider appeal?
I’m not accusing authors of writing about certain topics just to sell them, just that people are influenced by the media they consume so the more popular romance is as a genre, the more likely they are to be influenced by it.
EDIT: Not referring to romance as a whole, just romance elements. Like even if people don’t want to write primarily a romance, mainstream media typically has romantic subplots as an element present. Same with most choicescript games. Even if they aren’t a romance, they include romance and ROs tend to be a popular discussion point.
Well, I do enjoy a good grumble! I definitely should of specified, though: I meant romance elements, not necessarily romance stories themselves. A romance story has a specific setup and revolves around the two character’s relationship as the main plot, not a side plot, no matter how extensive that side plot may be.
I haven’t played any Heart’s Choice games, so I can’t be sure there, but I actually don’t know of any choicegame that would actually qualify under the romance genre. It would have to be one in which there is a singular, main RO. They and the MC don’t even have to be romantically involved (then it becomes a Buddy Cop story).
@Havenstone is very right about the Young Adult category: it’s massive, and there’s enough good eats in there for a long time (at least until AI takes over). Though it’s important not to let the category’s name fool you: half or more YA readers are adults. Well over half of fiction readers are female. That’s why, now and increasingly in the future, the choicegame catalogue will move more and more towards that demographic.
@AletheiaKnights, you’re right that there’s a lot of Gen-Z’ers out there playing these games. I know many who don’t read traditional fiction at all, and all the fiction they get is interactive: be it from choicegames, visual novels, or something else. I think the interactivity and customization plays a huge role in keeping and retaining their attention in a world that has no shortage of things trying to take it.
When I think of CoG/HG 10 years ago and early adopters in general, I definitely don’t think we’ve lost male readers, but that the majority of the readers we have gained in recent years are female and that this trend will continue over the next decade.
Romance in general and romance elements are a rising tide within entertainment media (from books to streaming series) for many reasons.
To me, the singular most interesting reason often cited is that people (men and women) are less embarrassed to admit to liking and engaging with the genre and its elements.
Interactive fiction, and Choice Scripted novels/games have both been in the forefront of this acceptance, and from the get-go (as shown by Choice of Romance) such fare has been consumed by all.
Wayhaven is special for many reasons, but to me, its biggest impact is the crossover from the Virtual Novel genre into Choice Scripted games. I still remember a couple of published authors of IF doubting that a virtual novel cross-over would work out well.
The fact that not as many authors have submitted male protagonists as female protagonists to Heart’s Choice in its beginning (I remember Mary explaining this) is just one example of past prejudices not yet catching up to present realities.
The acceptance of romantic elements is not only gaining traction within romance focused IF niches (HC) but also within the general IF world as well.
Sera has been a direct influencer on myself, and I am sure others as well, not just because of “romance”, but because of the successful execution and deployment of virtual novel elements within the IF realm specifically.
The acknowledgement of females within IF is what is (finally) evolving, not that suddenly there are more (they have been here all along, but not seen or acknowledged nearly enough).
Acceptance of romance and its elements is because of so much more than a sudden influx of females into IF.
Here’s where I mention that for a while I thought that Paranormal Prep School was the long-awaited next entry into the Psy High series, and I was bummed when I found out otherwise! PPS was good in its own right, but I did let @ladybird know at the time that I’m still keeping my fingers crossed for the next entry! Psy High was also the first CS game that my daughter ever played, and she loved it.
I’ve been playing these games since 2015 and there’s still a slew of games I have yet to play or even really hear of. Slammed! Will forever be my favorite, and was what made me sincerely fall in love with this style of game. Before then the others were certainly enjoyable. But Slammed! Made me emotional in ways I hadn’t over fiction in a long time. The investment into characters was truly wonderful. It also felt like I could fail without being ludicrously difficult. Any game since I’ve played that didn’t have such a feeling has always been less engaging to me.
This is what interactive fiction was designed for. The target audience is everybody under the sun. Different people prefer different genres, that’s all.
In terms of most influential, other than those already suggested, I think the award-winning ones come to mind. Take for example Creme. I think the fact that it won some pinnacle XYZZY awards makes it already a fan favourite. This is probably why I am doing something like it, and including save points a la Stars Arisen and maybe SNES Mega Man X games?
Romance is now a key feature in most games. I agree that this aspect is not tied to any one specific game, but rather changing demographics and the reaction to be more inclusive. Which is a good thing, apparently.
Choosing to give battle at the end of Uprising is my “Forlorn Hope” equivalent – the option the game reminds you repeatedly is an excessive and unnecessary risk, better avoided – and, well, it’s a lot easier to win the bragging rights in Rebels.