I agree that fantasy can and should be more inclusive, but most fantasy will not feature real-world ethnic groups and cultures, only some close counterparts. In addition, fantasy settings can include made-up human races, who have unusual skin and hair colors.
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I simply don’t see a need for such options. Neither gender, romantic orientation, nor even (*edit, especially) PoC. I simply don’t see why they need to exist.
I can empathize with a well-written character regardless of their gender, romantic orientation, or race. I cannot empathize with a character that is superficially like me but has the depth of a paper cutout.
If anything, having to spend time choosing superficial characteristics for the PC just makes it more difficult to empathize with it.
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His English is a bit weird but I believe @CaesarCzech is talking about games or stories that do not explicitly details the characters race or features and still people will picture them white, even if it bothers them, the whole default white thing. And also that ideally people should be able to empathize with characters that do not share the players race or traits, or imagine whatever they wish in spite of what de athor may have described if they can’t.
Sexual orientation is different as it more notably affects behaviour. You could compare not giving race options in a game that is not about race with not giving sexuality optons in a game that does not have any romantic or sexual scenes. If it won’t be meaningful to the story, let each reader imagine what suits them better. I agree with most of that, but I do respect and understand that people who feel/are underrepresented might desire more in terms of inclusiveness.
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I usually don’t play video games that are gender-locked (or video games in general because I’m so bad at FPS’s). Even though my PC’s in CoG’s have totally different personalities from me, I still prefer having a wide range of options if it’s a CoG.
Playing as a character whose sexuality/romantic orientation is completely the opposite of mine and then being looped into a romance with a character I’m not interested in the slightest feels awkward to me. Another reason I don’t play “normal” games that much. I have so much free will in CoG.
Having free reign over the story and my character is why I dig CoG so much. I don’t think race is necessary if the game doesn’t discuss it though (but I think the player should choose as many races as they like if possible, like in ZE: New Haven). If you want your game to be gender-locked, that’s okay.
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I don’t know why anyone would assume a character is white if the author does not describe the character as such. Most games may not outright say the character is white but there a little hints such as describing their mom as having blonde hair.
I would prefer if authors not describe the MC or the MC family at all. My point with the gender & sexuality thing is that if we can customize all of that in the game, what’s the big deal with being able to choose your race?
Some people in here are acting as if it’s too much but there are games on here were you can be male, female, both or neither. You can be straight, bisexual, asexual, aromantic, etc but God forbid if you want your character to be the same race as you or you’ll be accused of being unimaginative.
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Honestly, does it matter?
Most CoG games don’t explicitly mention race/ethnicity unless it specifically relates to their setting (see: SoI & GoI). You’re assuming this is unintentional - is it not more likely that in most cases the opposite is true? Why shoehorn those options in when players will imagine these features in anyway? Isn’t that the point of text adventures, and the driving philosophy behind CoGs (imagination)?
IMO, It would just add clutter and break immersion if a game were to ask if my character was black or white. I don’t need the game to make me vocalise every visual feature of my character (scars, eye color, etc), it’s simply pointless from a gameplay perspective. Sexual orientation and such I can understand, because that is directly applicable to the game (romance), but race is hardly the same unless it directly related to your setting. Nothing is inhibiting you from simply imagining it as you play, much the same as you may imagine a muscular, lanky, or scarred figure as your character.
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Well they do, just read through this very thread.
One of the main reasons behind having the player choose their gender and sexuality is because many if not most games shape their ROs to match those choices, so they actually simplify the story/coding, in a way that customizing race would not. Moreover, it is impossible to include all races, ethnics and the combinations between those and I think it would be a lot worse to include some but not others than giving no choice at all. I suppose it is true it is also not possible to include all the gender and sexuality options around but the proportion of people left out in in this regard is much, much smaller than it would be with race.
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Lel I’m part Venezuelan, part Irish and part German
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I read through this thread and I don’t recall reading anything about anyone assuming a character is white without a valid reason. I must’ve missed it so quote it for me.
If the MC has a set gender and sexual orientation then why can’t they just use their imagination like the other person said for race? There must be something wrong with them if they can’t empathize with someone of the opposite gender or sexual preference. (That was sarcasm BTW)
I understand that every race can’t be included. That’s why I said I would prefer it if the authors don’t describe the MC or MC’s family appearance at all but I don’t blame anyone for wanting to able to customize their race in a game.
Okay you made this comment ages ago but have you read Ken Liu at all? He just wrote a fantasy novel that is based on Chinese history, and I wonder if you’d enjoy it. 
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I haven’t heard of him, but thanks for letting me know! I’ll definitely check him out!
Mhm! He’s a fantasy writer who also translates a lot of work by modern Chinese authors also working in the genre. He’s got loads of short stories, both by him and translated by him. 
To respond to the OP: As a white woman in writing and gaming communities, I feel my duty with regards to representation is first and foremost to amplify the amazing work by PoC that exists in the world. Secondarily it’s to make sure I don’t erase PoC or negate their experiences in my own work. I think the first is important though because white writers have overwritten the stories of PoC for generations. What little platform I have, I want to put towards lessening that gap and making voices that have traditionally been marginalized be heard.
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To summarize what I’ve learned in this thread so far is this:
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You can not make every one happy in the inclusion v non describe argument. Writing is hard and imposed limits makes it harder. However don’t be afraid of upsetting people by discribing your characters however you want. The level of detail has more to do with your writing style then any thing else.
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Be respectful in the use of PoC or of any culture. Stories and games are about conflicts without conflict there is no story. Popular and prolific writers like David Webber ( my personal favorite) vilify the antagonist but usually not the antagonists culture or race.
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Fantasy and sci-fi. There is no reason to be inclusive but nether is there a reason not to be inclusive. Often times the verious races in a story are actually based in part on a real world cultures or at least the perception of them. Monocultures are easier to write about then multicultural cultures. For example Dragon age nations can all be compared to 1700 -1800 France, England, Spain, Russia, and the Ottoman Empire. The elves to the Jews of the same time period. And while not inclusive in terms of PoC it was focused primarily on the religious side of the conflict not on righting racial wrongs. Sorry if it sounds like I’m lecturing here it is not my intention. Write YOUR world how you see it, if every one has purple skin or not is up to you. Just keep the cultures and peoples you write about balanced.
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This world has many issues besides the Race divide. Slavery still exists even today. As does religious conflicts and gender bias this will not change unless we make it change by actively opposing it. And here we have an opportunity to do so through the games we make and the games we buy. As well as how we act outside our homes. Do not be afraid to write about any or all of these issues simply because some one some where will sit back point a finger at you having read/played only part of your story and call you a racist or any number of things. Because they only was solutions to these issues come to light is by examining them in every possible way. And again I’m sorry if it sounds like I’m preaching but I am preaching
. If writing about a culture that oppresses another is what you want to write about then do so. Because ignoring or sidestepping the issue will not make it go away.
This will probably be my last post in this thread simply because I don’t think I can contribute meaningfully further. I will continue to read the posts thou because the topic is important. Both personally and to the community.
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Thanks again, I can’t seem to find many fantasy series in Asian-inspired settings. I’ll have to check and see if any of his books are at my local libraries.
But I’m glad that you’re so open to diversity in your work. Personally I appreciate all content creators’ efforts to “lessen the gap” regardless of platform. Even if their work may not be popular, they’re still working hard at what they do to contribute their ideas, efforts, and opinions and to offer diversity to their readers.
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Sure! I think the idea of being closed to representation is often something that comes from one of two places: fear of doing it wrong, or indifference and disinterest in doing it at all. But it’s a luxury to turn on the TV, go to the bookstore, and pick up a videogame where you know you’re bound to find a character you relate to, so choosing indifference, to me, just adds to that existing gulf. Not every game can be everything for everyone, but certainly we have had a great deal many stories about the same kind of protagonists over the years! It can be good to question why we make the choices we do as creators. Makes us more conscientious members of the gaming community.
There’s this great speech by the showrunner of Grey’s Anatomy and Scandal, Shonda Rhimes, I sometimes bring into my classroom when I teach. In it, Rhimes says that she thinks the way we view and talk about “diversity” is all wrong. We’re not adding some new flavor to a story when we add in people from a variety of backgrounds and experiences; we’re actually “normalizing” our media to be more reflective of the world that actually exists around us. And that world is far from just white, or just straight, or just cisgender, etc etc and so forth.
Sometimes attempts at representation can go wrong, which is honestly more than a bit terrifying to consider if you’re trying to put good into the world. So here’s the tricky part for the writer or creator with privilege: you must be willing to ask questions during the creation process that may make you look foolish. You must be willing to be humbled by someone who can tell you, “You are minimizing my experience here,” or “You are hurting me without realizing it.” I’ve said–actually on this forum–things I’m embarrassed by in that messy process of asking, but far better to look foolish and grow from it than to work in isolation and create something that does harm. That’s a hard thing to do for a lot of people. It’s hard for me, even though it’s something I actively want to do. But it’s good work and it’s worth doing.
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There have been a few allusions to the problem with this. This is probably the most direct answer to your question:
If you are trying to avoid an all-white setting, a racially ambiguous caste is a questionable solution.
I think that one of the reasons for this is that “PoC” and “white” are not categories of skin tone. They are categories of social privilege, which is often (but not always) marked by skin tone. In the United States, whiteness has expanded over the last hundred years to include ethnicities that have not always been white, including people of Jewish, Polish, and Italian descent.
In a sense, games without people of color are neutral because a defining feature of whiteness is that it determines what “neutrality” entails. That’s the hegemonic part.
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If they’re white, yes. There are tons of games, books, movies about oppressed white people or oppressed kinds of white people that don’t mention actual oppression of PoC. That’s useless. Absolutely useless. It’s a white person’s (usually cishet male’s) oppression fantasy. An oppressed white person does not represent PoC. [quote=“BabbleYaggle, post:140, topic:15997”]
including people of Jewish,
[/quote]
Oh, but antisemitism is alive and well, believe me!
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A good example of a book about oppressed white people gone wrong is The Revealing Eden series. It refers to black people as a racial slur and the black characters are all very stereotypical. And it’s also scientifically inaccurate.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with writing about racism towards white people, since all groups have been oppressed or discrimination at one point. A good example of this is I Hadn’t Meant to Tell You This by Jacqueline Woodson (who also wrote Brown Girl Dreaming). There are different forms of racism aside from systemic racism. I think micro-agressions should also count as racism, but to a much lesser extent.
Also, it’s so sad how antisemitism is so ignored. It’s weird because my brother is completely related to me, we’re the same race, have the same parents—and in middle school he would get made fun of and be called antisemitic slurs because he looks really white. Everyone thinks he’s Jewish. The people that made fun of him weren’t aware of his race, btw. I can only imagine it’s worse for people who are ACTUALLY Jewish. It’s outrageous how it’s overlooked and seen as “not racism” because a lot of Jewish people are white.
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Side-bar: you can write stories about a traditionally oppressed group of people and choose not to focus on oppression. I think that’s also a mistake people often make, like “if I write about X kind of person then I have to talk about racism/sexism/transphobia/etc, and I just don’t want to.” But that is unnecessarily limiting, and pigeonholes what kinds of stories exist about certain groups of people. Plus, if you are dealing with oppression irl, I can’t imagine it would be fun to be reminded of it in every video game you play; a lot of us play games to forget our everyday troubles, after all. Sometimes a person is just a person, doing ordinary everyday person things! Sometimes a sappy love story is just a sappy love story, no matter who the people in love are. And in a fantasy or sci fi setting you can literally decide to rewrite social dynamics, if you like.
I’ll give an example. I am tired of the “whoa you’re a girl who can fight?! How shocking!” trope. Why can’t we just accept ladies can be fighters sometimes? Why must I be the special snowflake woman, reminded of misogynistic views of what a woman should be? It gets old.
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You’re right that race is a social construct: absolutely right. However, this construct so heavily influences society it can no longer, in any way, shape or form, be considered insignificant. In any media. Set in any time period, as long as people of this age are reading it today. Expressed ideas don’t exist in a vaccum.
It’s true. However, think of this: Harry Potter, for example, barely describes anyone. Hermione could be black or white or anything. She could be a great chance for representation, and yet, because the primary readership is white, the adaptions (except for the new live one?) are white, and almost all the art and fanfics have her as white, she becomes white in the eyes of the general media, no matter if a black reader saw her as black.
It could have been so easy to mention her as black, once or twice, and there you have it, representation no one can deny. But because she is left so vague, in a fantasy world taking inspiration from European legend, set in England, most people automatically assume white.
Maybe in the eyes of the uneducated who do not know he’s Jewish. But, no, that was a Jewish man saying stupid things about black people. Being discrimatory is not only found in white people.
Racism is based on positions of power; hence why one cannot be racist towards white people. But when Bernie said that, it was wrong, it was discrimination towards a similarly oppressed people and yes, it was definitely wrong.