What about PoC?

Please don’t quote posts that have been hidden. They’re hidden for a reason, and it just creates more mess for me to clean up.

Personally. Unless it has an impact on game play mechanics many features are redundant including race. Unless your race has wings four arms or something that will effect actions or reactions.

I let people customize characters within my games but Olmos if not all effect game play in one way or another. Otherwise it feels tacked on.

1 Like

The problems with that is that if a writer wants to describe a character, the character would have to be a brunet with dark eyes or something, or there would be no description and in a series of text-based games, that can potentially get boring very quickly.

Like I said before too, even if you don’t specify a character’s ethnicity, people tend to assume they are white, and that can get a bit frustrating when trying to talk about a character. Kinda like when people try to talk about the possibility of Hermione being black in the books.

Ultimately though, it is a better option than having a cast that is described as entirely white. But it has its cons too.

I agree with @attolia that I’d rather there be no mention of race rather than having explicitely an all-white world. But in the former case, and as has been pointed out by several other people, extra care must be taken to ensure that there is no hinting at race (the family breaking immersion thing is a pretty recurring issue).

But ideally a diverse setting would be awesome because representation matters and it will continue to matter as long as this whole “in the absence of detail the default is white” or Humans are White trope perdures.
The story doesn’t have to be about racism and discrimination: just mentioning casually that a character is a PoC goes a long way. And I think that goes for any diversity issue; visibility is key.

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/i-dont-see-race.jpg
Sorry couldn’t help myself. :grin:

I’m not sure I understood you correctly but: when an author lets the player customize hair, eye color, body shape etc…I ask myself why not race? Since the author themself has opened the gate to details that are not necessarily relevant in the story why limit things and gloss over race?

9 Likes

I apologize for causing any extra trouble for you; I’ve removed the quote from my post, if that will help any.

I’m not very smart and I do not do very well in debates or rationalized discussion, especially discussions pertaining to sensitive subjects.

(I do have manners though, and I’m not likely to tolerate folk who don’t exercise their own.)

I would very much like to read fictional works where race is either nonexistent or unacknowledged, however.

When I use them I incorporate those choices into the game play as much as I can.

I’ve seen games let you customize everything at the very start BUT that’s the first and last time it’s ever mentioned! That is my meaning.

If you get the choice to have blue eyes it should mention your eyes later or perhaps another character has a crush on people with that.

My overall meaning is that if the choice is given it should be put to use throughout the story.

2 Likes

I personally don’t like the term PoC: like sure, African/Asian/Eastern/Arabian/etc. people are not white (and those such as European/British/American/etc. people aren’t exactly white, either), but I’m not green of blue. That term feels like a sack you use to just dump things (people in this case) you don’t know what to do with. And before you snap at me, I’m not white!

And regarding the lack of representation: (usually) it’s not out of malice or any ill feeling. I think it was Socrates, who once said something along the lines of “if someone does something wrong, it’s not because they are evil; it’s because they don’t know better.” Most of the times the reason writers don’t include other races or ethnicities is because they aren’t used to see variety; you can’t ask of a writer who has never seen an Arabian to make a story with them in it, or someone who has never heard of African people and make an African main character.

True, nowadays with globalization and the constants flow of people emigrating/inmigrating, no one has an excuse to not know of other races. Still, this is something we struggle with; I, for example, usually write my characters white, even though I’m Asian: why? Because I live in Europe, and I see most of the population in my city is white. I hardly ever see other races or ethnicities, so I hardly notice I don’t have a diverse cast.

But little by little this is changing, like with gender and sexualities; some games like Zombie Exodus: Safe Haven include a lot of different races than just white. We are learning, and a lot of people are still “testing the waters”, bu we are making progress.

2 Likes

The gist of the argument against this is that it erases those other identities. It’s a consequence of “white” culture being hegemonic.

Because our media culture is so white-centric, texts written without reference to appearance or characteristics are commonly read as referring to or describing white characters. Readers expect the characters to be white unless explicitly told otherwise, because most characters in most other media are that way.

The standard progressive response, then, is to affirmatively address this by having POCs in media.

18 Likes

Honestly, unless the game actually touches on racism or your race has an effect on how certain characters view you, I don’t see it being that big of a deal. For example, it’s generally understandable if a straight guy is disinterested in being in a relationship with a man, but they become a bit of an asshole if they’re disinterested in a relationship with a woman because they’re not a certain race.

For me, race is similar to cosmetic differences in a CoG protagonist such as eye color/hair color/stature/weight etc.I think it can make fun flavor, but it’s a bit unnecessary unless there’s a reason for it to be in. I do expect other characters in the cast to be widely representative, but for the MC it’s just another variable to code.

Of course, if MC has parents or siblings, I think the need for racial representation is a lot more important because you might have a parent/sibling that is described as a blue-eyed blonde when you’re picturing your own character as, say, Indian. Even more jarring if the opposite parent is also white.

1 Like

Ok speaking from the experience of a human male that also happens to be white.

Writing a story about race and racism is very hard. Even done right it will piss some one off. And a policy of inclusion often times seems contrived.

If I include a PoC in one of my stories it is because it makes sense, to me at least, to do so.

I personally rebel against the concept of including PoC due to a numbered list. Checking off Asian, Black, Hispanic, or Native American. … not to exclude Aberiginoal or Indian or any other race.

I love meaningfull representation. Not representation for the sake of representation. I loved Petal Throne for its world but save for castes, race was not mentioned other then to say their were other non human races were present. Choice of Robots actually was the second CoG I bought and led me to promise to buy every CoG I could find. I enjoyed it’s protrail of diffrent races robotic and human.

The WIP I am currently working on includes racial, religious and cultural conflicts. And while I will have a selection of races for the MC to select. It comes up later in the story when such things become an issue. And reading this thread has been highly informative on how I’m doing. So thank you all.

I do believe that ignoring racism is horrible. I personally don’t care what skin color a person has. By your definition I work at a place that has at least 50% of the work force PoC. So long as the person in question can perform the job satisfactory then I have no issues with them. I do have issues with people of any race who belive their color or nationality or culture or gender some how entitles them to special treatment.

To say whites write racist stories because they do NOT include PoC is to say the writers in India or Africa are racist because they only write about Africans or Indians. I’ve met many racist people and many of them were not white. Now saying that I will point out that I have met many white racists.

I hope I haven’t offended anyone. Because while I’m not proud to be white I’m not ashamed to be white either. my skin tone does not matter to me nor does any one else. Nor does it define who I am.

I am a firm believer that racism is a learned behavior one that we teach or children knowing or not. Young children do not discriminate based on race.

I also belive education is the best defence and offense against racism.

And last I also belive that if you want more stories that are inclusive then don’t hold back write them your self get the ball rolling. Get involved with what you say you care about. Because if someone sits back and say this person writing is non inclusive so they must be a racist or don’t care enough to to Be inclusive. I say that person is the racist that that person is the one that doesn’t care enough to be inclusive because that haven’t even tried to do as much as the person who took the time to write their story.

I’m going to stop my self here because I can talk endlessly about it and will no doubt seriously offend someone unintentionally.

Thanks for taking the time to read my rant.

4 Likes

In regards to the idea of omitting mention of race-related features:

I would struggle with that in some of my stories because I love to describe how things look, especially regarding colours and movements. Being able to say, “He teased out his thick, curly black hair,” or “though she was just under five feet tall, she still ducked to enter the cave” or “they blinked their grey eyes,” is important to me.

If I’m writing a game where colourful descriptions aren’t useful or necessary, then I will use minimal or no character descriptions.

But if I’m writing about a grey world with green grass, which smells of sage and sounds like frogs, I want to write about my favourite NPC’s bouncy, long, black hair.

And I’m also a fan of mindful inclusion, with ethnicity and race as well as other things like gender (or culture, or religion, when applicable).

4 Likes

Darn right it is. Personally speaking I have not encountered many instances of racism. In grade school almost every other kid was fully Asian or half-Asian, and even in MS-HS I haven’t experienced much discrimination. I have lots of liberal friends who are very racially aware and other friends who just don’t talk about race much.

However, I am very interested in Asian-American history, so I find it easier to write about racism directed towards Asian-Americans or mixed characters who are Asian. However, since I’m writing characters who are not Asian, I totally understand. I’d say that it’s hard for a lot of people to write characters of other races and cultures without ‘paintbrushing’ your PoC, as @Fiogan said.

I have to say, I’m kind of guilty to the latter statement when it comes to writing. It’s usually for my friends though. If they want representation I’ll let them have it.

I didn’t know you were working on a WIP, I’d love to read it!

Agreed. I don’t call Haruki Murakami a racist for not writing characters who aren’t Asian. I just want a little bit of diversity is all. They say ‘write what you know,’ but I personally believe that you should write what you want to know while also studying and researching it. Granted, race and sexuality is a more controversial topic, but I think if you get input from people of that group and listen to their advice, then it’ll work out well. However, I’ll still respect an author’s artistic freedom. If they want to write white characters, so be it.

It sucks how there’s a strong sense of ‘white guilt’ going around and how being proud to be white can be interpreted as white supremacy. I don’t think equality means much if it means that you have to put others down. I mean, if you aren’t exhibiting any racist behaviors I think you should be allowed to say you’re proud of being white.

4 Likes

I don’t want to be called that, and it’s not a very precise term. It’s a term that is too long for people to be willing to use in full so they shorten it to something that sounds like a racist epithet, and it generalizes anyone who isn’t fully Caucasian into a single amorphous blob. It is often used in such a way that it completely erases mixed people (Then again so does everything else. Barack Obama is “black” but he’s just as Caucasian as I am.) and it enforces tribalism and self segregation… which again further ostracizes mixed people. Of course, everyone’s a bit mixed, but god help you if you identify as such and don’t dumb yourself down to one specific aspect of your ethnicity to identify with. It smacks of people more concerned with making themselves feel better or lining their pockets off the previous than actually effecting meaningful positive change.

@Bagelthieft It is not my intention to offend but I learned years ago that no matter how hard I tried not to offend people I just don’t know what will be found offensive. Sometimes it’s just not possible to say what I need to say without offending someone. And a disturbingly large amount of the time it’s someone who’s a giant hypocrite. On the internet I’m nothing to nobody. I’m just a faceless pink circle with an S in the center, so my opinions can be taken on their own merits. But of course people put their own assumptions about who I am on me based on my opinions, and then dismiss those opinions based on the assumptions they made about who I am based on those opinions…

1 Like

This discussion has given me a lot to think about. Thank you guys :relieved:

I have sort of a question for everyone. Originally in my game I did have a skin color selection, but I took it out. My original thought process was that, since your mother is Catlidean, you are already seen as mixed race-- skin color in your country of origin isn’t the point of contention, but rather your nationality. I was thinking that there were so many different skin colors in the world, it would be best just to leave your mother’s and sibling’s looks up to the imagination.

Now I’m wondering if it would better if I left it in? It wouldn’t change how your character is viewed, and I’ve put in effort to never imply that they’re white, but if this sort of cosmetic difference makes people happy I would love to fit it in.

@RedRoses Just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the Dragon Age thing? You don’t have to explain if you don’t want to, just wondering :smile:

@P_Tigras Oh, I’m aware of the context. I still enjoy his work. It just makes me sigh, you know? He acknowledges race issues, and even sort of touches on it… but the only brown people I can think of are the Easternlings and whatever. And they’re… sort of evil lmao.

Also, LeGuin is a gem.

5 Likes

My thing with Dragon Age is that it has a very frustrating involvement with race and allegory (as well as mental illness but that’s not the discussion here)
The elves are basically standins for oppressed people of color, as a tribal people subjugated by the humans and forced to live in ghettos or seen as savages if they don’t. They’re often forced into slavery (Fenris), servants to royalty (Briala), or abused horribly by the humans around them (the city elf origin). Often, it’s a mix of all three.
Without getting into spoilers, there are parts of DAI that sort of imply that maybe the elves deserved it after all, because they were just as bad as the humans, so it’s alright that they end up in ghettos. Hell, the elves were actually worse! It doesn’t help that the metaphor is written mostly by white people who don’t understand the issues of racism enough to write about it.

4 Likes

For CoG type games where you can’t see your character, I don’t see the importance of choosing the MC’s race/ ethnicity if it has no impact. Unless it’s a fantasy setting with orcs and elves and such, there (most likely) isn’t much difference between the races (just like there’s little difference between coding a male and female MC during a modern /futeristic western setting).

I think a story needs a balance (but, not necessarily 50/50) between choice and body text. Choosing a lot of characteristics that are never mentioned again ( and even if they are mentioned, they don’t add to the story) is clunky and offputting. It may also be hard to implement. How do you deal with polyracial /polyethnic people? Adding racism to a game can make race important, but I don’t think racism is “fun.” There is a reason most people don’t like racists and that might be hard to properly implement.

There is also the potential for being offensive. It is ok to say that orcs are dumb and strong because they are not real, but it may not be PC or accurate to apply generalizations or stereotypes to groups of real people.

I mainly care about my MC’s personality and choices and find if offputting if I have to choose my MC’s physical description ( there are a few exceptions such as superhero costumes). I don’t like the author’s description of my MC to differ from what I think about them. This means the less description ( that does not add to the story) of MC, the better. I lose my immersion when games mention MC liking chocolate, drinking alcohol or coffee, being an awful person, or other things that don’t fit my MC ( like trying to maintain contacts during the zombie apocalypse when that can lead to eye infection and blindness). I don’t mind when my family members have a different race because I understand that are not really trying to represent my real family and in a lot of games you’re adopted and can persue your adopted sib.

I would like my MC’s culture to be included. It breaks my immersion when games hint / say the MC is atheist or follows another religion. If the game culture is different from the player culture then that can make the game difficult to understand for the players ( historical gender switched games or gender switched ROs -CoR). If I don’t agree with the game culture ( being forced to be racist,sexist, or to worship a false deitys or be atheist if I don’t agree with the deitys) then I’d like the option to go against it. I like games that have understandable cultures. I don’t know what to think about culture clash games/stories. I feel like they have a message of segregation, death, and hopelessness for the losing side and that’s sadder media than I like.

For race, ethnicity, and culture in NPCs, I feel like it probably won’t hinder the game if it’s added, even though I like to imagine NPCs looking however I want ( which usually, no one has an appearance), but I do prefer the pictures of visual novels, but the personality customization and choice of CoG. However, culture can detract from romancible NPCs if I realize that we are just too different to ever work out. I also find it odd how NPCs overshare; they tell random strangers (MC) their life stories for no reason just like villians telling the hero that they captured their evil plans when the hero always escapes and defeats them.

1 Like

@iris: Clearly the section of Middle-Earth in which the Hobbit and the War of Ring takes place is very much like Europe. The Easterlings are nomads, inspired by the Mongols and Turkic peoples of our history, and presumably, just like in the real world, the farther East one goes in Middle-Earth, the more Asiatic the peoples of the world would become. It is the Southrons (or Haradrim) of Near Harad and Far Harad who are notable for their brown and black skins in Middle-Earth. Near Harad tends to be much like Northern Africa in terms of climate while Far Harad is a huge continent-sized place with jungles, similar to sub-saharan Africa.

The Haradrim were conquered by Sauron and its men were forced to fight in his armies. As such, the Haradrim weren’t treated a whole lot better than the Easterlings. So Middle-earth did have its brown and black-skinned peoples, only as you might expect, they were pretty much out of sight and out of mind, until they were conquered and forced to fight in the arch-villain’s military.

The Numenoreans of old had even forced the colony of Umbar on the Southrons, which became a possession of Gondor until the Kinstrife resulted in its independence. Afterward it became a city known for its pirates and slavers (Barbary Pirates anyone?) and between the events of the Hobbit and the War of the Ring, quickly declared its allegiance to Sauron after he openly declared his return.

There are many good things that can be said about The Lord of the Rings, sadly, inclusivity is not one of them however.

3 Likes

Imho i think author will write how they want. Still Isnt assuming the characters are white unless there is noone explicitly mentioned as POC your personal problem and you cant identify with character unless it shares Outer characteristics with you. It isnt the problem of game but rather the problem of your imagination. Hopefully this isnt insulting to anyone because if this is offensive and insulting i dont know what isnt.

3 Likes

I side eye anyone who is proud to be a skin color. I understand if someone is proud to be a part of their culture such as being Irish, Chinese or Nigerian but to simply be proud of the color of your skin makes no sense.

2 Likes

The same could be said for gender or sexuality. Most people on here want to play as their gender and sexual orientation. That’s why most of the games on here have so many options now when it comes to that.
How does it make someone unimaginative for wanting to play as their race but it’s okay for people to want to choose their gender or sexual orientation? What’s the difference?