[quote=“RedRoses, post:40, topic:15997, full:true”]
To be fair to them (they ID as nonbinary, I think, so I’m not sure which pronouns they prefer), some of your answers did sound a bit curt.
You’re right that historical pieces should be accurate as possible, but personally I find that reason to exclude people of color from historical fiction a bit tiring. If you can’t include them in your standard medieval fiction, why not look for a new setting? [/quote]
That’s absolutely fine, and if an author is going to deviate strongly from historical accuracy, it is something I prefer. With a bit of creative world-building nearly any author-created setting can be racially diverse if they desire to create such a place.
I am ethnically and culturally Chinese. Heck, I could make the case that I am more Chinese than the Chinese living in China since the Cultural Revolution passed my country by. How did I react to Choice of Kung Fu? I loved it. Kung Fu Panda? Mulan? Good movies. The Japanese turning one of our deities into an idiot in one story and a fabulous gay dude in another? Sure why not. Cultural appropriation can be a sore point for some but face it, this is the internet. There is practically no action you can do that will not offend someone. Be respectful, research well and I would wager that most people will be more than happy to see our cultures represented in media. If there is a great story set in the waning days of the Qin Dynasty, should it really matter to me that it is not written by a Chinese person? Do note that after Kung Fu Panda was released, the Chinese government asked themselves why Americans could make better stories about our culture than we ourselves could. There were few people who screamed “cultural appropriation” because Dreamworks was making money off a family-friendly fantasy China.
In summation in this era of thin-skinned outrage culture, I can understand that a writer might have concerns about offending someone. However if it is well-written and your conscience is clear, do give some thought to writing and publishing it. Speaking only for myself, I would be delighted that there exists another story that brings the beauty of my culture to the wider world. Unless you try to cast John Wayne as Genghis Khan again.
I agree with you when it comes to the entire appropriation thing. As long as you’re doing your research and being genuinely respectful, I have no problem if people want to write stories about my culture. I get confused when people say you can’t write about X culture and only people of that culture can write about it. Because that minimizes the chances of more representation?? Honestly I’d be flattered if someone wanted to write about my culture and represent the people that make it up.
But if I’m being honest I’d love to publish my high fantasy story set in a kingdom based on different dynasties of China. I’m currently writing a story on it (it’s not COG though and I still have to work on it a lot) and I’ve always been very fascinated by Chinese history and clothing.
I totally get where you guys are coming from! As some of you pointed out most games come from white backgrounds and are mostly if not exclusively white.
Now I am white and I think I will try and shed a little light on why this is so.
Some writers don’t want to write about what they don’t know (I’m speaking historically not futuristic or alternate universe writers). I know as an American high school student my ‘World History’ class focused more so on white history than any other. One reason for this may be because white are the main record keepers of the past. Not that others didn’t keep records but white have kept them in better condition while they have destroyed others’ records.
As you state many writers are white. White people have gotten a lot of criticism lately about being all sorts of -ists. One of the most often used one is racist. Personally I am scared to write about a black person or an asian person because as I am not from their culture I may say something unintentionally offending. My writing will be labeled racist and so on. Thus it is easiest to simply write a story around my own race.
People just want to write about what they are most interested in. Authors just might not be interested in writing a story about a black person or a latino because they just aren’t and would rather write a story from a white person’s PoV. Call that racist if you wish but what is a writer without their inspiration.
This last one is kind-of out there but I get the feeling most of the forum members here are white. Now I may be completely wrong on this point, however I know authors want all of their time to be useful. Now I’m not saying other races are less important but the seer amount of time it would take to add in the ability for the mc to be a different race, if that would change others’ opinions of him/her in the game would be huge. Not saying authors shouldn’t do it but when they have to choose between writing two or three chapters of their book or going back and editing in the ability to change your race and all the changes that would make they choose the option that will make the majority of their readers happy.
Now I’m not saying all or even one of these apply to any story. These are just the four reasons I came up with that might be why you see this happening.
[EDIT] - Just thought of another possible point.
5. Authors want to immurse themselves in their own world as well. This combines a little with number 4 being that if they have to write a story with the main character as a certain race they will write it as their own because they want to fit into their own story.
I’m really glad you’re taking the time to try and understand, @Kelvin.
However:
This is a very valid point. We all have different bases in education. My own world history class focused primarily on Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans. But the way I see it, if someone is doing a historical writing, they should be open to being informed about the role people of color played in the era they are writing about. For example, say you wanted to write about cowboys. Many of them were Latino or black, so if someone told you this, and you wanted to be historically accurate, there would be at least one Latino or black cowboy in the piece, right?
This can be valid depending on the setting. If it’s a historical piece or something that explores superpowered prejudice, I would say that researching the culture and history of a group of people in that era or, for the latter, the prejudice that people of color face, is important as it ties into a serious part of someone’s identity. For the latter, if you’re going to use a metaphor for racism or homophobia, you should be willing to include a character who actually experiences it to show how parts of an identity can intersect. But if you’re writing something like, say, Power Rangers or something involving godlike powers in a modern setting, having a strong grasp on culture isn’t important, unless it is to the story. A black power ranger could still have the same story-arc as a white power ranger. If you could make a white character brown and still have their role and the story make sense, it should be fine.
It’s not inherently racist to write a white protagonist. It is racist to not include a single person of color, or keep them restricted to unimportant roles or something. A writer with a racist inspiration is still a racist.
It’s not so much the wish to choose our race as it is a wish for a character that we are supposed to be able to put ourselves in the shoes of is not defaulted to white. When family is described as pale or or white or with certain colors of hair that aren’t physically possible in brown ethnicities, it can be jarring because it is a reminder that we are expected to be white.
Authors want to immerse themselves in their own world, it’s true. But a lot of these stories don’t require a certain race. Zombie Exodus’s protagonist does not have to be white with a white sister named Emma, for example.
Thanks for starting this discussion! It’s been on my mind for a while and it’s something I’ve been nervous to discuss on here.
There’s nothing more annoying than picturing an MC that looks like me (dark-skinned) and then being told that my mom/dad/sister is fair skinned with blue eyes…
I’ve also noticed that many games don’t include POC’s as NPCs. I was really glad to see how the diversity in Choice of Robots; it felt natural and realistic.
Edit: As much as I love games set in a medieval-y England setting; how exciting would it be to read something set in Ancient Rome or in the time of the Mayans?
My pleasure! I don’t get very frustrated when my PC’s biological family is described with typically white features since I’m half white, but I can’t imagine how annoying that must be for some people who aren’t part white so I totally understand.
But yeah, I’ve been waiting for a high fantasy game set somewhere else besides Europe. If I can’t find one, I should probably write one haha. But in all seriousness I hope I can build up experience to actually commit to writing a high fantasy game that intertwines different cultures.
Yeah, I remember really enjoying the character selection options in Choice of a Vampire and Tin Star. I’m having a hard time remembering any other games with similar options related to skin color and/or race.
TBH, having the option to customize my MC’s race or skin color is almost as important as having the option to play as an lgtbtq character. I’m not sure on what the best way to implement this would be since it could get clunky/awkward. But this convo is deff a step in the right direction.
@TruMaknae If you do find any/write any, send them my way!
Hmm interesting topic. Dangerous as hell given its the internet but interesting regardless. Generally speaking though whenever I play a c.o.g or H.G the ethnicity or skin colour of characters is always rather minor to be. Albeit I’m white so my word means next to nothing in something like this. I’ve always felt though,that the defining characteristic of a character shouldn’t be that they’re a different colour,orientaition or what have you but the personality attached to that character.
However I’m a firm believer that the characters in a story are up to the author. No one should have to shoe horn in a token characters just to make someone happy. Otherwise every story ever made would never be published for fear of leaving someone out. Though there are numerous characters that were simply magnificent PoCs. Yiska is one of my favourites as well as Clotho.
But then again I’m white so my personal opinion on this topic doesn’t have as much weight seeing how so many characters are my skin tone. Alright I’m ready internet, crucify me if you will.
Me being Latino I honestly don’t care about anybody writing about my culture, I would actually be flattered. I think that if a person is passionate about what they are writing then they should be allowed to write about it (AS LONG AS IT IS NICE!), I think that it really comes back to what they taught ya in kindergarten, don’t do to others what you would not like to be done to you, or something along those lines! Something to keep in mind when writing about different races is to be well informed, respectful, and appreciative of that cultures impact on today’s world, like if it wasn’t for the Chinese, we would probably not have fireworks and many and I mean MANY other really cool stuff! In a conclusion, just be respectful and follow the golden rule!
I think part of the reason Choice of Vampires and @AllenGies’s Tin Star are such good examples is that race is meaningful. It affects your language(s), your options, your background, and how others perceive you, both positively and otherwise. It isn’t in any way a token paint-brushing of what are still, essentially, European-and-colonies flavoured characters.
Oh I loved the character backgrounds for Choice of a Vampire! They were so cool and interesting and I love how they incorporated language into it all! As for other games, I’m not sure about any that are published, but I know Zombie Exodus has a lot of race options and you can choose as many as you like. It’s very diverse as well. Sure, it’s still a WIP, but it’s definitely one of my favorites.
I love customizing my character! Even if it’s as simple as hair length. I have very short hair so I get really excited when my PC can have a pixie cut. I think Monsters of New Haven High and Guenevere do really good jobs on LGBTQ+ options though.
And sure thing! A lot of my favorite books actually happen to feature diverse characters, you should see my Goodreads shelves lol.
Finally figured out how to quote replies. Anyway, I totally agree and I loved both Tin Star and Choice of a Vampire. In a way, they both taught me things that I hadn’t known before about race and history in the United States during the 19th century. It was pretty educational, too. I’ve never had many good history classes so it taught me a lot.
To be completely clear because I don’t think I’ve stated this before: I think that telling an author what to write is a bit dictatorial and authors do deserve their own artistic liberties. In the end, it is your story and if you’re not being offensive I’m fine with it. Turning characters into a token is terrible and honestly I’d prefer an all-white cast in exchange for tokens. Anything but another Asian dragon lady.
I wouldn’t say that. Your opinions are your opinions and you’re entitled to them, and I respect that. Also, Yiska is definitely one of my favorites, he’s so cool.
I actually find it kind of funny how modern ethics can be so simplified that if you apply first-grade moral logic to it, the entire situation sounds completely ridiculous. That being said, I agree with you. In my writing I know how my friends want their cultures to be represented so I do my best to represent their cultures in a positive light.
@RedRoses I see your point and you argue it very well.
I’ve spent the last half hour typing up responses to your responses but I have decided not to because I do not have the time. I stated my argument and although I do not totally agree with what you say I feel there is truth in what you said as well.
I’m sorry I know I said I wouldn’t argue but I just can’t let this be. You cannot say someone is racist purely because they are not interested. Meaning, just because I am not inspired to write about blacks or latinos shouldn’t mean I am racist. I do not think whites are better than any other race. I do not think blacks are better than any other race. I simply do not wish to write about black people and their culture. I suppose you could call me pro-white but not racist.
Yikes. That has a very…racist connotation where I’m from.
Have you ever wondered why you you’re not interesting in writing about other cultures? I mean, no-one is asking you to. We’re just asking for the inclusion of PoC in games.__
If it’s alright, I want to say something for white people who are joining in on this discussion. I really appreciate that you guys are so interested in this but there are a few things you should know:
Our ethnicity is not a defining characteristic, but it is a part of our identity, in the way that your identity involves gender. As a biracial, q***r genderfluid person, my identity is really important to me because it influences how the world interacts with me and how I interact with it, much like the identity of a straight, white cis man is influenced by how the world interacts with him and he with it. It’s just that because his entire identity is considered the “default,” it’s not a characteristic for him because society is preset to fit to him. It’s kinda like how you have Steve Rogers as Captain America, but Sam Wilson is the black Captain America.
The biggest problem with the word “racist” is that when you tell a white person that they have done something racist, they think that a racist is someone who actively hates and denounces other ethnicities. Often though, we mean that racism is something like ignoring the existence of people of color. It’s not a dangerous racism, but it’s a hurtful one.
Setting is relevant to the issue, too. If a story is set in Leicester, England; Jerusalem, Israel; Los Angeles and New Orleans, U.S.A.; or other places known for their diversity, it’d be very odd to only have white characters.
I’ve lived in all of those cities, and to play a game or read a book set in any one of them, with only one culture presented in the story, is very jarring. Not everyone uses sliced loaves of bread - some families only eat rice, or tortillas, or pita and lafa. That’s one tiny example.
A story set in Japan or rural Nebraska, U.S.A., on the other hand, would have lots of rice (or bread). Not surprising.
I think in some ways, we’re discussing two different things here, too. There’s a world of difference between a story set in Kush (ancient Ethiopia), where the predominate culture is not white, and the story set in a modern, diverse city, where the author still writes every single character of any note as a white person.
I almost hesitate to bring this up, but what if we used a sort of Bechdel-Wallace test in examining our own works, or others? Do two minority characters interact with each other in a way that goes beyond peanut butter and jelly sandwiches? Or some sort of broad-stroke generalisation of the cultures in question?
I also think that representation is very important in fiction. Media paints the world for its viewers; I think how that world looks is terribly significant. Marginalisation can be just as difficult as overt prejudice.
@attolia
Racist, simply put is a person who believes that their race is superior to other races. What I am saying is I don’t think my race is better or worse than any other race. Just that I am interested and more likely to sympathize with white people. Read below as well because @RedRoses and you said similar things.
I do not believe my race is superior. I do not believe anyone else’s is inferior
I do not believe I treat any PoC any differently than a white person. I take what you say no matter what color you are and think about it then respond with my answer.
I do not believe my race is superior. I do not believe anyone else’s is inferior
I am not a policy or government
I wouldn’t consider myself intolerant of other races. I attempt to understand others. I certainly don’t push others away.
I could go on…
Finally I guess I miss-typed with the pro-white thing. Not to quote myself but…
I did not consider these two things as synonyms. (kind-of like a square is a rectangle but a rectangle isn’t always a square) What I meant by pro-white was that I am not interested in the history of africa, or the history of asia or even the americas. Not because of their people but the events that occurred there do not interest me. Now relating to current-day events I wish for all this “racist” stuff to go away (preferably soon so I don’t put myself in this terrible position once again). I wish for everyone to be included. I hold no grudges against anyone and I hope that no one holds any against me.
Now as long as I haven’t offended too many more people with this post I think I will disappear now as I feel a little awkward, outnumbered, beaten down and teamed-up on.
[EDIT] - lol wounldn’t not would that makes a huge difference.
