Part of the problem there is price points set by the company. They’d never put a game out that cheap anymore. Not even on sale. And who would buy a 100,000 word game for $3.99 compared to a 1,000,000 game for $8.99?
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What’s most interesting to me about the length of game issue is the question of replaying.
It took me a really long time to come to terms with the information that lots of players go for single playthrough, or a “one perfect playthrough,” which is seriously at odds with a game that wants to radically branch. If a very, very long game is spending a lot of its words on alternate paths (or writing five different chapter sevens) then that’s not really something that’s going to be quite as valuable to players who aren’t replaying.
There’s not no value, because just knowing that a game branches wildly gives even a one-time player a feeling that their choices mean something real; at the same time, it will turn off players who feel (rightly) that they are missing most of the game each time they play–they are, by design.
So while it is more efficient, dollars for words, to buy a longer game, I suspect that we have to be careful when we talk about this stuff: “longer game” of course can mean “longer experience” as well as “super branchy,” and those aren’t the same thing–indeed, they are often opposed. There’s a really hefty percentage of players for whom “super branchy-type-long” is not an asset AT ALL.
For some authors, I think the diminishing returns problem of writing very long interactive fiction is real.
Then there are games that try to do both, and that’s where the development time upwards of five years come into play.
I may eat my words in nine years when this thread gets resurrected (again) but I don’t think we’re going to see an analogous leap from 1 million plus word games to 3 million as a new norm.
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But then you get the other side of that question–will a 3+ million word game sell for $24.99? Definitely not. It’s a bit of a conundrum, and while Patreon helps solve the problem, I’m not 100% comfortable with that as the solution.
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It’s a terrible solution. It actively discourages completing stories, because there’s more money to be made milking subscriptions than there is in release, especially with how everything splits out between the author and the company. But even though I am anti-Patreon in general, I can’t fault writers, because it’s a hard temptation to turn down easy money. But it’s one that is fundamentally parasitic in nature, and runs the risk of depleting consumer goodwill in the long run.
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While I agree with your general point as far as the deeply incomplete solution that Patreon provides, I would argue with one of your points.
Specifically, that it’s easy money. I will let others who run their own Patreons chime in here, but maintaining a proper Patreon that offers real value for subscription is anything but. It takes a great deal of writing, thinking, and organizing. However, I do think we can stipulate that some Patreons take much less work, certainly.
“Milking” is pretty pejorative, suggesting that value is not being offered, and that there is something inherently manipulative about a subscription model, but I think that’s painting with too broad a brush. I get that reaction, though. I felt it too, and wish that the remuneration was simpler. I don’t know if there’s a better solution for very long games.
I do agree that Patreon can have a serious tension inherent in it if the writer uses it as a reason to write slowly and dilute content in order to streeeeetch things out month after month. I’ve often wondered if selling Choicescript content episodically, like a serial, would work. Very long games seem to need a new payment model.
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I was curious about the price for your 3 mil words. Some people were already complaining about the $11 price tag for 1 mil, so $24 is definitely going to be interesting to watch. I guess you’ll be the guinea pig for that one. 
The good news is that authors clearly aren’t slowing down when it comes to making longer games, so maybe readers should expect those price tags from now on.
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I have no idea, and I expect they won’t really talk about it until there’s an actual word count. We could be nudging closer to four than three million words by the time I get to the end…
But I can’t imagine what the right price could possibly be.
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Wow, congrats, man. That’s awesome!
It’s definitely going to be interesting to see how they market it.
Also. I agree with everything you say here.
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I’m not an author or a writer in any capacity (atleast, not yet), so I can’t make any arguments or comments about the costs and effort of writing an IF, or the pressure of justifiable pricing on a finished product. But I’d like to offer my two cents (wishful rambling) on the word count and enjoyability of an IF.
It’s true that there’s been an increase in IFs with very large word counts, and hence, there’s also an unspoken expectation where such size becomes the norm for many. There was a time when finished IFs with 100-300k words were considered long (in no way is that small, and actually pretty substantial even today), and now we have updates to WIPs of those size (some, not all, of course).
That being said, what I’ve noticed is that while the word count may attract the readers, that’s where it partly stops. It’s the story that gets readers to stay. It’s the story that keeps readers invested, regardless of the word count. When I start to like a story, I’m thinking of the plot, the premise, the characters, and not how much the word count is. If the story gets me hooked, I’m not dropping it regardless of the word count.
I’ve played games which were 50-100k words with such interesting premises that I came back for more, even just to play the same route again. And I’ve noticed games with impressively large word count where I just couldn’t stick to it, simply because the story didn’t catch my interest.
And yes, while there is going to be a shift where expectations will increase for more word counts, only a truly good story will make a game stand the test of time and keep the readers coming back for more, not just the word count. The fact that so many finished IFs till recent times, (whose word count may seem supposedly low as compared to the shifting norm now) have become a memorable part of the COG and HG community is proof of that.
So, I believe readers (or atleast this one), would appreciate and focus more on what kind of story the author wants to write, before fixating on the word count.
And while I may not fully understand the economic and practical struggles that many writers have to deal with, I hope that authors don’t get discouraged just because the word count of their game might seem comparatively low, because even a seemingly short story is better than no story at all.
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Yeah, I’m waaaay more likely to finish reading a game I don’t like if it’s not very long, because I can’t focus too long to it if I don’t like it, but short games are still readable.
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Honestly, I’m way more picky about CoGs and HG’s these days than I used to be. Part of that is just my tastes changing as I get older (still can’t believe I’ve been here 8 years lol), but another part of it is that CoGs and HGs are generally both longer and more expensive now than they used to be. I’d much rather have a cheaper, shorter game (200k words is ideal to me) that I know I can finish, than a more expensive behemoth that I probably won’t stay invested in. I’ve actually not bought games because they have a longer word count. And, to be honest, while the whole “long series/wip with irregular content updates and a regularly updated patreon” thing seems to be working for CoG and the authors on here, it’s kind of turned me off of the whole company, and more generally, the genre, as a consumer.
As for the issue of “replayability vs perfect playthrough,” I could go either way, but I generally prefer games where I can see all the content at once, since I don’t enjoy having to click through a lot of the same scenes during replays, even if I go down a different route. But then, those are just my opinions as a reader and player. It’s pretty clear that most fans and players feel differently than I do about a lot of these things.
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Expectations for 200k+ word games is also causing two important effects: firstly, most would-be authors are turned off at the thought of working on a such a large project. Secondly, it leads to burnout and unfinished WIPs, as authors reach for an overly ambitious word count target. Overall, this is a largely negative trend, similar to the professionalization of Youtube, where there’s no space for independent creators and everything is hyper-optimized. But, c’est la vie
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I understand the anxieties/frustration. However, I will say look at how drastically circumstances changed in just 10 years. Trends come and go. As more people, authors and readers both, burn out on ~slogging through~ a catalog of purely unwieldy games, I suspect the average size will shrink or at least diversity will be introduced into our ecosystem as it is with outside platforms. Sometimes, we must firmly continue being the change we want to see in the world before it catches on.
I would argue in a ruthlessly pragmatic sense, longer games are “always better” in a way, not quality or enjoyability wise, but in the sense there will never come a day they lose the natural high ground of there simply being more room for the game’s plot, world and characters to be thoroughly fleshed out. More to experience, engage with, talk about, think on for years past playing. Paralleled, in the literary publishing world, if you stack a masterful short story against an equally masterful full length novel, the novel has a much higher chance of winning popularity contests on the whole. More of a good thing, as they say. Same reason a solid series often garners the type of hype and excitement that the greatest of released standalones may struggle to—long games quite literally play the long gameTM burrowing inside a person’s memory and stirring anticipation which is powerful. However, shorter games have other factors in their favor on equal or permanently superior terms too. For one, they’re not fucking bloated and exhausting time sinks (pardon my language). Pros and cons.
TLDR and a little extra elaboration: these categories cater to different desires and are received differently, but the downside of writing shorter isn’t unique to CoG. Might be something we have to make peace with as a part of CoG having an expanded pool of writers and readers now, though not necessarily to the degree it currently presents.
They do. Keep in mind CoG is only a slice of the wider IF world. And the lands beyond this slice do tend to appreciate more variety (Not that no one in CoG’s base does, but you understand what I mean). I think that energy will return to CoG again to some extent too. A portion of the trend I believe is because there’s been a recent boom and competition rapidly shot into the ceiling. There was always “competition” of course, but it’s easier to be valedictorian in a class of three. It’ll mellow out. I’m in fact already seeing shorter games starting to be called for and worked on again. To mixed results, sure, but every tree grows from a sapling.
I would agree with this. Some superhumans can crank out 1 million plus words in a mere one to two years while somehow also having time for their life, but for most, it will eat years upon years. How many truly want to invest that much of themselves into one singular game each time they write? It’s not sustainable. We don’t have the projected lifespans for that shit, lol. Quite frankly, readers don’t have the spoons to read alllllll that either. The returns. They are indeed diminishing. Particularly since creating these games was never a project you take upon yourself for the doubtless riches that await on the other side in the first place.
This may sound like a bitchy statement though I hope it doesn’t, but I don’t think it’s entirely fair to blame the audience’s expectations for a historically universal phenomenon of creatives becoming demoralized. It’s definitely a steeper climb on the reception front if you as an author go against the grain and create the games you personally enjoy—and not just with word count! But no one’s truly stopping you from committing to that choice and whatever it entails except for you, ultimately (not *you*, hypothetical you). Quite a tangle of unrealistic expectations amongst would be authors both for themselves and for what kind of audience and profit their game should generate too. Even before the bar was raised, CoG wasn’t exactly turning out highly acclaimed money factory wips and finished products on the regular. We cannot rely solely on external motivation and point fingers at the players for not churning it out to our satisfaction.
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Just to put in my 2 cents for funsies:
As a reader, I prefer mid-sized games. There are some games in the CoG catalogue that I play and they go on and on and on and on and it drives me up the wall. Sometimes less is more.
Something, something, brevity is the soul of wit.
Then again, my V:tM game is 600k words, so who am I to talk? 
Never considered myself particularly witty.
Seriously though, I prefer a single playthrough length of about 70-100k words max, which is the size of a typical novel. (By that, I mean the actual text you read, not the total of the word count.) If it starts creeping over 100k for a single read, it better be really, really gripping or I’m checking out.
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I don’t know the specifics of how things are going for HG WiPs, but in other cases, I’ve witnessed plenty of successful Patreons causing the whole project to be practically infinitely delayed. As you said, the Patreon split is something like 5% (!) while it’s 75% at HG, so theoretically it would be more profitable to remain on Patreon foverer in some cases (since if you can get a lot of HG sales, you should also be able to get a lot of Patreon supporters anyway). Even if there’s no intention to delay, Patreon can still cause delayes through inflated expectations/promises. Perhaps something like Kickstarter (fixed amount of total support) could be better in a way……?
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As someone with a moderately successful Patreon, I definitely don’t consider it easy money, but it is profitable. This year, it’ll account for about 40% of my total income - and that’s counting the money I get from doing Chapter and Stat headers for CoG and the rather hefty advance from A Time of Monsters. Even on a good month, it’s equivalent to the amount of money I get from my combined royalties from CoG and HG.
Of course, part of the reason I have so many Patrons is because I have such a large catalogue. People would have no reason to show up for The Soldier’s Guide to the Infinite Sea if I were not already 2.2 million words and three games into the Dragoon Saga. On average, my Patreon demands about 15-20 hours of work a month, but I know that it wouldn’t be anywhere near as successful if not for the 140-200 hours of work I put in to the rest of my job.
That being said, I also know that by restricting myself entirely to ancillary worldbuilding articles and writing advice, I am intentionally reducing the appeal of my Patreon. I am fully aware that if I locked all development of Wars of Infinity behind a Patreon paywall, I could pretty easily get an income large enough to sustain me indefinitely. However, I categorically refuse to do that for two main reasons:
Firstly, I think it’d be scummy to circumvent Hosted Games’ cut in this way. While you could absolutely argue that a 75% cut is too high (and I’m not saying it isn’t), I also know that much of the value of my work comes from the level of visibility which the CoG mailing list provides, the ease-of-use of the Choicescript language they develop and maintain, and the support which they’ve given me over the past thirteen years both directly and via the moderation and maintenance of these forums. Whether that justifies a 75% cut is open for debate - all I know is that it’s worth a hell of a lot more than 0%.
Secondly, while I know it isn’t something which is actively enforced (it’s kind of an open secret to be honest), it is still against the rules to paywall a Hosted Games project behind a paywall for longer than a month of lead time. I think doing that sort of thing is exploitative and unethical for the reasons that @hustlertwo has already articulated. How other authors choose to enshittify their fanbases and development cycles via Patreon is not my concern (although it probably should be the concern of CoG staff), but that doesn’t mean I have to go along with it for a quick buck.
So yes, Patreon can be used in a way which I would consider unethical and which is against the stated terms and conditions, but it is possible to not do that and still make a decent income off of it.
It requires a lot more work - but I’d rather do the honest work, and take the extra time doing it, than become the Interactive Fiction equivalent of YandereDev.
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It could also be used in a way that’s against Finnish law… i.e. providing subscription that’s worthless, which would equal to asking for donations, which is illegal here outside of charity organizations, but that obviously applies only to Finnish citizens residents providing Patreon content.
I’m not sure I’d be cut out to have a Patreon in either case - for one, I couldn’t count on my ability to provide significant new content monthly, now that Apple made them drop the per-content billing; and if I actually bother writing something substantial enough to justify the cost, I’d want as many eyes on it as possible.
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Yeah, YandereDev was the main example I was thinking about for bad Patreon practices. I certainly didn’t mean that all, or even most, HG authors have done anything like that over the years.
I guess I can sort of understand why someone would do that, though. If you don’t have a real day job, and you simply need a steady income every month (especially to support a family etc.), there can be cases where the only way to continue writing is to aggressively monetize Patreon (such as paywalling ChoiceScript content which is, as you mentioned, not really allowed). I’m not sure if it would be ultimately a net benefit for CoG to strictly enforce that rule. After all, the forcibly monetized Patreon supporters are directly funding the development process of a game that will (hopefully) eventually provide most of its sales revenue back to CoG. Punishing/banning that author may just cut off a large pie of future revenue for the company, if the game will then never be finished, rather than increasing CoG’s share of the total revenue. In essence: 30-50% of a future hit game is still better than 75% of nothing!
I personally think 75% is likely a bit too much for HG’s share, but not really predatory at all. There is certainly a lot of value in ChoiceScript, the existing community/playerbase and especially the easy distribution/visibility to all the major platforms (where a fully indie release can easily just get buried forever, especially in Google Play Store). If one thinks CoG doesn’t deserve a big share of the profits, they’re probably just economically illiterate and/or a communist (often the same thing…).
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I don’t have a “real day job”.
I’ve been doing this full-time since I graduated university, and I’ve done it while supporting others too. I can’t speak to other people or their situations (I live in a very walkable transit-friendly city in a reasonably functional country, which means what I pay extra in rent, I make up for in not having to own or maintain a car, or having to pay for health or dental insurance), but I can do it - and I have been doing it since I was making two thirds (on a good month) what I do now.
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So here’s a ramble from strictly a fan who has no knowledge on the business or writer side of things:
As a rule, I much prefer longer works. I don’t think shorter works are not worth it, but in my experience, a vast majority of works shorter than 250k words (in total) just don’t have … enough time for plot to settle? Take Rent-a-Vice or The Road to Canterbury. Both are terrific, unique works with beautiful writing and fun inventory systems. But they’re both under 200k—and it shows. I loved 3/4s of each book, but the ending to me, was rushed. Maybe the author had deadlines to meet; maybe they were burnt out. I don’t know. But I was left with a slightly bitter taste in my mouth at the end. I felt that each ending needed more time and more words. Some subplots were half-hearted; some romances were shallow. If you’re going to commit, do it well, ya know? So this may not be pleasant to hear, but if a title is under 250k, my interest in reading it goes down. I just don’t know if the author can properly wrap up everything.
I have also noticed word counts have ticked upward. I don’t have any specific numbers, but it seems like a lot of the ones I have in my wishlist, at least, are about 300k to 500k in total (with obvious outliers). I will admit, a big part of my monkey brain goes “more words = better.” As for price, I honestly think the pricing for CoG/HG titles are pretty fair. I’m coming from a privileged standpoint—I have plenty of money to spare for video games—but I feel prices have ticked up a bit? From what I’ve seen as a customer, it seems the longer the work, the more USD it is on Steam. I think the highest prices I’ve seen were $11-15 for titles from the V:tM series. I want to support the writer and the company, so I don’t mind the prices, in general.
It’s just hard to battle for readers’ attention, I suppose. I don’t know how to quantify an IF, anyway. I bought Watch Dogs 2 for about $8. Granted, it was published a while ago, but it has co-op and has a main story that’s at least 20 hours. 8 bucks for 20+ hours of fun seems good to me. Compare $8 for a 3-4 hour text-based game. I mean, I would happily shell out $8 for writers I admire, or for works that are 500k+, but would the general audience?
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