So, interestingly enough, as far as the game’s factions are set up, the foederati are opposed by the People of Kyro, rather than the people of the empire as a whole. The idea being that the citizenry of the capital have a privileged status in the Empire and they are not keen on diminishing their privileges by having to share with the foederati, who require concessions and granting of status of their own. Thus their interests do not appear to be compatible.
we don’t know necessarily — or at least I don’t think Azan has told us (someone please correct me if I’ve forgotten) — where the other citizens of the Empire fall into this, whether they’d be in favor or against. Are they more sympathetic to the traditional city-state populace of the capital, or are they more sympathetic to the foederati on the periphery and feel similarly slighted by the capital? I’m quite curious myself.
The capital is the primary power base for Ceto’s populists, but I reference her populist movement having support throughout the urban centers of the Empire’s metropole (ie Iudia proper rather than the provinces), so it’s not just based out of a single city, even if that’s the biggest city in the known world.
In any case, there are considerable political and economic reasons why the People of Iudia fiercely oppose the rising power of the foederati, which has threatened the historic institutions, rights and privileges they’ve enjoyed, and also has been shifting the locus of power and the utility that bestows upon those near it away from them and where they call home.
I would say the various peoples who make up the teeming millions of imperial citizenry are too diffuse to characterize in a general sense of political opinion. You get the opinions of a few different sorts of groups of citizens over the course of the story, such as speaking with the Seyetite envoy in Chapter III, the Hevernican legionnaires in Chapter V, and in Chapter VIII you can speak with a high ranking Ezperian and get the sense of the sentiments coming from that province.
There’s a reason why ‘Public Favor’ refers to the classically defined public residing in the metropole, and isn’t affected by say the decision to commandeer grain from Seyet. The closest thing to a generalized overall political opinion would be the Stability stat, but even then that stat is abstracted and all-encompassing to the degree that it can’t just be a simple measure of popular opinion.
I would say that the foederati do not represent all peoples on the periphery of the Empire, though the Chapter VII exchange between the exiled ruler of Hadat in a foederati alliance route draws upon the similar interests between client and federated states, but if we’re talking about citizens, those are largely Gaian in their faith and largely subscribe to the idea of a larger Iudian culture, even with significant local and regional variances. There is tension there between the culturally Gruth (or Gruth-Iudian cultural convergence that you can see developing with Antonius/Amalrik and Euric) and largely non-Gaian foederati, particularly in the parts of the Empire most exposed to the foederati peoples such as Hevernica.
Thanks! Very informative. I considered speculating that it’s likeliest that the people of Iudia proper would identify with those of Kyro, so this all tracks. They’re part of the same imperial core, as you note. Reminds one of the privileged status of Italia prior to Italian provincialization under Diocletian, which all tracks.
And indeed, that example bears out what exactly the people of Iudia fear happening if centers of power arise elsewhere other than the traditional imperial heartlands. Interestingly in the Roman example, the People of Rome did retain their particular privileges as even Diocletian, who famously hated the City and the People, didn’t dare mess with them and risk getting toppled. Easier to keep them fed and happy.
I also expect that even within each provinces, there are different interest groups and power bases — each with their own views on the Empire and what it means for them. The elite may feel differently to the commons, rural vs urban, soldier vs civilian, etc
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I’m sure it also includes elite opinion, internal unrest, societal cohesion, etc. It’s the Empire stat which feels the most abstracted — and yet for my Duty prefect, likely the most important (others may vary, the legions certainly have a low opinion of me for this )
This too makes a lot of sense. Peripheries have their own interests and I don’t necessarily know of many examples of them all making common cause (although the clearest example is the subject states of the Neo-Assyrian Empire teaming up to eradicate their oppressor). The added wrinkle is definitely those who are citizens and therefore think of themselves as Iudian fo some extent.
thank you for the clarifications, Azan! Super enlightening, as always. One follow up question — how does citizenship work in the Empire? Is Iudia as generous with citizenship as Rome was? If so, what stage are we at — is it a limited grant to certain provinces, communities, or classes? Are we instead at a late antique universal citizenship? And since Gaian religion was mentioned, is that linked to citizenship in the way that Christianity eventually became with the late Romans and Byzantines?
Of course. Even the groups that I’ve described are just representatives of particular sections of society or individual interest groups. I abstract out them into the Empire and Reputation stats because this isn’t exactly a spreadsheet simulator game, even if it’s on the stat heavy side overall.
By this point in the story, we’ve arrived at a more universal citizenship model in Iudia. The only residents of the Empire I haven’t described as citizens are those from the foederati and client states.
It very much is. This is explored more in the foederati alliance scenes in Chapter II and Chapter VII, with tensions rising over religion. If you go down the path of integration with the foederati alliance (a path you’re able to determine by the Legate’s attitude), figuring out how to reconcile or otherwise deal with the cultural and religious differences that are seen as prerequisite for citizenship.
[…]
Switching tracks somewhat, I’ve been working on a few overall revisions as I continue with Chapter VIII, and I have been looking back on suggestions that have been recommended to me previously.
One that’s stood out despite the revisions I’ve made in the past to it is that Subterfuge appears widely regarded as the weakest skill by readers, despite the fact that the game centers a great deal on intrigue. The last thing I want is to have accidentally set a trap option for readers taking that at face value (which they have every right to), so I thought I’d reach out here and get some thoughts:
Are there any scenes or instances that you felt a Subterfuge option to address a problem, gain insight into a character, react differently to a situation, or some other important interaction could have been warranted but wasn’t provided for?
I think the problem is that the main conflict (Victoria being hidden away and negotiating with imperial factions secretly) feels like something that would be resolved with high subterfuge. When the plot kinda depends on the prefect not having information, it makes the stat that specialises in having information seem weak. I’m not sure there’s a reasonable way to have the “spying on people” stat not seem really useless when there’s a decade long massive conspiracy under our noses the entire time that we cannot detect without drastically altering the story. Rhetoric and warfare offer a way to solve conflicts, but subterfuge’s whole thing would be preventing them in the first place, but if we do that, the story can’t really happen.
That is a bit of a conundrum. I believe the best compromise given that’s not something I can really change, is to allow a Subterfuge focused character to mitigate/lessen the effects of the the Victoria/Iblin plot. I’ve considered adding another part to the end of Chapter V with a Subterfuge focused character realizing that something might be up and giving you the option to make some preparations to give a bonus to a certain part of the Battle of Kyro (such as allocating additional forces to one of the four locations that can be battled in, reducing the Warfare check/Arcanii loss/time loss involved in dealing with it).
Just to be clear, that was merely an observation, not a critique. I have no objections to how the stats are laid out nor do I have any interest in a spreadsheet simulator — I prefer the character focus of CK to the spreadsheets of Victoria, so to speak.
The other bits of info are just fine as background lore, known by our character or by the players.
I really just meant that I understood and was appreciative of your grasp of politics and interest groups, since interrogating these is part of what the game seems to be about.
Ah, very good. You see the gaps in knowledge I’d have as a player who’s ignored the foederati alliance options, but things my prefect would likely know.
Appreciate the clarifications! The universal citizenship model closely tied to religion all tracks.
I think this might be a good option. As someone who has played high subterfuge it was a bit surprising at some points that we would not be more informamed or have some kind of hint. For example as youve mentioned above, why wouldnt we have any idea that some plot was happening or at the very least why wouldnt we be suspicious or have tabs on Leta? Why would we not prepare for another assassination attempt? Why wouldnt we know who Titus was being influenced by or be able to trick him into saying who? To be fair, I havent played all the way through in a while so maybe I missed something. Regardless, I dont think this needs to change the plot but with a high subterfuge could lesson the damage or give a bonus at a later date.
One example I can think of specifically with subterfuge not being helpful was gaining info on Ceto then relaying it to Consentia but she already knew, so what was the point of the stat check? It gained you no leverage in negotiating. Honestly I feel like it should be easier to balance factions or be able to blackmail more with a high subterfuge.
I actually kinda think subterfuge should be removed as a stat. Its so hard to justify “you spent years being a brilliant spymaster, sniffing out threats to julia” when we get absolutely blindsided by a plot involving like 4 different factions (the cadmians, the galereii, hadat, and whichever faction we didn’t ally with)
Surely a talented spymaster (because the prefect is extremely good at whatever it is you specialise them in) would have had eyes in at least 1, if not more of these factions, especially after the first attempt on our lives. Like, I called Diana being victoria 2 chapters early and I’m not a legendarily competent spymaster. Especially after it comes out that Iblin (who was the main ally of one of the galerian factions) is behind the attack, we’d at least increase scrutiny of the galerii somewhat.
It just feels like a subterfuge focused prefect has to be much worse at their job than any of the other ones for the story to work.
Just so I’m clear (because I am writing this with a very low amount of sleep so there’s solid odds the entire thing is complete gibberish, so sorry about that) I don’t have a problem with the plot requiring us to be taken by surprise by Victoria, I just think that it specifically doesn’t make sense if we’re a spymaster focused prefect
preparation is good step, another thing i can think off is fact that darius is smugling hes troops, hes plot is not really pivotal as you can kill him in these chapter or deal with him other ways so maybe extrimy high subterfuge can learn that hes smugling troops and deal with him before it becomes problem(can even be better then com becouse you dont losse any time at all which would be massive bonnus ). From narative standpoint i would like that if our spys actualy Learned about betrayl/rebelion And then get killed before they can deliver these information.
it can also have same effect as military for gurthundi military campaing subterfuge letting you assasinate other tribe leader or taking hostages or giving your troops inforamtion about enemy deployement so it gose better for our armys.
Both are good points. I can edit Consentia’s dialogue to make that revelation that the Prefect can make non-superfluous, and add a reward for giving the information (Consentia could gift an amount of Resources in return for it.)
That’s also a good point, that a Subterfuge character would be more skilled at balancing the factions. I’ll add a bonus to the compromise stat for a high Subterfuge character, which will be a good converse side to the fact that if you decide to resolve the civil war violently, you’ll have a range of powerful options granted by Subterfuge to use in Chapter VIII and Chapter IX. A hint there is that the poison acquired in Chapter III will come in handy for such a Subterfuge focused Prefect…
I don’t have any intent to remove Subterfuge as a stat. In addition to requiring major revisions of the story and mechanics, I want to be able to address the problem I inadvertently created. I’ve developed the thought that the Subterfuge Prefect could be able to figure out that an attack is happening in Chapter V through their spies, but not know who (thus leading into ordering troops around in pre-battle maneuvers such as I referenced earlier), and edit the dialogue and text in Chapter VI to showcase the Prefect’s foresight.
In addition, going off of a suggestion made to me on another platform, I plan to give an option for a Subterfuge Prefect who has learned of Iblin’s role in the assassination to send spies into Hadat that while not giving warning in time, can sabotage the Hadati forces and make the battle a bit easier.
I wouldn’t say Darius’ plot isn’t pivotal, you’ll be seeing that in the final chapters. This shouldn’t be too shocking of a revelation but if Darius escapes after sabotaging the Spire, you’ll be seeing him and the Pharian army later in the story again as foes.
However, I can see the possibility of a Subterfuge Prefect who didn’t free Darius’ smuggler ally being able to learn of weapons and warriors being smuggled into the city even if their provenance is not known, and clamping down on it. This could lead to a reduction in the Warfare check/Arcanii loss/time loss involved with dealing with Darius’ attack.
That’s a good idea as an explanation, and I can see that in the Gruthungian campaign. If you choose to fight Gaizaz’s Confederation, it could lead to a reduction in Power loss.
i meant in a way there is already one way where we can kill him, technicaly 2 so it would just add one more way to get on that route and would not cause another branch and complexity for game. im sure darius ally or enemy and dead will develop very difrently
combined warfare and subterfuge check for best resulte but yhea very happy to see these even as replacement stat for warfare
At the risk of being argumentative, all of this is still just letting subterfuge reduce the difficulty of other, more useful stat checks. If all subterfuge really does is make some warfare checks easier to pass, why bother levelling it up rather than just levelling warfare, which can be used for a bunch of other things as well?
I just don’t understand how a prefect who’s main speciality is spycraft can work with the plot requiring them not to spot a massive conspiracy that’s been building for years. Even disregarding the mechanical problems subterfuge has, it just makes it seem like a prefect of the collection is either much less competent than the other options, or is actively sabotaging Julia’s reign.
i would argue there is no real massive conspiracy for years, Senate and foderati dont get on victorias side until gurthundi campaign. We did know that ibhin was posibly alive and did try to kill him multiplay times, and as for gaelin family(previous empress one i cant remember name) they are not really doing that much things for most of time and even then They where right hand of empress after all and one of biggest family so its not like we are geting outsmarte by nobody, Real plots start very recently after victoria gets spear and at that time we are distracted by invasion, julias falling health and few other things. I do belive subterfuge can work curent problem is that spy master player learns about plots and about rebelion close to same time as other characters which is main problem. if they can get learn about it before even faintly which would give them chance to react then i think it would be good from storys point
You don’t need Warfare to succeed in Chapter VI, considering you can defer to the Arcanii Commander. What I’m working on now is that it will reduce the time and Arcanii loss involved, allowing you to go through the battle with more complete forces and in less time that will not require direct leadership in combat.
Ultimately, this is a story that has a core of political intrigue, which inherently involves plots and betrayals as a central aspect of that genre, and the MC is not the only player in the game of intrigue (their main rival in this regard being Leta, who is older, more experienced, was in the same office for much longer, and was able to plant her own agents in Julia’s employ such as the Centurion Gaius).
I want to do my best to make each of the skills feel impactful when used over the course of the story, which is why I’ve solicited this feedback.
My issue isn’t specifically that we get outmanouvered, its that regardless of our supposed skill at intrigue we get outmanouvered in exactly the same way. I don’t have a problem with Leta massively outclassing us at intrigue per se, its just that when your whole character is built around the intrigue stat and runs the imperial intelligence agency (I know it isn’t that formal but I can’t think of a better way to describe it) it really just feels like you’ve wasted all your stat points. It’d be like if we were garaunteed to lose the war with gruthugnia regardless of our skill with warfare. I know we aren’t the only player, but as it stands it doesn’t seem like subterfuge affects how much of one we are at all.
I possibly phrased that complaint badly, but my point is more that the usual best outcome for those fights is with warfare, and letting subterfuge be tested instead still doesn’t give a reason to focus on subterfuge over warfare.
All the other stats have something unique to them, where we can really feel competent in our chosen speciality, like economics resolving 3 crises over the course of an afternoon. But subterfuge’s thing seems to just be letting you pass a few checks for other (generally more useful) stats, or learn information that doesn’t really affect the plot (yet at least)
i think propsed adition should make subterfuge much more fun stat to play with. and make us feel like competent spy master. like Mechanicaly Scholarship is worse stat by far and i dont see anyone complaining about it, becouse it gets cool stuff to do, before eye it did not really do anything that interesting but now it has major pay off. same could be true for subterfuge(i whant to assasintae somone ) if it will have fun outcomes in future i think people will stop complaining about it being weak. what it needs is some early game flavour and buff which i think if above sujections go through it will have, so it dose not fell bead even in early game.
This happens in Chapter VIII (for both Scholarship and Subterfuge actually, on the two major situations that the chapter contains.) There will also be another unique Subterfuge opportunity in Chapter IX. For both, I would suggest ensuring your Subterfuge character holds onto the poison gained in Chapter III, though it isn’t strictly required, will make you much more successful at arranging an assassination.
Though I know it’s frustrating to be told that “it’s coming soon,” so I hope to implement the suggestions that have been made here and elsewhere. I also plan to let you use Subterfuge to teach Augusta in Chapter I, though that will be less of a separate skill (because I’ve established why that’s uniquely not something Augusta can straight up learn as easily) and more as a way to substitute the requirement for and enhance another choice.
il probably do subterfuge run when update comes out to see how good it is, i would expect it to be on level of warfare or rhetoric both very solid skills. Econ is still best
)
but yhea very happy to see these even as replacement stat for warfare