idk how to explain it , but no more like, you can choose what gender you want to be and what you present as…
like if you choose to be non binary you can still choose a male body and if i understood correctly (i could be wrong but it’s what i understood) the male gay character will be a little more open and understanding so you can still romance him.
I’m confusing myself. sorry if i’m not making sense it’s late and i’m tired
I’m basically talking about a solution for NB characters and gay/lesbian NPCs know?
That seems to be a good solution. I suppose that’s another layer to add in the character creation, but it seems like it would be a good way to handle that so that it can be more immersive for the player. I’ve been struggling with how to implement this myself, and this seems like an easy way to handle this issue.
Oh. No, no, no. You need to stay away from anything which basically ask about what we have in our trousers.
If someone want to do a double ask. Ask about gender + gender presentation. Anything about what we have under our clothes risk trigger trans people’s dysphoria and we are not just talking about non-binary trans people either. It might also inflict binary trans people simply by being there.
I know it matters in real life, but now we moved from unfair numbers of RO to actually inflicting real harm on someone by accident.
Anyone who ask about the sex of the body really, really, really need to be careful in how they ask. Nine times out of ten it is not worth it.
I mean, it works very well in SOS, as the character is able to actually change what their body looks like.
But any WIP where that isn’t the case should steer away from physical sex characteristics…
I know I’d be really unconfortable if the story suddenly draws attension to my NB/transman MC’s breasts, without my permission.
That … still sounds pretty bad to me. Transitioning is a weird, complicated process, and I really wouldn’t want my physical body boiled down to “male or female,” and if “neither” is an option then I don’t know why the question has to be asked instead of just being up to the player. Trying to put trans people’s bodies into words and options is way more often than not just overcomplicating the process. Like @DreamingGames said, asking a nonbinary person whether they present with one gender or another is alright, depending on how it’s handled–I thought Eagle’s Heir did it alright, although I really wish it was in a more accepting setting (and I was beyond frustrated that androgynous options were locked to characters who said they were comfortable presenting as both a man and a woman, when people who would prefer to be androgynous but will tolerate one of the binary genders if necessary aren’t exactly uncommon) but tying that up with physical characteristics is … messy, and can be very off-putting. I don’t wanna judge this one game I haven’t played but “if the MC is in control of their physical characteristics, that makes it okay to ask nonbinary MCs what’s in their pants” is a bad precedent. And that’s clearly an oversimplification of the argument, as quoted from our handy neighborhood strawman, but I don’t think it’s something that should become widespread, and I can’t really think of a scenario where it would be necessary to know. I don’t want to judge a game I haven’t played, maybe it handles it a lot better than I’m assuming, but by these descriptions I don’t really want to play it.
And y’know, coming back around to nonbinary people and gay men or lesbians–some of them are comfortable dating a nonbinary person who presents close enough to their preferred gender, some aren’t. Some nonbinary people would rather not date someone who says they’re attracted to one gender exclusively anyway. I know “just have a lot of ROs with their own individual preferences” has kind of been repeated to death, but it really does depend on the person
Rereading what I wrote, I can see I didn’t express what I meant probably. Sorry.
The character in SOS is an angel, so not a physical being. They don’t have a sex or gender before the point where they decide what they want their body to look like. And the game have very explicit (optional) sex scenes, which I suppose is why it’s a thing at all.
I really liked being able to choose a non-standard body, if I wanted to.
I meant something like that, or if the MC is some kind of shapeshifter, with no set gender…
EDIT: And it should be optional, with a choice not to specify.
Well, I was sort of thinking like a cast which already has two gay guys, where one would be male-only and one would be male+nb, but there are a lot of permutations, sure.
Plus, one can also do interesting things with characters who have a gender preference, but can potentially be romanced by another gender, just with a different threshold
I think more options to nuance nonbinary choices would be really great, yeah and I guess in addition to things like presentation, there’s also identities like demiguy and demigirl… I’m pretty sure I’m a demiguy myself actually () but I’ve just been choosing male options in CoGs. I’m not really sure what functionally would be different in the text itself in such a case though I still think it could be nice.
I did really like in Monsters of New Haven High how I had the option for my character to identify as male but also as feminine
Admittedly, if you’re considering presentation for ROs, you may still have cases like “feminine demiguy,” which I guess is how I feel and, well, I prefer to be romanced by someone who likes guys
Everything is complicated
But yeah, even if you factor all that in, that does leave main characters who choose nonbinary and androgynous where you’ll need to decide which ROs go for them… which I think gets back to the case-by-case basis
Sorry, this isn’t really what I meant I was not saying that you shouldn’t have higher numbers of LGBT characters—I would happily enjoy reading something with an all-LGBT cast, for example, and I usually have quite high LGBT proportions in anything I write—just that I would consider a 20% ratio for non-romance characters to be acceptable. It still means there’s representation. I’m not saying it’s better to aim for that than any other way… you can go for what will make sense for these characters.
I was mainly going for explaining why a low amount of romance options for a gay main character would be a dealbreaker in a way that it wouldn’t be in the rest of the cast. Which, yes; that is what would and would not keep me from buying something. Representation outside of ROs can and should have a huge impact, and I’m all for it! But when it comes to giving the player a fair experience, one in which you do not feel like you’re being limited and even discriminated against for playing a gay person… the romance options are what will make the most direct impact. A character who’s not an RO will have the same standing with the main character, whatever your orientation; your orientation will not change their story. You can get the same amount of enjoyment and storyline from such a character whoever you are. And if they’re gay, great; I’d love to see this! But when the character is an RO, that means that your orientation is changing how much you get out of their story.
Never mind. It’s getting way to late here and I am tired. I’ll sleep on it.
I just want to say that at no point did I ever say anything about wanting to romance gays and lesbians. In my da:i example I even came to the conclusion that it was better to open the two straigths up, because they were the ones where it loses the least.
I don’t know how to feel about everybody suddenly talking about gays and lesbian and I am not sure why it upsets me that that is where we suddenly focused.
Speaking from my own position as a trans/non binary person I do prefer the option to cement the characteristics of ‘whats in my characters pants’ while also being given the option to choose what I identify as. But that’s a different topic.
I get what you’re saying if it was an irl situation but in a game where you basically create your chatacter how you want it to be i honestly dont see a big deal with it. But that’s just me I guess.
Honestly, I’m not sure it’s possible for anyone with 100% accuracy to ever fully label or define exactly what is gender identity.
It’s a broad array of things. There is no real uniform standard of what it is, even amongst the people who fall into “categories” outside of it. Like I said before, people are individuals and they don’t bear a unilateral form of thinking.
But here’s the thing. There doesn’t need to be a definition. It’s a natural reaction for humans to try and categorize information under absolute labels, but a lot of things rarely can be anyway.
This sounds counter intuitive…but this is what I do. I just don’t really think too hard about it. I am who I am. When I was still what you’d call “confused” about it, I looked into it on various sites, but none of the terms seemed readily fit to describe me as a person. But then…they don’t have to be.
That’s how other people define themselves. Not me.
And of course, gender identity is NOT the same as sexual orientation.
Yeah, that mostly tells me I should play the game before I comment further on it. Honestly, it still doesn’t sound great to me, but I guess it depends on a lot of factors–how “human” the player is supposed to read the main character as matters a lot in this kind of scenario. I get that they’re not actually a human being but if they’re picking a human body and a gender identity, I kind of assume the player is meant to read them as basically being a person, in which case my issues would still largely apply–and if they’re picking a human body and being a binary trans person is an option, that’s kind of it’s own subset of potential issues that aren’t really suited to this thread (whether or not it’s a respectful portrayal of transness, setting it up as something someone chooses to be could be pretty weird). It really is just kind of a complicated issue but I’m always going to err on the side of “don’t ask me about that.”
And wrt how that works with explicit sex scenes–that’s been discussed in the adult section already if you want to read through it. I don’t think it’s appropriate to rehash all the points outside of the adult section, but I am aware that including that content complicates the issue
But it would be possible to think of binary sexualities as someone who are “not attracted to feminine representations” and “not attracted to masculine representations”, so you can avoid (as an example) a lesbian who is fine with dating masculine presenting enbies. Which is closer than having to include all enbies for every available RO.
… …
I want to give all genders the ability to choose different expressions in my own WIP, but I’m still considering how I want to implement it, and to what degree. If I go for the amount of realism I would like, then having differing indentity and expression would result in occasional mis-gendering, which I know a lot of people would hate. Maybe make it optional? I don’t know…
I guess I’d say, at least for my part, gay and lesbian representation is really important to me, and I value those ROs, whereas heterosexual representation doesn’t seem like an issue that requires quite as much discussion? Since it’s pretty well prevalent throughout the media already.
Sorry the conversations been so draining for you
As a theoretical question, in a game in which reproduction could come up, how would someone go about handling that? Would it be best if they’d just directly ask about that, without reference to the bodyparts themselves?
(This isn’t something I have any actual plans for, but I understand it’s something that could come up in some stories, especially epilogue material, though admittedly it would be irrelevant to the vast majority…)
Hm, what about I carried the child / my partner carried the child / we adopted/ it was storks, obviously. Would that suit for most things, do you think?
This is actually something I have considered, in general and specific to my WIP.
If a WIP has political marriages, or having an heir of the right bloodline is important, then bodyparts might be more important (for that specific instance) than presentation.
One of the ways I have thought about implementing these things in my WIP was by having an NPC talking about their children, and then the MC can say something like:
“I want/don’t want to be a father/mother/parent some day.”
The terms “mother/father” isn’t gendered in the MC’s culture, but purely about the persons role in procreation, and the “parent” choice would be there for people who really don’t want to specify.
It’s a really difficult thing, as some people think such choices add to their representation in a story, while others might feel pressured to choose what “their real gender” is, which sucks.
I’m sorry. I’m rather confused. I thought that is exactly what they said :gender and present as… . How is that different than what you said? And why would that be harmful?
They said you can be nonbinary (gender) and choose a male body (reflective of assigned gender). Assigned gender and gender presentation are very different–someone can be assigned male, have a “male” body, but still have a feminine gender presentation, or vice versa. Or not, there are cis folks a-plenty who identify with their assigned gender and so have a gender presentation that matches their assigned gender, but they’re still different things, they just happen to match sometimes
Knowing the way the game works, where the MC literally chooses their own body, the intent/assumption probably is that a nonbinary person who wants a masculine gender presentation will choose a male body. So it would then make sense for a person attracted only to men to still potentially be attracted to this hypothetical nonbinary person, who still has masculine characteristics and so can come across as male
However, outside of that context–it very much sounds like that example conflates gender presentation and assigned gender. So being assigned male at birth or having a “male” body would therefore also present in a masculine way. Or that a person attracted only to men would still be attracted to this nonbinary person based solely on the fact that they have a “male” body, regardless of what their actual gender presentation is. It’s a transphobic viewpoint that’s harmful because it prioritizes assigned gender over anything else about the character
Well, this sounds all kinds of complicated. It sounds like no matter what solutions people try to come up with, there are others who have a problem with it.
I think I’ll just avoid having NB as an option since apparently I don’t understand this well enough to not cause trouble, which is too bad since I thought @nulCat’s explanation was a good way to keep player immersion and add more inclusiveness.
edited to add: You know, perhaps I’ll just implement it anyway and see how it goes down. One or two people in here having an objection is not enough of a deterrent. All I want to make sure is that during intimate/romantic moments, I’m not alluding to an area of the body that doesn’t jive with the player.
Don’t be sorry, I chose to participate, knowing it could upset me, and you are generally nice to discuss it with. Anyway I slept on it.
The reason I am concerned with the sudden focus on the same sex RO is that we are still talking about RO the enby can romance.
Generally I am still against an orientation lock, because nine time out of ten it is more trouble than it is worth, but I do have a small inkling of sympathy for the gay and lesbian writers who just want RO like themselves - in fact that is the only sympathy I have.
I also have in mind that someone who dates an enby has at least a somewhat nuanced attraction towards gender. It could open the writer for critic that the character is ‘not really gay’. it’s bullshit of course, but gatekeeping is alive and very real. So with that in mind, I do think it is better (in the case of six ro) to make the straights hetero-‘flexible’ rather than make the same sex attracted ‘homo-flexible’. If the whole point of genderlock is to ensure gay and lesbian ro, then there is no reason to cry that there are no ‘real’ straight. It’s not like they lack representation.
Anyway, I don’t think I’ve much new to add. I wanted to point out that Non-binary mc’s rarely play well with the genderlocked ro’s.
That it gets very complicated very fast.
And that in trying to solve it we can easily make some nasty assumption about the non-binary mc. It’s not like I have a good solution, because I am not entirely sure one exists.
Outside of enbies, if we talk purely representation, another way to go could be to have, for example, four bi and/or pan RO’s (or more) and one lesbian and/or gay RO. I think there is some WIPs in here who actually do something like that.
That does mean that same sex attracted MC has more options, but everybody still has options and we get to keep the representation. Things does not necessarily have to be a hundred percent equal.
I see your point… I’d just further emphasize that being able to have gay ROs is really the only reason I would want gender-locking in romances in the first place.
That is one crux of it for me, along with the representation-related excitement it can give gay and lesbian readers too (while acknowledging that bi/pan representation is also a big deal)… that, and if a character has been conceived as gay, it feels very wrong to rewrite such a character to be bi/pan.
Yeah, I guess it can vary a lot depending on the individuals involved, and real people can have exceptions that don’t invalidate their overall orientation, but which wouldn’t really be as easy to implement in a game. For me, I still identify on the male side of things, just not 100%, so my boyfriend’s attraction to me is definitely, well, gay, but I realize it can be much less cut-and-dry for people whose identities are… less connected to the binary, I guess you’d say? (I’m still close enough to the binary that I really can’t claim the same level of effect from all this as many other people would.)
I would consider one choicescript example, though… Zombie Exodus: Safe Haven features the character Tommy (a favorite of mine, notably), who was already portrayed as gay before being made an RO. I certainly think it was entirely necessary that he remain so. Once nonbinary MCs were added as an option, he also became available as an RO for them… and I never really felt that to be inappropriate, or to invalidate him. There’s checks in there to keep him from misgendering the MC. I felt it was rather nice to have that open
Oh, yeah, I mean, if things are imbalanced on the gay side, that’s just mitigating the more prevalent imbalance elsewhere. I’m all in favor of that
and I guess in addition to things like presentation, there’s also identities like demiguy and demigirl… I’m pretty sure I’m a demiguy myself actually (
) but I’ve just been choosing male options in CoGs. I’m not really sure what functionally would be different in the text itself in such a case 
though I still think it could be nice.
…
Would it be best if they’d just directly ask about that, without reference to the bodyparts themselves? 
