Sexuality and NPCs

You have something anyway it’s the roaring 20s if there is a Harlem Renaissance going on in your game you could have that where the homosexual and Lesbian characters are. The same double lined out for you is this is the 1920s it’s incredibly racist and hyper masculine both in the positive and toxic meaning. Also wildly you’re off topic but could we have your expy of Jay Gatsby. I wish we could save him from himself.

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Yep, as you’ve correctly surmised, I’ve gone for roughly 20% as what I (perhaps mistakenly) assumed was a “fair representation”, so I’m naturally concerned that I’m still missing the point here.

The game does have its own representation of the 1920s LGBTQ scene, as best I was able to research things, but if it would still be lacking something to be “well-balanced” then I’m keen to get to the root of that and see what more can be done… within reason.

Perhaps one for the Vendetta WIP thread, once resurrected!

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The thing is to gangster culture again hyper-masculine by it very nature. In the most toxic fashion is one of the most consistent aspects of it to this day. It comes down to if you are in a job that one of its main components involve killing somebody as the job description it’s going to be incredibly masculine and not the best variation. For example in your game with the male protagonist is gay they have to be incredibly closeted. Because it will literally affect how other members view them and not in a positive light it could be actually make some really interesting subplots.

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Well, firstly, self-reported LGBTQ percentages are always going to be lower than the actual numbers. I guess 20% is a better proportion than the 2% given above, but I’ve certainly seen suggestions that half of all – or even all – people are at least slightly (subconsciously) bisexual, but in most cases they don’t even realise it. And then there are biromantic people, who would be fine with a romantic relationship with anyone, even if they’re not sexually attracted to them.

But that’s not really important. As I’ve said before, what’s “realistic” (or at least what seems to be realistic) isn’t that important, especially for a game. What’s important is ensuring that people (whether they’re LGBTQ or not) enjoy the game. And if there’s only one option for gay players but four for straight players, then it’s not going to be as enjoyable for gay players, and I’d also wonder exactly why the writer thought that having one option for gay players vs four options for straight players would be seen as fair.

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Thanks for that, and especially for the link. It’s certainly something to ponder.

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Yeah, ideally you shouldn’t be tacking any characters on, but should have some diversity in characters as you’re devising them in the first place. I’ll just quote what I’ve said on this before…

I’d generally go with determining this on a character-by-character basis, so you might have one character who goes for male MCs only, and one who goes for male and nb MCs but not female ones, etc. That way it just ends up being a matter of personal orientation… everyone’s different!

Yeah :sweat_smile: One thing that can make NPCs seem more playersexual is if they have an ex mentioned, or express attraction at some point, but it’ll flip so that their ex’s gender will match the MC’s, or they’ll express attraction to the MC’s gender only, and suchlike. I really wouldn’t advocate this… I find it erase-y.

@ParrotWatcher’s covered the point quite well (thanks! :blush:) so just to corroborate… there’s a difference between representation percentages in NPCs as a whole and percentages in romance options specifically. For characters who aren’t ROs, representation is still useful, but it doesn’t impact the player’s experience in quite as direct a way, and I certainly wouldn’t object to you going for the 20% there—that still means I get some representation, and could fit well :slight_smile: (and that’s the sort of thing that can work well in linear fiction, too.)

Romance options are different, because it specifically means that you would be creating a game that is less fun for gay players. Indeed, I can flat out say that I would not buy a game that features four ROs for hetero men and only one for a gay man. It’s just not fair to write a game that provides a worse experience for gay people. We already have real life for that.

You also mention you’re looking at the '20s LGBT scene, which does mean you have perfect reason to incorporate characters whose demographics aren’t identical to those of society as a whole anyway. (And, good on you for looking into that—there was a lot more going on than most people realize :smile:)

(Also, agreed on the issue numbers being difficult to report… it seems the more homophobia and heteronormativity are present, the smaller self-reported LGBT numbers will be… so it’s pretty well impossible to tell what the numbers would look like in a society without homophobia or heteronormativity, sadly :disappointed_relieved:)

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The problem with that is that often something unintentional sneaks in. Do all the one for who it ‘makes sense’
normally go for women?

You are now saying that enbies are essentially women. And/OR are implying that they present feminine (which there are no way that they does.)

Do they normally go for men? Well, now you are saying the opposite. Do you try to mix it so there is one ‘straight’ and one ‘same-gender’ attracted? Now you might have one gender over represented in who the enby can go for. Remember non-binary persons have sexualities too. Not all are bi (though, I am.).

Is bi-characters the only one who are open to enbies? If so, do they suddenly have a lot less options than everybody else. Is there bi-characters who are not into enbies and if so how do you as a writer explain that?

Why would the normally lesbian identifying woman be okay with the masculine presenting demiboy?

I could continue with question like that because the truth of the matter it that there are countless different genders and they all crosses with gender representations.

In real life you can have this long intimate discussions with your prospective partner about what this means, how comfortable you are with it and what it means for both of you. You can’t really have those discussion in game.

There are no good way to do this because “Non-binary” covers a HUGE range of different gender and by having it decided by what makes sense for the characters you as a writer are essentially making a lot of unstated assumptions about the gender and gender representations of the “Non-binary” player.

Personally i have a love hate relationship with this idea. On one hand I love how it gives the character well… character like, especially (gonna use Dragon Age Inquisition as an example) since it gives you a chance if you want to give more personal story with the character, like in Dorians route.
But on the other hand I like having my options wide open.
I guess it comes down to… balance? like you can’t have 3 straight characters and one queer character cause that’s just not fair on the player. I mean you could but like… yea wouldn’t be fair y’know?

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Honestly, that would lead to saying “no gay ROs,” which is not a conclusion I would be okay with. That’s an important side of representation too.

I specifically suggested “one character who goes for male MCs only, and one who goes for male and nb MCs but not female ones” as an example because that would mean that you’re not always lumping nonbinary people into the same category. One would need to do the same check for different gender combinations. The guideline about everyone having multiple ROs would still apply; one would still need to check to make sure there is balance across the board This is something that could only work if you have a large cast of ROs available. If you only have a few, then yeah, gender restricting them is not a good idea. But if you do, and can balance them, being able to have gay representation among romance options is important and valid.

I do agree that it is valuable to examine and check the pitfalls that you raised, certainly.

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I think locking out romance paths that bases on MC’s gender is totally fine. There are some CoGs WIP already did this. Actually, it makes me feel the game is more customerised. There’re some games with content that is similar for all kind of MC’s genders make customization lose its meaning.

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I did not want to go into your specific example, because I did know the whole size of your cast, but let’s go with… DA:I. The original six (discounting the two who was made in the extra year) was a

a pan man
a bi woman
a straight guy
a straight woman
a lesbian
and a gay man

Now everyone who are not bi has two option. On that we agree. Now we imagine that you actually could play as Non-Binary. What are you option then.

bi and or pan enbies has two that’s fair, but what about enbies who are exclusively attracted to women or men? They have one that’s not fair.

So you look at it and say okay. We need more option, so to take your example you pick the gay guy and the straight woman to open them up to enbies. That’s great now non binary players have to option of either gender, but you are also now saying that the non-binary player essentially is a man. You might not mean to, but that is the assumption underlying it.

So you look away from that and decide to make the gay guy and the straight guy open. Great now you are not making assumption about the player’s gender, but the non-binary player who are exclusively attracted to women are still stuck to one, while the non-binary player who are exclusively attracted to guys have three.

so you take a new stance and say, okay the lesbian and the gay are open to non-binaries. That’s great option wise, but you’ve now meddled with two LGBT+ members identity and it raises the question of what they are now.

So you decide to go for the straights and open them up to non-binary mcs instead. Which with only six options are problem the best you can do if for no other reasons than the fact than the fact that nothing much is lost by having no one strictly straight.

But no matter which one of the last two you choose, you are still making pressumptions about the player. If a man identifies as straight and is still into me, does that mean that he sees me as a woman? I know it happens in real life, but in real life we can also have all those conversation about what this means for us, in game and I can ascertain that he does not in fact sees me as a woman, you can’t do that in game.

Or does he openly identifies as bi - and how are you going to handle that with regard to gay players. Because they will notice - and you will be accused of having ‘discount’ bi in the game even if it is unfair. (which it is.)

The only way around that is to have four people on bi-pan spectrum, but two extra RO are a huge undertaking.

The fewest writers are not capable of having sos:the mortail coils incredible number of options. And it is not because I don’t understands the desire to have same sex representation and I sympathize somewhat. But I want people to stop treating ‘Non-binary’ as one gender, because it is not and if someone decide to orientation lock, I want them to be aware of that.

Edit. Because I forgot. In my example above there there is still one player who has zero options and that is the enby who are solely attracted to others outside the spectrum. Which, yeah, be aware of that too.

What would you think of, for CS games at least, adding an option so nonbinary MCs can choose how they present, if they wish: feminine, masculine, androgynous, other, none of the above? Or would that just maybe lead to more possible issues? (Especially since it could potentially be outside the realm of the writer’s experience as well.) I realise one can never list everything, but perhaps that might at least be a start—the writer could code more sensitively with regard to nonbinary MCs and fixed-orientation NPCs.

But aye, I definitely agree with you—it’s not a simple matter, and a lot of nuance can be explored in real life that’s necessarily passed over in most games or books.

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As long as it is done sensitively (so as to avoid the ‘but what are you really’ question) I think it’s a good idea. As you said no one can ever present all the options. Not even I. And it at least mean that it is easier for the player to tell the game what kind of options, they do want.

There are still a lot of way in which it could go wrong, but it is certainly better than nothing and give the player more control over how they are seen which I am always in favour off…

Also I know I sound uncompromising here, but that’s because we are discussing the subject. Generally, I hope that I don’t go into people wips and demand the unreasonable. If I do I am sorry, but since we are strictly discussing sexualities and NPCs I just think this is an important aspect.

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Personally, I think stories are better for gender-locked romances. It makes characters less ‘hollow’. While I do understand that some characters can ‘prefer’ one gender but be willing to have an open mind, I do think its best for -at least a few- characters to have their own desires and personalities. It makes them more realistic and believable. I would rather have my PC be denied by a romance, than have that same character jump on the PC without issues, throwing away any romantic character they might so that the PC can have their way.

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Absolutely it is, and I’d love to see nonbinary MCs better acknowledged as nonbinary in the game world (and nonbinary existence in general by having more nonbinary NPCs, but that’s another story…). And I don’t think you sound uncompromising at all.

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I think it depends on how many LIs you can reasonably fit into the story. If there’s only one, then that character must by necessity be gender-variable and able to be romanced by any MC. If you have lots, then you can have more freedom to have a variety of genders and sexualties, but of course might run the risk of having more characters than the plot can really support.

I find the argument that there should only be a small proportion of LGBT characters in a story because they are only a small proportion of the general population and that to have it otherwise would be ‘unrealistic’, to be something of a fallacy. Statistically that would be assuming an even distribution, while the truth is it’s a clustered distribution (LGBT people tend to have LGBT friends).

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Are there existing examples of games that try to appeal to as wide an audience as possible within the Virtual Novel market?

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Speaking for myself, I have always been with the school of thought that says… if you want a relationship with a person (or an NPC) then you have to work for it because it takes work to establish a relationship, then a continual effort to maintain it. Not only that, but the person you are trying to establish a relationship with has to be open to you doing so. If they aren’t, then congratulations you’re a stalker. :wink:

Joking aside, I would love to see an interactive novel where if you pursue an NPC repeatedly after being warned not to, there would be severe consequences like the NPC pressing harassment or related charges on the MC, and the MC possibly having to do jail time or community service, which may, in turn, lead to the MC obsessing over the NPC (which would, if not carefully managed, lead to even darker scenarios).

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sticks head in
I can’t believe I forgot SOS:The mortal coil, how the writer did the sexuality of the characters is a great kind of compromise I guess though to do it that way you’d also need to include the same kind of in depth gender/body options too
rolls out

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But no matter how interesting any one character is, they won’t be loved by everyone. A gay character may have a far more interesting and complex personality and motivations than any of the straight characters, but if he’s an obnoxious jerk then I’m not going to be interested. And if he’s the only gay or bi guy, then I’m out of options.

I don’t know that game; how is it done there? :confused:

Is it similar to how it’s handled in the WiP Freak: Amidst the Neon Lights, where the ROs all have their own preferences, but are still available to be romanced by anyone?

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