Romanceable NPCs with one another?

That was kind of my point though. It’s not that the MC isn’t needed or wanted, just simply that it is possible for that RO to live a happy life with more than one possible person, like it is for some MC’s is all. Some people are compatible with multiple types of people is all, so it’s never “first or second choice”. It’s more of “This MC came along and I developed deep feelings and fell in love with them.” and if that route isn’t chosen it’s, “No one came along before I developed/realized my feelings for other RO.” It’s kind of just life progression or an AU.

Again, just wanna preface this by saying I respect your feelings towards this and you’re not wrong for feeling them, I’m just trying to get across the way I think a lot of writers intend it to be, which is just people/characters living different circumstances with different people/characters is all :slight_smile:

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Thanks for that. It seems to be a rare thing to actually respect a different POV, sometimes. :slight_smile:

And that’s fine, that’s the author’s prerogative. I’m just saying that, given that some people feel strongly against this, it would be nice to have some warning. We may miss out on some good games that way, but at least we have the choice to avoid this if we vehemently dislike it.

Edit:

@Jbento

From your POV. Not from mine.

Not sure I understand this, because I didn’t get that feeling from the game. Again, it’s about perspective. Just because yours differs from mine doesn’t make yours wrong–you can’t help it if you feel like shit playing SSW1–but it doesn’t make mine wrong, either. Just like my perspective that the MC is second or third choice when the author has a preferred pairing in mind isn’t wrong just because you feel the opposite way.

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I absolutely love to see romances get with someone else if I choose not to romance them. Just because I’m not with them doesn’t mean they don’t deserve to be happy with someone.

I’ve had this arguement with people over this very topic. I wish you better luck than I had.

Also this, which is why I hate its one of few examples of ros being together with or without the MC involved.

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I don’t mean to sound rude, if there is a nicer way of saying this it eludes me.

I believe this is simply incorrect though becaue the MC’s existence doesnt make the other ros any less compatible. The fact they choose the MC over any other option shows plainly their choice to pick the MC over the other ro thus meaning they value the MC more.

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I totally agree with you! I do sense that same feeling of ownership towards characters some readers have.

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I honestly don’t understand how this is a matter of POV. Both NPCs exist regardless of whether you’re romancing them in the playthrough. If they wanted to get together with each other more than they do with the MC, they… would? Apparently, that’s literally what’s going to happen in A Tale of Heroes between Ignis and Seeker, if I understood correctly.

Oh, it’s definitely not about perspective here. SSW1’s ending (well, the ending that isn’t a bad end, at any rate) is literally about how the MC is a useless piece of crap that will only be of any worth if they surrender (at least) part of their identity to a parasitical stone.

I should’ve perhaps used a different expression, because “piece of shit” can be used in two different ways. It’s not that the SSW MC is a bad person (which is one use), is that the game repeatedly hammers the point (by, for example, only letting you get a non-bad end this way) if the MC admits they have no worth (which is the other use) and actually sacrifice what makes them them to the parasitical stone.

Right? The other RO is AVAILABLE. Unless the MC is actively sabotaging their relationship (which is a whole 'nother can of worms, and it made me feel skeevy just typing that), that an RO gets together with the MC instead of with another RO means the MC is their favourite. Otherwise, well, they’d just get together with the other RO.

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You might want to take a look back at some of what you’ve been writing about readers and authors with a different POV in that light. I get that you feel strongly on this, but it’s led you into disrespect for others’ perspectives.

I get how you interpret these situations in games – you’ve explained it well. While I’ve been writing this post, DivineMarauder and JBento have both written new posts that outright deny the validity of your perspective. I disagree with them. Your way of reading isn’t mine, but it’s an understandable one.

Can you really not see how an author might conceive of their work differently, though? e.g. how one might legitimately feel that it’s weird for NPCs to end up celibate for life if the MC doesn’t get together with them? Or how an author might not feel that whenever the MC chooses inaction, the resulting path must be read as canon? Those ways of reading seem pretty clear to me – as clear as your perspective.

Choices have consequences. Again, I get that you’d like to be warned if certain consequences you don’t like (NPC-on-NPC bonking) are included in a game. Maybe you prefer games where unintended or unforeseen consequences almost never follow from player choice, to enjoy a higher degree of control or story centralization on the MC? That’s fine, and I don’t think anyone should be trying to argue you out of that perspective. But that’s not the definition of IF/choice games. It’s one partcular way of writing them.

Talking as if authors lack decency if it hasn’t occurred to them that this might bug some of their readers is no way to get them to do anything. I’m happy to add warnings for things that are likely to trigger trauma, but I literally can not add warnings for every creative choice that might seriously annoy some reader. Ask for a refund, leave a one star review, blast it on Tumblr; that’s your prerogative as a reader. But I’m sorry: no reader is entitled to a warning in advance for every trope, twist, or event that might upset them.

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Thank you. You said it better and more polite than I ever could have.

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Um, no, they wouldn’t. Because it’s a game and the author is giving them as a RO. I mean, unless the author just wants to torture the MC or ruin the player’s experience. Since that’s kind of the point of offering a RO? Instead–again, this is to me–it seems like the author is making the MC an intruder on an otherwise perfect relationship. Others have said the same.

And I don’t see the point in beating this dead horse. This is how I see it and you aren’t going to change my mind. Just as I’m not going to change yours.

For SSW1, I think the point of that game is that the MC is a bumpkin who has no talent and is on the run. It’s not about being a worthless piece of shit, it’s about becoming something more. As for the soul stone… while I agree that it sucks that the MC can either accept the stone or die, the name of the game literally includes the soul stone, so I figure it’s kind of a given and I just have to suspend disbelief (kinda like in ME3 where you could either accept one of the shitty options from the overpowered god-child in the machine or Shepard dies). And I found ME3 far less palatable.

I can see it, and I agree with it to a point. The thing is, I don’t need to read about their love lives in a game where I’m RPing the MC. The other ROs’ romances aren’t interesting to me as a reader and, as a player, they pretty much negate my desire to play their routes and, sometimes, the game as a whole.

I also get that an author might not “feel” they are writing canon when they have ROs hook up with each other if the MC doesn’t choose them, but my point is that, despite their intentions, it seems like they mean it to be canon. And interpretation when reading often is more–I won’t say real, but is stronger–than intent. Therein lies the problem.

An example… I flat out asked one of the writers of Andromeda 6 about this–if your MC romances someone other than Damon, he ends up with his childhood best friend. The two of them are clearly close, even on his route, to the point where the MC sometimes feels like an intruder, and it left me feeling squicky about playing his route because I felt like my MC was screwing up the writer’s canon of Damon + Alisa = true love. Almost quit the game entirely but decided to ask, and was told that was not the intention. I gave it another go and still, despite her clear comments about it not being canon, feel like my MC is in the way. So I ditched that MC and made one each for Cal and Vexx, because they’re pretty damned cool, anyway. But I won’t play Damon’s route, no matter how awesome the character is because the way it’s written makes it seem that Damon and Alisa are canon.

Not sure if you understand what I’m saying there or not? I mean, I get what you’re saying about an author perceiving things differently than I (and others) interpret them, and it’s a valid point (I’ve always argued it’s difficult to know what authors long dead meant by their writings and, if you can justify your interpretation with the given text, it should be a valid interpretation, but I’d argue with a brick wall, lol). But perception often differs from intent, and it’s shaped by our own experiences and thought processes.

I guess it boils down to this for me: if the text reflects something as happening a certain way (i.e., ROs with another RO) when there is not an outside force (i.e., the MC) to interfere with it, I take that as canon. The author may not intend it that way, but unless there is something in text to dispute it, that’s my perception of the situation.

There are always intended consequences. And they should follow from player choice, but typically those choices are story-related, are they not? Like… the MC decides to stab an attacker, but that attacker was crucial to delivering some needed object for the MC to succeed. That’s an understandable consequence that has a crap end.

But NPC romances? They aren’t crucial to the plot (if they are, then okay, I can probably get onboard!) and are just something thrown in for supposed depth (I don’t see it). I get that authors may love them. I get that some readers/players may love them. I don’t and they can ruin a game for me, leaving me with no desire to play any of it. It’s as simple as that.

You are correct and it was poorly worded. So I apologize for my wording of it. I simply meant that it would be nice (and courteous, for that matter), if authors would stick a warning up if the ROs are going to run off with other NPCs. And, along the same line, let us know which ones will do it so we can either avoid those or avoid the game, if it causes us not to enjoy a game.

But, as you said, you owe us nothing. No warning, no head’s up, nothing. Would it be nice to get that? Sure. But it’d be nice to win the lottery, too, and that’s highly unlikely.

So if an author chooses to warn people of such things, it would be appreciated. If not, then people like me would be better off just not buying games until we know what the deal is. Play the WIP and wait to see if others bitch about such things before shucking out our hard-earned money for something we won’t enjoy.

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Ok, my point in this isn’t “your take is bad and you should feel bad”, is that I literally don’t understand how you reach this position in the first place.

Lessay a game has ROs A, B, and C, and if you romance A then B and C get together. If you romance B, then they don’t get together (because they get together with you instead). This means that if you’re in their romance path, B is actually picking between you and C (I mean, they’re not, because they’re lines of code and not real people, but you know what I mean) and they pick you. This is the literal meaning of the MC being “the first choice”. They’re chosen first. I’m not seeing how this can in any way make you feel like a second choice, because it’s the literal definition of being the first choice. You might as well be telling me “this square has exactly three sides.” That’s not how squares work.

EDIT: I can understand that, should a situation like the one @DivineMaurader describes in the post below arise, that might put you off. That’s not my stance, but sure. What I don’t understand is how you reach the “this makes me a second choice” conclusion.

I literally mention Ignis and Seeker on post #90, so if things go sideways you can always blame me for pulling you into it. :smile: Say it came up when you googled their names or something. I’ll take that bullet for you in exchange for more Aki! :heart:

No, see, it’s not “WHAT the situation” but “WHY the situation”. You are uncomfortable feeling like a second choice, which is eminently fair and would make me uncomfortable too, I just don’t understand WHY the situation makes you feel like a second choice, because you’re literally being picked first, which is… not how second choices work?

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Funnily enough, ME3 is what introduced me to the concept of one ro falling for another. Tali is my main ro, but while I decideded to explore other RO’s though I say the scene with Garrus and Tali together and I practically started bouncing in excitement because that was my Main Shephard’s best friends and woman. Seeing them happy together made me feel good cause Tali still got to feel love and at that point so did Garrus because at the end of the day, atleast to me, those weren’t just ro’s to be offered to the player (honestly makes them sound more like objects than even characters in story) as you say but rather those were 2 people who I liked to see happy.

Is it that different of a situation? If you romance Garrus or Tali then their romance doesnt happen but if you romance anyone but those 2 then they get together

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So, um… Am I welcome in this thread here? Because, uh…


I’ve kind of kept my thoughts on the topic private, since I don’t feel I’m the best person to talk about this, but the thread keeps appearing at the top of my list, so here goes…

I don’t really have an issue with ROs having more agency in terms of who they go for. I understand the issues of jealousy, or of feeling that the author is forcing their “OTP” into the game, but it’s not really something I feel myself.

It’s a matter of it being written well, obviously, nothing is going to be well-received if it’s poorly written, but…

Someone actually brought up Tali and Garrus from Mass Effect up above, so I’m gonna more or less run with that to explain my thoughts.

So, these are two team members that I’d grown to care for and like as I went through the trilogy. They were both romanceable (though as a Male!Shep I didn’t get Garrus, but I digress), and at least one of them makes their attraction to the MC obvious. I wasn’t interested in it, I saw Garrus as my bro who’d shoot his way out of hell with me, and Tali was always more of that little sister that I always wanted to protect.

And then the end of ME3 hits, and I see these two, who I have spent years in-game getting to know and learning to trust, end up finding safety or comfort in each other’s arms.

And, you know… it worked. For me, at least. It added some emotional drama to both characters, and made them feel a lot more organic, at least imo. They felt a lot more like actual characters, people who had lives apart from Shepard.

It helped invest me into the Normandy’s crew even more, and I think that’s part of the goal, or at least should be imo, in writing these situations. These characters are alive, and they’re part of a grander world that doesn’t revolve around my MC. Giving them an ability to gain romantic happiness separately from the MC, or at least some level of proactivity in terms of their own romantic interests, makes these NPCs feel like they’re less part of a narrative, and more a group that’s going through it with me.

… And that’s kind of what I want from these games, honestly. A crew to experience the craziness of the world (or universe, in some cases!) with.

Aha, so you have! I seem to have skimmed over that particular section. I’ll hold you to that though, I’ll plead the “Blame JBento” if there’s a need for it. :stuck_out_tongue:

And, btw, yeah, you’re correct in terms of what’s gonna happen between Ignis and Seeker eventually. Not the topic, but I wanted to avoid any confusion.

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You make an extremely good point. That said, I’m not sure I completely agree.

The goal of any writing in a commercial capacity is to resonate with the audience, good, bad or otherwise. Having the audience feel negative emotions isn’t inherently a bad thing.

There are writers out there who will deliberately mess with the audience and/or call them out in their works. There are writers who set out to make the readers feel as horrible and as miserable as possible. There are successful writers who’ve built their reputation on it.

That’s not automatically a bad thing to avoid at all costs, it’s just that it’s important to know what the audience will and will not accept.

The issue only comes when the audience rejects the writer’s work en masse; when there’s an overwhelming dissonance between what the writer considers a good story and what the audience considers a good story.

I come from a writing background where my writing lives and dies on how well it resonates with the audience; it doesn’t matter if I think something is a good idea if the audience doesn’t agree with me. In those cases, I didn’t do my job correctly.

I’m not writing for me, I’m writing for my audience. I have to know what my audience will accept and what they won’t if I want to be a successful writer in my field.

That’s why my opinion of ROs romancing other ROs is the way it is: I’ve seen enough over the years to convince me that ROs romancing other ROs would be a feature that would only cost me a potential audience instead of gaining one. And in a niche field like Interactive Fiction, I personally view it a risk that far outweighs the rewards.

That said, I do not speak for other writers, epecially those in fields different from my own.

My writing discipline isn’t the same as novel writing or interactive fiction, so I’m not going to sit here and claim that my experience trumps that of other writers, and that everyone must listen to me; that would be the hight of arrogance.

I’m saying that if I were to ever write a CoG/HG story, the ROs wouldn’t romance each other. At most, I would have them reject each other’s advances.

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Okay, I’ll try to use this scenario and try to explain it.

If my MC romances B first (or only B), then yes, the MC is first choice. To me, the reader, I can get behind that. Until I decide I also want to read A’s path and create another MC for them. So let’s go through playthrough 2…

MC2 starts romancing A. Everything is going great, I’m enjoying the read (despite whatever inevitable angsty BS they’re going through). Only now B and C are in love. That’s when I, the reader, stop and cringe. Why? Because it seems MC1’s presence somehow stopped B and C from getting together in my first run of the game. Why? Well, clearly the author intended for B and C to be together (which may be an incorrect assumption, but I’ll get to what leads me to that in a minute). If MC1 isn’t around to ruin B and C’s love, then everything would be great! And now the game is no longer fun because my MC screwed up what the author wanted to happen.

So let’s say I actually do another run of MC1 with B (I wouldn’t, but let’s pretend). The only thing going through my head, as a reader and a player, is that I’ve somehow screwed up the intended story. After all, the author–aka the DM–went through the trouble of writing an entire romance story about B and C being together and being happy. Why do that unless they wanted B with C, and it wasn’t until my MC somehow got in the way that the intended romance didn’t happen?

I don’t see it as MC1 being the first choice, despite the fact that, when I play B’s route again, the MC ends up with them. I see it, instead, as B and C were the preferred pairing if MC1 hadn’t gotten in their way. Why? Because that’s what the author wrote. They don’t have to come right out and say “your MC sucks and I don’t want them with this RO” because they are showing me, through the game itself, that B and C are together–had my MC not been in their way.

If you want to go with the thought that, well if they were going to get together, they would have, I don’t see that either since, in 99% of the romances in these games are literally the MC chasing the LI and not the other way around. Oh, the LI may flirt back, and may even start the flirting, but the MC is the one chasing the LI almost every single time.

So if my MC1 hadn’t been such a huge douchebag and hit on B, then B could be with C and be happy (and probably have a lot less angst since romances for the MCs in this game are often angst-riddled nightmares, whereas the RO on RO romances are shown to be perfect and happy). So how could I, as a reader, not interpret the MC being the lesser/second/worst option for the RO?

Does that help you understand where I’m coming from now?

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I mean, it did.

Because the MC is B’s first choice. That’s why B gets together with MC if the MC is available to them, and only gets together with someone else if the MC is unavailable. That’s what being a first choice IS.

There’s definitely a reason for this, and that reason would DEFINITELY merit either a trigger warning or a toggle choice at the beginning of the game. Some people are VERY uncomfortable about being pursued, to the possible point of triggering PTSD. I mean, I’m definitely cool with it (it’s part of the reason why I’m a Morgan boy in Wayhaven, where the pursuing is undisguisedly mutual, and the bush isn’t merely not being beaten around but actually nuked from orbit), but it can hit some people in VERY bad places.

Unless B and C are already together at this point, there’s absolutely no douchebaggery involved. You’re merely stating to B that you’re an available option, which is a necessary step for B to make the choice in the first place.

Unfortunately, no. :pensive:

Do eeeeeeeet! There might be a queue, though. “Blame JBento” is a common activity. “Judas” is actually a mistranslation of JBento in the bible (note the same starting letter), and I hadn’t even been born yet.

cheers for the happy couple :partying_face: Aki’s definitely and by far best girl, so what Ignis and Seeker get up to consensually is up to them.

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You sure about that? Because this thread seems to be making it abundantly clear that there are a lot of people who do appreciate it being present.
Pretty sure you’ll find plenty of audience either way—and alienate some people either way, but that’s writing in general.

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Yes, I am.

This thread is only representative of the people who go to the forums and choose to respond. It is not representative of all readers.

Also yes.

But just because I don’t believe it’s worth it doesn’t mean others don’t or shouldn’t believe differently.

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As someone who’s in the camp of “unromanced-RO-on-unromanced-RO action is a full narrative positive with no downsides”, I have to point out that while its presence makes the game better for me, I can’t see myself not buying or enjoying a game because it isn’t there. I’d just enjoy it MORE if it was.

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From an author’s POV that’s not true. I try to write characters first, and ROs second. I’ve changed non Romancable characters into ROs on occasion if asked for it and I can make it work, but that doesn’t negate that this character likely already had a planned arc which may play out differently if they don’t become the MC’s primary love interest. Personalities and character arcs and the opportunity for them to act independently of the MC to me personally often makes NPCs interesting.

No one’s trying to torture or ruin the player’s experience here! That’s not how you get people to like reading your work! It’s just not all NPCs are going to be written as completely player-centric by all authors all the time.

This kind of comes down to a different people like different things. One is not right or wrong to do in the scheme of things. They’re being written as characters from the mind of an author. It’s never a personal attack or rejection. Please don’t interpret it that way.

This becomes hard. At the start of a game it could become a list of spoilers for anything people may not like in a game. IE: If you don’t do XYZ, NPC A might not get together with you and go with NPC B. If you don’t get X stay above 80 and be at Y location, you won’t be able to save NPC C therefore they can’t be a RO etc.

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I will say, that I am agreeing with all the things you are saying here and of course, we can’t force the authors to make warnings on all things.
But how about phrasing it is like this, this story contains: NPS romancing NPS?
Like this, so authors don’t have to spoiled the story. :person_tipping_hand:

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