October 2023's Writer Support Thread

[Dash]

A big part of game length, without meaning to sound mercenary (just a realist) is money. Yes, I do write for pleasure, but it’s also a profession: releasing a computer game, polishing it, editing it, balancing the stats, that’s all a job. Going through edits and beta testing, that’s a job.

$5000 for a 100,000-word game works out at 5 cents a word. So, realistically, with a game being 200,000-words to even be considered worth someone’s time (again, 200,000 words is the first three Harry Potter books combined)… the writer is being paid 2.5 cents a word. Go up to 500,000 words, and it’s 1 cent a word.

The average rate for a magazine feature etc is about 75 cents a word.

So there’s a pure survival aspect to this. The writers cannot afford to live on the games. They can’t spend as much time as they want creating huge games, which take hours upon hours to write, because it takes time, it takes effort, and the bigger the game, the smaller the pay (and the longer it takes the game to come out, so the longer the turnaround etc.) And while some writers have huge patreon followings etc, the vast majority do not.

The other aspect is that you’re given milestones on when different parts of the game are due. And, as mentioned, when it’s not enough to live on, you have to do it in your spare time - evenings, weekends etc. I don’t think it’s possible for me, given a full-time job and a life, to produce 100,000 words of quality that I’d be willing to share every single month. 3500 words a day, every day, no matter if you’re happy or sad or ill or it’s your birthday or your friend’s in trouble or you just want to chill out and relax. Even touch-typing, that’s at least an hour a day. And that’s before you get to coming up with concepts, descriptions, coding, debugging, editing, proofing…

As I said, there are some amazing authors who have fan backing and the time, patience and work/life balance to deliver that. But there’s a real-world element too if you want to do this as a job, rather than as a past-time.

[Nocturnal_Stillness]

So finally rewrote the first chapter of Daemonglass its currently just passed 20,000 words. Now just need to add three more ends of the chapter as part of the rewrite to follow through on my initial idea of having a choice of one of four primary daemons alongside the four escaped secondary daemons. With players having to catch five in total by the end of the game.

I intend to devote November to writing the first chapter of A Familiar Magic and then posted both chapter ones in December for people to vote on.

All goes to plan it will mean I will start working on the winning game in January.

[Havenstone]

Notes on a couple of recent topics:

@Dash

I am not flattered or grateful that someone thinks two years of my life - my creativity, and my passion, and just the amount of effort it takes to make something - is literally worthless. Worse than worthless.

For what it’s worth-- and I recognize it may not be worth much-- they probably don’t actually, consciously think that. They’re acting as if they do, which is shitty and wrong, no question. But just like many of us buy cheap clothes despite “not believing in sweatshops,” (because the person who suffers for our convenience isn’t present to us and the consequences aren’t in our faces) most of the people involved in piracy aren’t making a conscious choice to disparage or hurt us authors.

They’re just being selfish and thoughtless. They’re justifying their decisions by looking at themselves and what they want/can afford, while assuming that others will pony up enough one way or another to keep the authors fed and their free entertainment coming.

It can be hard not to take it personally, when you’re trying/hoping to make an actual living off it and every sale counts. But it isn’t meant personally…and I’ve found that fact makes it a little easier (in my own case) to keep the inevitability of selfish theft from hitting my emotional wellbeing too hard.

@Phenrex

lets say for example that in one case an author has variables for pronouns and in the other the author copy/pastes then changes the specific pronoun relevant words.

For those who aren’t going to read through all the threads I just linked to, it’s worth noting that this hypothetical problem applies only to HGs. CoGs and HC games are edited for (among other things) a pretty high degree of code efficiency; there would never be a case where a cut-and-paste job like you’re imagining would make it past the editors. And for HGs, in general, the caveat emptor principle applies…no method of calculating word count is going to be a guarantee of quality.

If a HG author used cut and paste so liberally that it made a category difference, e.g. they made a 500k word game that felt like a 300k one – which, let’s be clear, would be pretty hard to do! sloppy coding doesn’t boost the word count that quickly – it would show up in the reviews and word of mouth, which (along with the free demo) is the main quality indicator you should trust when it comes to these games anyway.

Magikiras and Tin Star both have a fair amount of cut and paste, in large part because the main CS tools for coding efficiency like gosub and multireplace hadn’t yet been rolled out when they were written. But Tin Star is still bona fide enormous, and awesome, and the abiding fan love for it is a trustworthy indicator of its quality – even if (were it written today) its word count might drop by a couple hundred thousand. (Can’t speak for Magikiras, haven’t played it.)

Different ways of slicing the word count would reveal different angles – but there’s no way that couldn’t theoretically be gamed, and no particular sign that authors are gaming the current system (the huge HGs that people have loved in the past year are genuinely huge) so I’m not sure this is a problem crying out for a solution.

@LiliArch

Any idea how I could make sure the reader, seeing the book starting with “Part One”, doesn’t drop the book thinking it’s a series, if (when) I go with that kind of a structure?

I assume you’re already using “Chapter” for subsections within each “Part”? If so, you could look for an alternative to “Part” – “Act,” or “Movement,” or something else that relates to the theme of your game. Or give the parts their own names, rather than a subdivision category label: like “I. Exciting Title Here,” hovering over the first chapter title, and “II. Thrilling Heading Here,” when you get to part two.

Ultimately I don’t think you’ll have too many people misunderstanding.

[izzily]

I just bonked kinda hard into the realisation that my first chapter wasn’t going to work.

I think I can reshuffle it, but quite a lot is gonna end up on the cutting room floor.

I’m a little bummed and kinda torn, it feels like undoing a lot of progress. But I think it’s the right call. The existing first chapter is just a little too slow and I don’t think it works as an effective hook.

Back in the saddle.

[Dash]

It’s part of the process, I promise. Sometimes you go down those routes. The best thing is realizing it, and also knowing that you can keep the original version. It’s got a great line in it? Use it in the new one. I’ve bastardised so many original drafts and I promise it makes it better.

[Fusion_Ultimatum]

Hey guys! Just a lil question. Do you guys plan where and how much you put the personality stat increases or do you just post them at random? I added them randomly under a choice that is similar to that personality, but now I want to make scenarios where your personality affects the story, I have no clue of what number to base it on.

[Niki_Christopherson]

@Eiwynn

I continually check it as I write the game. If my ratio is outside of the expected range, I recalibrate my writing to steer my writing back into it. It becomes part of a testing routine after a bit.

I kinda feel like you make it sound easier than it is? Because I can’t even imagine how I would begin to ‘calibrate’ for that. I’d love to see an example of how you do this in your work. Do you think you could write up instructions on how to do so?

@Eiwynn

this metric can be more predictive of outcomes.

Expecially because I love this. I generally run into outcomes only a little before they come into existance, so… this would be helpful!

@HannahPS

Something I have started doing is using my code and placeholder summaries to gauge roughly how long a chapter will be when written (somewhere between 4 and 5 times the length of the skeleton, usually closer to 4), which also gives me a sense of how long it will take to write.

I DO THIS!

The purple is all *comment summaries for each label, which helps me figure out where everything goes! It’s so useful!

@sana

This is a bit weird, but I feel like I’m mourning a lost story.

It isn’t weird to mourn a lost story. I do it all the time. I have a whole-ass novel that I’ve written, never published, and it’s just… GONE. Because it was saved on a computer that I have no possible way of getting ahold of. It was the first full novel I’ve ever written. So, I know what it’s like to mourn them. Don’t worry. You’re normal.

@LiliArch

Any idea how I could make sure the reader, seeing the book starting with “Part One”, doesn’t drop the book thinking it’s a series, if (when) I go with that kind of a structure?

Maybe a TOC in the stats menu?

@Dash

As I said, there are some amazing authors who have fan backing and the time, patience and work/life balance to deliver that. But there’s a real-world element too if you want to do this as a job, rather than as a past-time.

This is a very, very good point. It’s a problem that writers, comic book artists, and indie-game-devs all have to consider. It’s not easy to make it as a creative. and often, it’s impossible.

@izzily

Back in the saddle.

You got this. It’s worth it, so long as you’re willing to do the work.

@Dash

The best thing is realizing it, and also knowing that you can keep the original version. It’s got a great line in it? Use it in the new one. I’ve bastardised so many original drafts and I promise it makes it better.

This is SO TRUE. I have reused so much from various projects in other projects. I never throw away anything if I can help it.

@Fusion_Ultimatum

. Do you guys plan where and how much you put the personality stat increases or do you just post them at random? I added them randomly under a choice that is similar to that personality, but now I want to make scenarios where your personality affects the story, I have no clue of what number to base it on.

Omg, I have this issue too! Like, I’m pretty much putting them in where they make sense in the narrative, and then guestimating what the checks will be based on, and then going back and rebalancing later. TAT It’s inefficient and I hate it, but it’s the best system I have right now.

---

So I’m paused on writing again, because I have to rebalance the honorific system, which has been driving me nuts since day one. I’m trying to put together something with arrays that will help me, but I have a limited understanding of arrays, so that’s… a bit difficult. It’s hard when Honorifics are so subjective to so many factors, and are almost entirely based off relationships. TAT Ugh. Once I have something workable, I’ll post it up for you guys!

that said, I start my new job tomorrow, and I’m real fucking nervous. Real worried that I’m gonna have less energy to be able to work on this… But I’ll do what I can.

[Eiwynn]

@Niki_Christopherson

I kinda feel like you make it sound easier than it is? Because I can’t even imagine how I would begin to ‘calibrate’ for that. I’d love to see an example of how you do this in your work. Do you think you could write up instructions on how to do so?

To actually check this: Open randomtest in your browser. Change iterations to 1 and leave seed at 0 and tick the first and third option then run it. Randomtest will give the word count at the end.

Next, take the word count and then divide it by total words without code. (As Hannah explained above,this removes code which can skew the results.)

This will give you the ratio seen when the seed is 0.

To further refine this, repeat the process for seeds 1-9.

You can use the average word count per play through and then divide that by total word count, but that does not show where the ratio may be off as well as looking at each individual seed.

Example of my Jam entry.

I run Random test using seed 0. Seed 0 gives me a play through word count of: 12,600 words.

I divide 12,600 words by 28113 total words without code and come up with a ratio of: .448

At this time, my game is showing 45% of its total content, so if I were working towards publication with this, I would examine the seed 0 route taken (checking the third option in random test gives me the text chosen each time) and I would look to add more choices.

This then would help me lessen that ratio and help me make my game more interactive with more choices.

@Niki_Christopherson

Expecially because I love this. I generally run into outcomes only a little before they come into existance, so… this would be helpful!

By examining the ratio given with words without code and going through “trouble-paths” (seeds with abnormal or out-of-range results), I narrow down areas to focus in on with my writing.

I hope this helps everyone.

[Jacic]

@Dash

Thanks to all the people who offered support. But, honestly, I’m beyond depressed right now.

Honestly EVERYONE’S games get cracked on release, even the ones that are free with ads which says something about the people who use these services. Sorry but it’s a given when stuff goes on the app store. I know it sucks, but I’d try not to take it personally. TBH most people pirating probably wouldn’t have bought it anyway. The main thing that annoys me is when people praise the script kiddies for their skill and kindness to crack games.

@Nocturnal_Stillness

I literally spent almost three hours trying to locate an error which I couldn’t replicate and that ended up being caused by a variable that was altered by a mod.

There was an old thread on the published authors section about how to try and detect this. (Not going to talk about it on the open forum.) But yeah, one of mine was broken by someone who admitted not to have even read it before modding the game. They just assumed giving all the in game objects and heaps of money would make it cool.

@Phenrex

I just think that ‘word count’ on it’s own provides you with very incomplete information, which is part of why I feel a little odd about it being customarily included to show the ‘length’ of a game without additional information.

I hate that wordcounts are considered a measure of how good a game will be. It can definitely encourage bloating, inneficient coding and inconsistent pacing because its better not to edit down your projects in that way.word count to playthrough length gives some measure of replayability, but even that can vary depending on the amount of background code being used and efficiency. (I get annoyed with myself sometimes that I don’t just forget being efficient and bloat the code/repeated text to make the games seem long enough that people might consider looking at them.) Even then, a shorter game isn’t bad, just like a long game isn’t automatically good. Its actually harder to pull off a polished long game.

@poison_mara

Sorry for. my bitter sad comments but This forum has killed and burnt all my enjoyment about sharing wips and the whole writing development that should be a great opportunity and experience but for me is forever tainted

I get you mara. For me the answer is to try and write things primarily that I’m happy with for myself if I can. If anyone else enjoys it, that’s a happy bonus.

@Dvalor53

What about doing a compilation then instead?

I’ve actually seriously considered this myself. Reviews are probably still going to fixate on “too short” but it might convince some readers to actually download it and try rather than dismissing out of hand.

@sana

I still have notes about it that I wrote on google docs, but it’s not enough to recreate it. It wouldn’t be the same anyway.

As someone who has lost major amounts of work to computer malfunctions/power surges/accidental overwrites more than once (including back up drives) can I make a suggestion for the future? I try to email myself updated text docs at intervals for recovery just in case. If you had it on dashingdons, you can recover from there as well.

@Fusion_Ultimatum

Do you guys plan where and how much you put the personality stat increases

Depends on the game. If stat checks are really important I sometimes track them very closely. If they’re more lenient or flavour like not as obsessively.

[Eiwynn]

@Fusion_Ultimatum

Hey guys! Just a lil question. Do you guys plan where and how much you put the personality stat increases or do you just post them at random? I added them randomly under a choice that is similar to that personality, but now I want to make scenarios where your personality affects the story, I have no clue of what number to base it on.

I see two “issues” you are grappling with here:

First … a general rule I try to follow is that every choice either builds up a stat-mechanic or tests one. So, as I write, I go down my imaginary checklist and insert a choice that does one of those two things.

Next I will check my ratio of checks and try to balance the stats being tested (ie strength, agility and wisdom are all checked an equal number of times).

The second issue is more of a game design issue. I set out to personally add choices with specific options based on personality, only after the first complete copy of my story is done. I do this for both balance reasons and to make sure the story itself does not end up on relying on something that might be different for each reader.

As far as balancing the stat itself … this is something that is a continuous process, and requires constant tinkering. This tinkering sometimes even continues after publication and can lead to further updates that tweak stat-mechanics.

[Niki_Christopherson]

@Eiwynn

I hope this helps everyone.

ARE YOU KIDDING!? This is AMAZING! Thank you so much!

@Eiwynn

First … a general rule I try to follow is that every choice either builds up a stat-mechanic or tests one. So, as I write, I go down my imaginary checklist and insert a choice that does one of those two things.

This is great to know! I thought that if I put in too many choices that boosted/subtracted from stats, it’d be weird, but if every choice is stupposed to build or check a stat, that makes my job a WHOLE lot easier.

[Jacic]

For my Oct update, I’m still plugging away at mainly at Raishall. It is almost finished (not including editing and bug squishing). I was hoping to have at least the writing done by the end of the month, but we’ll see. I wish I had more free time. Was going so set aside some writing time on Sunday, but was so tired I couldn’t focus so guess have to roll with what is possible.

I wasn’t going to due to trying to stay focused on my todo list, but caved the other week as I haven’t entered for a few years and wrote a very short speed game for Ectocomp. I don’t feel like it’s the best thing I’ve ever written, but I really enjoy writing speed stories/games so just did it. (I do recommend the petit morte category to anyone who feels like trying their hand at flash fictionish stories in game format. The time limit can be motivating as it sets a short end point you have to be done by.)

[HarrisPS]

The stat thing: this is how I do it - I use variables rather than numbers which for my pass and fail thresholds, but you can do exactly the same thing with numbers.

After coding each chapter (and after writing a chapter if I’m feeling extra studious, which I don’t always), I add a file with sets of code and commented out lines to my scene list. The below is an example, using implicit control flow, but you don’t have to use that.

*if hb_ath < hb_ath_lo
	*comment LO ATHLETICS FAIL
*elseif hb_ath < hb_ath_mid
	*comment LO-MID ATHLETICS FAIL
*elseif hb_ath < hb_ath_hi
	*comment MID-HI ATHLETICS SUCCESS
*else
	*comment HI ATHLETICS SUCCESS

I run 10000 RandomTests, generating the randomtest-output file and including line coverage numbers afterwards.

Then I check each *comment line and calculate the percentage of how many times the randomiser lands on the lowest Athletics, middle Athletics, high Athletics, and so on.

I do this for each stat including opposed stats. If the randomiser is mostly not passing a test, or it’s much easier for one stat to be high than another, this method will show it.

If that sounds arduous, it is - it’s very boring. But I find it less boring and time-consuming than wading through a chapter to check how many times something is increased or decreased, and it helped me balance much better and more consciously with a sense of the big picture (for example making Royal Affairs easier in general than Creme de la Creme).

[Havenstone]

@Niki_Christopherson

if every choice is stupposed to build or check a stat, that makes my job a WHOLE lot easier.

Then that’s definitely how you should write. For my part, if I had to contort all my choices to test or build stats, it would make me crazy. The freedom to have choices with no effect on stats is something I’m grateful for. But we all write in different ways – and there are plenty of readers who get annoyed at choices that don’t affect stats, so Eiwynn’s rule is a good one to satisfy them, too.

[Eiwynn]

@Havenstone

[W]e all write in different ways

This is essential to grasp and to understand.

One of the main purposes of this monthly thread is to support every writer, no matter their particulars.

I include stats with my non-stat mechanics in that rule, so it isn’t as restricted as testing/building stats alone sounds on the face of it.

For example: choosing an armor kit to use for the rest of the story is an example of “building up” the MC/protagonist. Even though this particular choice does not touch an actual stat directly.

[RockmanX]

@Eiwynn

First … a general rule I try to follow is that every choice either builds up a stat-mechanic or tests one. So, as I write, I go down my imaginary checklist and insert a choice that does one of those two things.

Next I will check my ratio of checks and try to balance the stats being tested (ie strength, agility and wisdom are all checked an equal number of times).

For example: choosing an armor kit to use for the rest of the story is an example of “building up” the MC/protagonist. Even though this particular choice does not touch an actual stat directly.

@HannahPS

The stat thing: this is how I do it - I use variables rather than numbers which for my pass and fail thresholds, but you can do exactly the same thing with numbers.

@Havenstone

The freedom to have choices with no effect on stats is something I’m grateful for. But we all write in different ways – and there are plenty of readers who get annoyed at choices that don’t affect stats, so Eiwynn’s rule is a good one to satisfy them, too.

For my case, it does. I track armor upgrades. For example, the Poise Armor Head upgrade allows you to reduce weapon energy consumption from Special Weapons. There are many more such upgrades.

Moreover, I don’t have this hard and fast rule of ‘always build up a stat or test it’. There is dialogue. There are items to be collected.

The variable (high/mid/low) will be helpful for the stat checks and the Life/Weapon/Romance Energy Capsules. Also, a big part of the Maverick Hunter series is about damage data charts. How much damage each weapon does- different weapons yield different damage to different things.

[Niki_Christopherson]

@HannahPS

If that sounds arduous, it is - it’s very boring. But I find it less boring and time-consuming than wading through a chapter to check how many times something is increased or decreased, and it helped me balance much better and more consciously with a sense of the big picture (for example making Royal Affairs easier in general than Creme de la Creme)

Arduous or not, thank you for sharing it! This method seems VERY useful for the kinds of trouble I’m anticipating with balancing my game.

@Eiwynn

choosing an armor kit to use for the rest of the story is an example of “building up” the MC/protagonist. Even though this particular choice does not touch an actual stat directly.

Forgive me, I don’t understand how it builds up the MC/protag if it doesn’t do anything for the stats?

[Eiwynn]

@Niki_Christopherson

Forgive me, I don’t understand how it builds up the MC/protag if it doesn’t do anything for the stats?

An armor kit can “do” any number of things, from providing customization that strengthens immersion (ie. I see my knight in shining armor as wearing chain mail and another sees their knight in shining armor wearing plate) to indirectly giving bonuses that affect game-play (ie +10 to stealth for leather armor).

Perhaps wearing armor will open up “intimidation” option on future choices, or perhaps it does something more involved in the story’s plot, like allowing an escape from a fortress …

I believe that the building up of a protagonist MC through choices can take as many forms as an author’s imagination will allow it to.

[Dvalor53]

@Eiwynn

First … a general rule I try to follow is that every choice either builds up a stat-mechanic or tests one. So, as I write, I go down my imaginary checklist and insert a choice that does one of those two things.

In Dawn of Heroes, every time the reader selects a check, it increases that stat; pass or fail. I’m going off the idea that the more you do something, the better you get. A nice +% so stats that are already high do not gain as much.

With this skill methodology I never lower skills. They only improve, but I do not have extremely high checks in hope that characters will be a bit more balanced in their skills.

@Fusion_Ultimatum

Hey guys! Just a lil question. Do you guys plan where and how much you put the personality stat increases or do you just post them at random? I added them randomly under a choice that is similar to that personality, but now I want to make scenarios where your personality affects the story, I have no clue of what number to base it on.

@HannahPS

The stat thing: this is how I do it - I use variables rather than numbers which for my pass and fail thresholds, but you can do exactly the same thing with numbers.

I kind of touched on an idea for how to do something related to this. I’m not sure if it’ll help, I was a bit long winded and there are a lot of numbers thrown around. It is all game theory anyways.

Keeping Track of Stats

The good news is that method I’m trying to explain tackles what you are trying to do. It tracks the likelihood of passing a check for you. Assuming all of the same values are as I started in the code above. I’ll run over some of the numbers at different stages of the game. Skill >= (LiftTrack * Difficult) This first example will be the base value. Maybe a few base 10 stats, but no extra lifts of 5. LiftTrack = 0. Lets say it is an Evil Check Skill >= (LiftTrack * Evil) Skill >= (0 * 5) Skill >…

[poison_mara]

I am in the weird place I always am when I write children’s stories. It is with sci-fi my favorite genre to write in…

It comes to me almost naturally… Then where is the issue ?

I get frustrated with myself because is a genre that nobody here gives 4 shits about. It won’t let me any freaking where I should be writing romance or any other popular thing I am bad at it and I do not care but is what people only care.

I feel like a failure and guilty as charged for only be more or less competent in genre will never ever get me near of my dream. That makes me bitter with myself and feeling that I will never reach my dream of publishing. I will never be there working on kid stuff.