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I agree. Even if the choice changes no stats, or doesn’t even have any flavour text, if it affects how the player views their character, it’s still a good choice. Sure, you should have lots of choices that do have changes, but in my mind, not every choice should have to.

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I think usually the code is included in the word count, but it doesn’t make much of a difference.

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Not commenting in total scope, just saying this much: Word count length is gotten by running wc on a mac. I don’t look at what authors put down, and I don’t ask them about it. If a game has significant comments, I remove them before running the word count. It’s of course then rounded.

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And you won’t hear any disagreement out of me on this. What started my reply was whether some CoG games contained a large number of fake choices, and what constitutes it; not whether I personally had a problem with it, because I don’t.

For that matter, I freely acknowledge that because I’ve been exposed to so mucho of it in various fashion (whether writing quest mods, games, collaborating, contributing stuff on pen and paper rpgs, etc.) that it colors my experience as well.

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Thank you very much! That’s very kind of you to say. And also, the same to you!

Then I suppose this is where we differ in opinion. Those are the kind of things I love and by no means would call a fake choice. They’re what make the story unique to each player- what allows for greater immersion because it makes it feel as if it is your character in there, that the reader truly has an effect on the story and how it continues.

It is the things like that which personally fascinates me about CoG and, well, interactive fiction in general. The small bits and pieces that really draw the reader in and let them know that they are not just reading some book they picked up, but makes them feel really connected to it, feel like they’re really a part of it.

For your example- if you play a cruel MC, then the main character of that story is cruel. Now say you go through again, and play a kind MC, suddenly you’re reading a different story- with a kind main character!

It may be a small touch but it’s a story about an entirely different person with entirely different responses. Sure, they’re responses to small things and maybe the two different people end up in the same place by the end- but the beauty to me is the fact that now you’re reading about someone else- what would they do if they were in the same situation?

It’s almost like debating about alternate history. But more personal.

But, of course, as you yourself stated, it varies from person to person. In the end I suppose it must be taken as a series of individual cases- how does each person react and take to interactive fiction? What are they looking for? If it doesn’t line up with what they’re looking for in a choice, then they might view it as a fake_choice.

Which also means that any specific reply, be it mine own or someone else’s, must be taken with a handful of salt.

And, of course, not every fake_choice is a bad choice. I’m of the mentality that even small fake_choices can be used to better flesh out one’s own image of their MC…

But, I suppose that could have been garnered from my ramblings above!

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I think the money being made requires a bit of analysis…
Is the money being made by works of literature? Games? Or both?

If “stories” that have little to no literary value sell well, then perhaps they should be classified as games because they are enjoyed purely for entertainment value?

Is the end user (the purchaser) a reader, or a player? Is the product more of a game, or more of a story?

Of course, there can be overlap between the two categories.
My point is that discovering the intent of the purchaser can lead to a wider audience capture.

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I’m late to the discussion on “fake_choices” but there is a bit of malleable meaning when using that term.

The *fake_choice in coding is no more or less “significant” in outcome and impact as *choice, especially with the practical coding function converging as they have.

As @Lys says in so many ways, the time, effort and work going into the design of a choice (both *fake and normal) are the elements of execution of that designed mechanic. The structure of that mechanic needs to be involved in any discussion here because without that, the total impact of that designed game element can not be evaluated.

No matter how “significant” a choice is, if it is disconnected from the mechanical structure of the game, it hampers the reader-gamer’s acceptance, immersion and enjoyment of the game.

Some of the least significant choices, such as the characteristics customization, (height, eye-color, preferences, etc) actually end up being very important to the gamer - look at the requests received for further customization always received in the reviews… if this customization ends up being isolated and disconnected from the mechanical structure, that is when you often encounter gamer disconnect from your story-verse

Likewise some of the most “significant” choices in games here are negated because of this disconnect - branching and word count not with-standing.

If the gamer is disconnected from the structure you make, then you have a limited time to reconnect them. If you fail to reconnect them to your story-verse, they feel betrayed, manipulated and they focus on the very things in your story you don’t want them to. This is what I see in the latest Hero Rise story (ymmv) - a disconnect between the reader-gamer and the game itself that continued too long.

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And as an aside to what @Eiwynn says, if the writer is able to touch on such things, even if in a light manner, might resonate with some players. Take eye color as an example, if the player chooses ‘green eyes’ at the start, and then a romance option later says “I love the green in your eyes.” then some players would notice and appreciate that.

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I want to point out that a lot of what I think readers might consider “fake” choices are likely testing choices which might only branch the moment a tiny bit, but may impact secondary stats, which late-game will themselves be tested, and the results of those tests branch a story significantly. Which is one reason I like to say “every choice matters,” and this precise design mechanic is what I gave a presentation on at WorldCon.

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I think the " I love your [insert color here] eyes" thing is a fake choice if the NPC says the same thing to everyone. I like replayability and I notice if dialogue or scenes are just copied and pasted for “different” characters (excluding those that are explicitly gender flipped) with no real change and I think it’s meh. The pacing between choice and narrative also gets thrown off with all those characteristics choices that don’t change anything because there are no visuals and the intro gets too choice heavy and kind of quiz like.

I like having the gender and name options even though nothing gamewise may change and I understand the need of choices to not have a 20,000 word wall of text with only a few choices that branch the story.

I think length is so subjective because of different reading speeds. A speed reader who can read 1,000 words per minute (wpm) could finish one 20,000 word play through in 20 minutes. Sure, there’s replayability, but who’s to say that the reader wants to replay?

How does the price per (read) time compare to other leisurely activities like watching a movie, or purchasing a visual novel while also factoring in all the high quality and free narrative games?

How does the cost , in general, compare to other games on the hosting platform? I think a lot of games on the google app store are free or freemium or less than $10.

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I would pay more for a console or pc game because they are made for gaming, period. Mobile gaming is primarily not going to make you pay for a game, they get revenue from ads or optional micro-transactions (look at any larger mobile game). So people seeing mobile games that cost money is usually a turnoff.

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Whaaaaat? You crazy man. You crazy. I love premium games. That’s almost all that I get. Or maybe I am crazy. Could be both?

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I agree that the perception seems to be mobile games should be free among many people. That attitude actually drives me crazy. I hate the freemium model that has been developed from it. Although a few games get it right with a balance between ads, optional extras and premium content, many just turn into money sinks to play. Instead of paying a few dollars outright for a game, there’s microtransactions everywhere if you want to get anywhere and you either end up not paying and hating the game/wait times or pay up and keep paying up (which I usually refuse to do, I’d rather buy a game I like outright and will move on). I also think people misunderstand what the revenue from ads is. (It’s probably lower than you think).

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I’ve read a couple of articles regarding these. The ones that advertise using movie stars and models, the “Evony” types … they make enough money that they can afford fees from AAA Hollywood types. People spend thousands each week just to keep their virtual armies going … one guy was spending 25,000 a week before he quit and he wasn’t the top spender on the game.

A bunch of those things are basic copy-paste but they still keep the cash flow incoming.

Micro-transactions are becoming commonplace in AAA games as well. Take Two (makers of Grand Theft Auto) has made a lot of money in their online portion for the past four years.

It does so well (as a short term money maker) that EA continued the Mass Effect multiplayer while giving up on the single player. 3 or 4 million invested gets them 100 million + with the “plus” part growing under paywalls.

Yet, the gaming industry is changing and this golden goose is going to be cooked for many if they try to keep their short term profit-making going. It just might take a bit to fully see these changes easily but change is starting to happen on this front.

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Wow that’s amazing. I must admit, I’ve been surprised how they keep going and that must be how if people are attending that amount of cash. Thing is, many are obviously ripping people off (one game I was playing, you’d easily spend at least $30/day just to not keep hitting long wait timers and that’s not including accessing “premium” content which was extra, so I can see how it’d add up if you weren’t careful. It just strikes me as odd that if you’re going to spend $100+ to play a reskinned mobile game, why wouldn’t you just go out and buy a console Game for less and you can play it to your heart’s content forever. Anyway, I hope you’re right @Eiwynn, I’d like to see the return of reasonably priced games you can buy outright, or even monthly subscriptions instead of the money sink freemium models.

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These games have learned a lot from casinos. I mean, they even refer to their big spenders as ‘whales’.

I wasn’t kidding about the casino comment. They deliberately go the manipulative route, and unfortunately some people are really susceptible to it, spending a lot of money even if they couldn’t afford it.

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(bear with me, I haven’t read all of the thread closely, so I might easily repeat what’s been said before)

I’m no fan of giving a bad rating because of a short playthrough length. Granted I DO check before what the total wordcount is (if given, the older games don’t have it as commonly I found) but still. Saying per se that a game is bad cause it is short seems… elitist.
Especially (and some might hate m for this) when you have games (not naming anyone specifically) where, wow, yeah, it’s long AND has multiply parts, but good bleeping hells, this is on bad-ya-cliche-drama-fest if I ever saw one, why the heck does it have such a high rating?!
It’s subjective, I know, but I feel quality should rang higher than sheer quantity.
Also I’d say there’s a difference between ‘choices not mattering’ and outright ‘railroading’. If the story can logically get you from A to B semi-regardless, that’s fine with me. Hells, to me that can easily become a reason to replay it, just to see what changes.
But if a game has only ONE possible outcome at points (like no matter what you do, you will fail because the plot demands it), no matter WHAT you try, or only ONE way you can actually succeed, then… nope.

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I thought I was weird for doing this, glad it’s not just me.

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You may be right in that assessment but for the most part it doesn’t really apply to me. I’m an avid reader that just happens to read fast, that doesn’t mean I skim through the text and hop from choice to choice. I definitely don’t skip on my first playthrough but since I usually only play it once or twice that means I rarely ever reach a point where I want to skim… the issue with this playstyle is that it never really allows me to truly see everything a CYOA-style game has to offer, thus shortening my experience on a game that is already small.

The problem here for me personally is that I enjoy playing visual novels, the longer the better and when you play something akin to the Grisaia series, or any other title meant to offer at least 10 hours of reading in a single playthrough, every other game suddenly feels shorter. Its not a fair comparison I know, but it sets a standard, so when you’re suddenly faced with a 50k word game split into different paths… the difference is noticeable.

All of this is more of a psychological thing for me than anything else, kinda like staring at a tall glass next to a shorter but wider one while both containing the exact same amount of liquid. The former FEELS like it has more when in reality you’d be drinking the same amount from each, no matter the presentation. A game split into more page breaks with more choices would certainly help but at the same time, as Lys has mentioned, wouldn’t do much in the long run because you’d be setting fake choices just to extend a game that otherwise was meant to be short. And that’s no go because it affects quality.

In the end its not really your fault here but my own - buyers all have their own standards and expectations, its unhealthy to expect or even hope to appease them all.

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I would say that these two things are very different. The first one is closer to what you were saying about “railroading” – i.e. it’s not bad unless it’s done badly – (unless it’s a case where every choice has only one outcome), but the second is one thing I really dislike. If there’s only one option that will succeed, then it’s not a choice; it’s a guessing game.

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