More transgender options in the cog/hosted games?

General
184

Thank you so much for not closing the thread, it really is very helpful.
And thanks @Wire, your opinion in this matter means a lot.

I just want to stress that, not being trans (I think. Depending how we end up defining things :P) , I may misspeak, or ask something blunt, and hurt people, but that never is my intention (and I suspect the same goes for everyone here). In the face of our ignorance, we may ask questions that seem evident to you, or that might offend you, it’s like a white person asking a black person “Do you feel as much pain as I do?”, a ridiculous question that would offend the black person, but asked out of ignorance and genuine curiosity, not out of malice. Intention is everything, so please do not assume we mean to hurt you, offend you, or invalidate your view of things. I for one, only want to learn, and that presupposes me asking dumb or offensive questions.

If I ask why you identify as trans, it’s not to invalidate your identity, it’s just because I’m genuinely curious to understand the experience of trans people, I have no other agenda. If I say “I don’t get how a person without dysphoria could be trans, isn’t that insulting to the people who are actually suffering from it?” again, it’s not to invalidate your identity, it’s an invitation for you to explain your view on that to me. It’s only by asking our questions bluntly and directly that we can make ourselves understood and get the answers we are looking for, instead of having to turn around the pot for fear of offending someone, if we do that, we run the risk of misunderstandings.

And these questions are important, because thanks to this thread, now I know that I can’t assume that the trans MC in my story would be preoccupied with getting his testosterone fix, or wearing a binder. Now I know that that has to be an option for the player to choose or not.

You did, and for whatever it’s worth, thank you for that. A lot of your advice has been duly noted.

Yes, I did make that assumption for the sake of simplicity, to find common ground by showing that both definitions were not entirely at odds, and get the conversation moving forward. @genjishimada’s was better phrased to include these cases.

No, I get that someone may not be able/willing to transition for whatever reasons and still be trans. I’m trying to determine how far the definition (“a person who identifies with another gender than they were designated at birth”) stretches. Let me rephrase: Does this definition assume that a person would eventually feel the need or want to transition or come out etc because of their identity?
For example, take a man (assigned male at birth, with a male body) who doesn’t particularly identify with his gender, feeling like he falls somewhere in between male and female maybe with a slight penchant towards female, but really doesn’t care enough to actually do anything about it (couldn’t care less if he was referred to as “he” or “she” etc). Is he then really cis, trans or something else? If he wanted to say he was trans, would he be accepted by the community? (There goes the dumb question probably)

I am sorry people reacted that way, that sucks. “How do we know who is trans and who is not”, and the reasons people identify themselves as trans are a legitimate questions though, especially if we’re trying to include a nuanced and accurate trans option for the MC. Thanks for any help you can offer on this, it’s really important to define our terms, so we don’t talk past each other.

185

I thought you explained well, and you’ve provided so many valuable links and insights in this discussion.

You finally got something to click for me that I spent months trying to understand and I really do appreciate that.

1 Like
187

Please don’t describe fellow forum members’ identities as “incorrect.”

We’re all making somewhat abridged arguments here, given the form, and it’s uncharitable to put too much weight on what’s explicitly included or omitted. For my part, I thought the definition implicit in Bagelthief’s rejection of “body” as the core element in gender identity was pretty clear, and that your own argument-by-assertion is (as it stands) less impressive an example of rationality than you seem to be suggesting – though I’m confident that you could unpack it at greater length.

But as I’ve said on other threads, this isn’t a debating society, so I’m not going to walk deeper into a debate on this, any more than on parsing “incoherent” v “incorrect.” Because the bottom line is:

Similarly, if you consider someone’s expressed gender identity “absurd,” sit on your impulse to tell them so. Reframe that impulse into a question, if you actually want to understand their perspective better. That is, as @Sithwist says, “an invitation for you to explain your view on that to me,” and as long as it’s phrased with normal courtesy, it should be treated as such – civilly, respectfully.

But if at the end (or beginning) of a conversation you still conclude that someone’s gender identity or self-definition is

  • irrational
  • implausible
  • nonsensical
  • unscriptural
  • inauthentic
    or other similar adjectives, keep that judgment to yourself. CoG’s not the place to declare it or to debate it. “Trust but verify” is necessary for nuclear arms reduction treaties. It’s a bad approach to what your fellow forum members say about themselves. We don’t need to verify.

This is not the same as saying that cis people can’t talk about trans people, or that there’s a single right way for trans people to talk about trans people. But bring a presumption of respect to any conversation about people’s identity, please. If you can’t sincerely respect what someone’s saying about their own identity, take a break, watch a YouTube video, and walk away.

10 Likes
189

@wire thank you for replying to me! I did got a bit anxious that I misstepped somewhere and even if we don’t agree on everything I think we can agree these type of discussions should be had with a clear mind. And the thing is the trans community is indeed very much divided on how things should be handled within it but it doesn’t mean everyone’s voices shouldn’t be heard. And to @Sithwist I see what you’re asking now! Thank you for clarifying. There are actually many such people as you’ve just described actually! I’ve met one such non binary individual as you’ve just described. As for whether they are considered trans or not… That’s a bit complicated. As I said before the trans community is very divided when it comes to people like this. To me, personally, they are still trans. But I do think they have a sort of, for lack of a better word, privilege over other trans people because they don’t want to transition and don’t care about pronouns. Many trans people are split in this as I said before. I know some people who would disagree with me and say that person isn’t trans and I can see where they are coming from but for me that person identifies as a gender different than the one they were assigned so they are trans.

Ah! I forgot to mention one thing! Non binary people don’t always identify as trans! Which is also perfectly valid. So in that sense, you have to be careful not to apply the label of trans to just any body who identifies as another gender than the one they were assigned at birth. Some people don’t want to use the label trans even if they fall into that category.

3 Likes
191

Thanks for your thoughts, I was wondering how closely you stuck to that definition. The example I gave is very similar to the way I am, I feel in between genders, and roll my eyes and sigh when I am reminded people do not perceive me as I do. Other than that, I really don’t care, and further, I have a hard time understanding exactly what it is to feel attached to a specific gender, why people care so much, why people feel the need to assert or inhance their femininity or masculinity, or to transition from one to the other. That’s a far cry from what a trans person (in the stricter definition of trans) experiences.

It would never even cross my mind to call myself or someone like me trans because I think that would be a gross dismissal of what trans people experience, especially those suffering from dysphoria or those who are the victims of abuse or incredulity for revealing who they are. That’s why I’m very reluctant to accept your definition of trans, which is in my view, way too loose and inclusive. I would have thought shared experience would be a criterion, such as the desire to transition, at the very least. There are other, much more appropriate labels for people like me to choose from (not that I would wear them, not too fond of labels…) no need to include us under the trans umbrella, where we really don’t belong.

I’d love to hear other trans people’s definitions of “transness”.

Obviously :stuck_out_tongue:
Any ideas on how we can give the player that option without making it feel like a meaningless choice (just press “I’m trans” and no further mention of it) and without getting heavy or making light of the topic?
Your idea sounds cool, having the antagonist as a romance option, I’d love to play it someday.

What about the other way around, in a game where the MC can be trans? Do you think it’s important for the MC to get a scene where they discuss that they are trans with their romantic interest (like ask if it bothers the RO, to which the RO will react differently depending on personality, but ultimately say it doesn’t matter), or would you prefer that it’s just assumed that the RO is fine with it?

3 Likes
192

@Sithwist you bring up a good point! Not everyone likes labels and though they may experience gender differently they may not feel or want to label themselves as trans and that should be respected. Thank you for calling my attention to this.

193

Is he open about being trans?

Transitioning isn’t possible for all trans people. That doesn’t make them any the less trans.

I think being trans also has a level of self-identification. So if you don’t identify as trans, then no one should really tell you that you are.

That in itself can cause problems, but that’s a hornets nest I’m not getting into.

194

I’m happy that my WIP (Monsters of New Haven High) was mentioned a couple of times positively in this thread. Part of why Day 1 took so long to write is that the MC’s identity coding was a massive endeavor.

Just in terms of gender, the basic categories are male, female, or other. Any of these characters could be trans, or not. “Other” leads the code to a more specific sub directory where it remembers whether the player is non-binary, genderqueer, or other options. Gender presentation/fashion sense is separate, so the clothes in the MC’s wardrobe will match whatever makes the most sense to the player.

From there the code checks only what’s relevant. A trans woman’s character sheet reads “female”, but when it comes to the locker room scene, those variables will be checked and the options and text slightly altered if she’s trans. The same thing happens with other variables.

It’s difficult, I inevitably get things wrong, and I’ve only been able to pull it off at all with the constant feedback of trans people and other knowledgeable people on the forums. As well as their support and wisdom, I can always count on someone here to criticize me when I fuck up.

Thanks again, everyone.

5 Likes
195

So let’s come to a few definite conclusions in this thread, because I’d rather we not spend another hundred posts arguing about various parts of the trans community.

  1. Cis or trans, we all have a valid and equal voice here. Do not dismiss someone’s views because they are not trans. That does nothing whatsoever to help anybody. The only exception is if someone is going out of their way to insult or demean someone else (This is against the rules). In that case, don’t argue back, please report them so the mods can handle them.

  2. The trans umbrella and definition is much more broad than most would believe. Some may argue about the definition of who is or isn’t trans based on some standards (Such as willingness to transition or gender dysphoria), but the world is rapidly changing, and what may have once been a fairly decent definition of who is or isn’t trans has become outdated as the internet connects us together and reveals a much larger and more broad community than we ever could have imagined.

  3. Just to help some who may not be as connected to the trans community as many of us are, I’m going to toss out a few definitions for things I know that may be mentioned often in this thread (Note, many of these definitions are based on my perspective, as a trans woman. I won’t know every definition and I don’t plan on touching the more broad or argued ones):

Trans - Short for transgender, and the preferred term when referring to the overall trans community.
Transition(ing) - The act of taking steps to openly become a member of the sex you identify with.
HRT - Hormone replacement therapy. When someone who is trans and intends to transition outwardly to the sex they identify with, they often have to take hormones to make the body shift to fit that sex. ‘Second puberty’ is a term I like to use.
MtF/FtM - Terms still used by older and longtime members of the trans community to refer to those who are transitioning from one sex to the other. MtF is Male to Female. FtM is Female to Male. More often than not, this term is underused in favor of trans woman or trans man, which is fine when talking to allies and other members of the LGBT+ community, but around those still new to the trans community, this term is a bit easier.
Trans Woman - Someone transitioning from male to female. Preferred over MtF.
Trans Man - Someone transitioning from female to male. Preferred over FtM.

These are the definitions I am most familiar with and confident in. I may not be 100% correct on all of them, in which case please PM me with your reasoning and I will alter it. These do not cover near enough of the terms and definitions used by members of the trans community, but as I said, these are the ones I am familiar with.

With all of that said, if you have any questions regarding trans women (I will answer anything, though some things I may not answer in this thread), I will be happy to help.

13 Likes
197

Highlight the text you want to quote and then click “quote reply.”

:slight_smile: I think that makes for a dynamic, fun, interaction in a game and some interesting moral dilemmas.

Maybe when you’ve written more of the story, you’ll have a better grasp of him, and how he’ll tell the MC? Or maybe the MC can beat him to it, and tell him they’re trans first.

198

Okay, here’s an idea I’ve been playing with that’s either really cool or really silly/wrong/busted - opinions, please.

There’s a non-COG game I’ve been working on, a dating sim with various female romance options. I personally know that one is trans; it just seemed right when I was creating her. But because the main character is not in her skin and I wasn’t planning for her to have a big “confession scene”, and it’s a future world where birth biology isn’t considered predictive of one’s gender identity, it doesn’t have a reason to be directly pointed out.

I was thinking of releasing the game just like that; briefly mentioning that one of the women is trans, or not mentioning it unless asked, but giving no obvious “tells” as to which it is. If anything, I could put a subtle picture somewhere of her family, where in her younger days she dresses like a male of the culture.

Is a game like this worthwhile for its sheer lack of highlight, its normalization? Or would it be better to more directly address the issue, if only to include more consciously the message that these differences exist in the game, however meaningless they’ve become in this culture?

Edit: I came up with a solution through asking the question and thinking about it, which might work: if the main character becomes close to that particular woman, that’s a part of her history they may be able to ask about then.

…Still, I like the idea of there being no real in-game way to know.

3 Likes
199

I’m really not very fond of the use of the word “respect” in this context - it sounds like a simple thing, but it’s a semantic synonym for “accept.” Any contradiction or questioning of that self-described identity counts as not “respecting” it, so when it’s directly pertinent to the discussion it essentially means conceding before a word is spoken. Forbidding any questioning of self-descriptions (or, by extension, the broad refusal of definition that I originally questioned) leads directly to the term of “transgender” being drained of all meaning, since, as I suggested before, any substantive definition of a state must be able to exclude people from it.

That being so, considering the circumstances, I will indeed have to walk away from the discussion, which I hope will be otherwise productive.

2 Likes
200

I myself am a cis and to be honest I don’t really understand what it means to be transgender, genderqueer,gender fluid or what have you(I’m sure there’s more but there the only ones I know).

Furthermore I don’t feel like anyone truly knows what it means to be one of these things unless you are one and are experiencing it first hand. In no way do I mean people shouldn’t try to understand but you know give cis people a bit of a break especially writers.

Going on this I do think that the trans community should get adequate representation in games just don’t expect it to be exactly what you expect.

Sorry if I sound presumptuous but these are just my thoughts and hey this is a discussion right? Feel free to correct and or enlighten me.

201

Simply selecting the actual text you’d like to quote pops up a “quote reply” button. The first occasion will begin your reply. Subsequent occasions, while typing your reply, will add additional quotes to your post.

[…And back to lurking. Fascinating topic, and I’ve learned a great deal, but I suspect that - like many others reading this - I’m not in the least bit qualified to contribute. I regret @Dominic’s departure though, simply because the replies to his comments and thoughts were especially revealing and, for me at least, illuminated more facets than I’d ever even bothered to consider before - to my shame.]

4 Likes
202

You make a fair point – but I’d counter that there’s a meaningful difference between abstaining from argument and conceding, and between silence and acceptance.

I have massive religious and philosophical differences with loads of people on this forum. Yet I often choose not to “contradict or question” them because I recognize that the primary purpose of the forum is not the relentless pursuit of truth, but creating an encouraging environment to talk about and make games.

I don’t see my refraining from argument as an indication that I accept their views, let alone concede to them. I just don’t think this is the right place to start an argument on some topics. Not all arguments have a place in all forums.

It’s common for less socially privileged people to hear (explicitly or implicitly) that they should keep quiet and not make a fuss and spoil everyone’s day, especially when they’re in places where “everyone’s just trying to enjoy themselves.” The forum is engaging in some reverse privileging – we are especially concerned to be an LGBT-friendly environment, so we will ask people to refrain from arguing in ways that disparage people’s identities. However good and important you think your argument is.

The definition of trans offered by genjishimada and (implicitly) Bagelthief allows for exclusion. My comfort with the gender identity I was assigned at birth clearly excludes me. I grasp the definition and consider myself excluded.

It’s true that it would be difficult for anyone else to declare me authoritatively excluded. But that is a political problem, not (as you seem to be arguing) a philosophical one. A definition can be rationally coherent whether or not it’s useful for a particular project of group formation. “Substantive” sounds good here, but it’s a semantic synonym for “politically useful” masquerading as “rational.”

4 Likes
203

Question.

If a RO offered to use their power / knowledge to cast a spell / ritual on a TransMC that would allow them to become the gender they wished to be. Would that be offensive even if the TransMC is given a chance to say no and the romance wouldn’t end because of that response?

204

I would say that’s perfectly ok.

1 Like
205

I would say it depends on how it’s done. I think there’s room for it to be offensive there. There’s also room for it not to be offensive. It depends on the nuance.

If they’re offering it as a supportive option, not pushing the issue, make sure the protagonist knows that they don’t mind either way, which option is chosen, and are gently reassuring throughout, I can’t see a problem with it. If they don’t push a timeline on acceptance either, and give plenty of space and time to think about it, answer questions posed, particularly in regards to any side-effects, what cost it will have, what the MC will owe them, and if it can be undone, how long it lasts.

1 Like
206

I didn’t want to go into too much detail. But in Unnatural Lakota would more than likely mention it’d be possible to a TransMC. He certainly wouldn’t push it. I just feel it’d be offensive to trans readers.

207

I’d say it’s such a significant offer for a trans character though. It could be life-changing.

It’s probably best not to do it as just a single choice, brushed over with a sentence and a single sentence response never to be touched upon again.