Mathbrush reviewing Hosted Games (Latest: Hero or Villain: Genesis)

Moonrise

I received a review copy of this game.

This is a visceral and fun werewolf game where you, a medical resident, become turned into a werewolf by a teen girl werewolf looking for family.

The game has restrictions on gender; you can use she/her or they/them pronouns, and you can choose to be cis or trans, but not male (either cis or trans). This allows the story to explore themes related to the treatment and marginalization of queer women, including by straight/cis women (represented here by an evil vampire overlord).

There is a focus on found family, and many choices are between conforming to society or being wild and free. The first 4 or 5 chapters are dedicated to setting stats while the latter chapters only test stats, which was explicitly announced (I liked that feature). I did have trouble figuring out which choices affected which stats in the early chapters.

Despite its shorter length (50K words) I was really pleased with how many consequential choices there were in the game. Each chapter had a few choices that felt like they could really influence the future (trying a bit of a replay, some did [like skipping whole scenes] while others had cool flavor then went back to normal).

The only thing that threw me off was the ending section. First we find what feels like an insert from a different piece of fiction by the author (an Isekai-d OP character without a lot of connection to the rest of the world and who is ‘cooler’ than the protagonist). The very very end was also kind of confusing; there was one page about another version of us from a mirror, which I couldn’t tell if it was literally our AU self or if there was another werewolf who was like us.

Overall, though, if you want to play as a woman eviscerating sheep or if you like werewolf media then this game is for you.

I could genuinely see myself recommending this to people I know IRL since its fast-paced, interesting, touches on universal themes, and is not confusing and fairly short.

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(sorry if this one sounds weird, it was originally written for IFDB)

Life of a Mercenary

I was given a review copy of this game.

While this isn’t the Hosted Game with the highest wordcount (coming in at 380K words), it’s really big gameplay-wise, as it uses simulation-style gameplay to get a lot of mileage from less words. I played it over 2 weeks.

You play as the head of a mercenary company, and you have a variety of stats like intelligence, stamina, health, etc. You also have money, guards, healers, etc. Together with you are your stalwart companions Arlo (level-headed and kind) and Anne (cutthroat and mercenary). You can also add other characters to your roster.

Rather than a strong central storyline, the game progresses through missions. Each mission has some fights you have to do and some gold. Missions often have ethical problems; a common one is ‘will you help these people and lose money, or get money by letting them suffer?’ Sometimes it is more complex, though, like ‘will you help this group of people if it hurts another group?’ There are also investigation segments where high intelligence or wisdom lets you take new conversation options.

There are tons of missions. The game was nudging me strongly towards retirement at the end, but I had about 4 or 5 big missions I could have done as well as a few tournaments I missed early on.

In between sessions, there is plot, as your advisors come to you with questions. I enjoyed seeing Arlo’s backstory in a side-quest; perhaps one of the quests I missed had Anne’s. I retired as a noble with Vera by my side.

There were bugs, as others have noted. I had negative soldiers at one point. Sometimes choices felt weird in ways that are hard to nail down (at one point I died and had to restart at a checkpoint while at other points I died with no lingering bad effects). But the overall quality of the game overwhelmed that negative point for me.

I also found the writing sparse and even dull at first, but as it progressed the quick dialog and fun characters grew on me, even though it never became very descriptive or florid. I think the author grew in skill while writing this.

Overall, I think I could recommend this to others. I think it has a demo, and gameplay is pretty similar throughout, so I’d recommend people to check out the demo and get it if they like it.

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The Aegis Saga

This game is a bit off the beaten path for most Choicescript games I’ve played. It’s long but eschews most numerical stats, instead giving you a variety of personality traits that come in threes and which you can switch between (I think, I was never quite sure).

There is a lot of worldbuilding here. There are many races, including one of scaled magic users and another of cannibalistic giants.

There is a pair of kingdoms with two rulers, each of which has their own consort. The consorts are the only people that know the identity of the heirs, who are camouflaged by being raised in orphanages. The current consort is the consort of both houses at once, which causes problems.

We follow four protagonists, with two making up most of the game. The first main protagonist is an orphan raised in one of those orphanages. The other is one of the scaly magic-users, embarked on an expedition to save their people. The two others appear in the prologue and in intermissions.

The stories are primarily relationship-centered, and not romantic ones, more like friendship, clanship, bullies, etc. There are some fights and several action scenes, but they mostly revolve around whether to help or protect others or to be selfish. I liked that.

For most of the story, I enjoyed the writing, characters, and worldbuilding, but I felt that the plot arc was kind of flat. It started off with bold moments and then just kind of simmered for 12-14 chapters, occasionally rising up and down. Important things happened, but it didn’t feel as coherent as it could, especially with switching viewpoints so often.

In the end, it is revealed (massive spoilers) Our two protagonists are actually the same! The scaly one is a partial reincarnation of the orphan’s soul. This definitely raised my opinion of the game, but I’m not sure it makes up for the slow-paced early development.

Being part of a series means that slow development early on isn’t too bad, but the ending of this game bursts with combinatorial explosion. It’s no wonder the author hasn’t finished the sequel; just resolving the loose threads from that last one would make the first chapter enormous (I had a similar issue when I helped revive a WIP by a different author, with permission, and my first task was to resolve an enormous combinatorial explosion with about 120 options on what kind of club activities you were going to have at a school festival).

So, as this game stands itself, it was very enjoyable, great writing and development, but could use better pacing/rising tension for my personal tastes.

Edit: Side note, some of the pillar names (a major city in the game has pillars named after gods) seemed familiar. It made total sense at the end when I saw they were named after beta testers from this forum!

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After having played several of the top-rated Hosted Games, I’m beginning to see some overarching patterns that explain to me why Hosted Games are often more favored on the forums and reddit than official Choice of Games.

First of all, Hosted Games tend to have more variety. It’s like Choice of Games and Hosted Games have the same mean but different standard deviations. So Choice of Games has a consistent style and Hosted Games has a little bit of everything, so it’s more likely that someone’s favorite game will be a Hosted Game, but there will generally be less examples of that type of game. On the other hand, if someone likes the Choice of Games style, they’ll find many games they like that are similar.

Beyond that, so many Hosted Games are unfinished parts of larger series, and that’s why I think they’re popular on this forum and on reddit. People that talk here are people that like to talk! (I know it’s a tautology, bear with me). What sparks conversation and sticking around? The unfinished and the unknown. I’ve seen it with a lot of manga series as they end (like JJK, Naruto, Bleach, and now Chainsaw Man). Before a series ends imaginative, expressive people can come up with their own endings, imagine possibilities, be thrilled with everything that could be in a game. Eventually, when the story finishes, those same people are the most devastated that it didn’t match their vision (I saw this with Terraria’s Skyblock update, where the most vocal critics are people who made their own skyblock maps and are mad Relogic didn’t copy them).

Most Choice of Games stories are one-and-done. Fans of them can buy them, enjoy them, possibly replay them or ask for tips on paths or post some fan theories, and then it’s over. They enjoyed it, they may come back to buy more, but there’s no need for a big community in general (with some obvious exceptions like Choice of Rebels or the Creme de la Creme universe).

What supports my theory is the popularity on the forums and discord for WIPs. I never personally enjoyed unfinished games, but that’s because interacting with the authors wasn’t something I had considered. Seeing people have give-and-take and influence on the game, I can see why that would be fun.

So I think I’m beginning to understand more, but I’d love to hear alternate opinions, since I’m making broad generalizations with only moderate evidence. I do think that Hosted and Choice of Games are more close in popularity than the forums would suggest (and, if I’m being honest, I enjoyed playing through all of the Choice of Games games slightly more than I have felt playing every Hosted Game, even the best ones).

But, both are fun. I can highly recommend both groups of games!

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Part of the issue too is that the CoG titles that did get sequels often have those sequels not well received. I don’t think their story template lends itself well to sequential game series. Or at least, that seems to be the going consensus.

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First of all, thanks for doing these reviews, I always like reading what people think of some of the games CoG and HG do that I’ve never heard of. I keep meaning to leave a comment on your threads and forgetting!

I think that my favourite ChoiceScript games are a pretty even mix across HG and COG, thinking about it; my instinctive answer was that I preferred HG games but when I think of my top 10 I realize that might not be true. Agreed on the HG / CoG mean vs standard deviation point, HG is definitely higher variance.

Half agreed with your second point; IMO HGs, standalone or sequels, lend themselves towards higher engagement because the model outputs serialized content with an extremely low barrier to entry (the WIPs are free!), often with at least a couple of years of content drops before a final release. It’s a much more prolonged ‘marketing’ cycle than most COG games get, and I suspect quite a few COG games would be more discussed if released in the same way.

I think the method definitely has its challenges and drawbacks too, so it’s not a 1-way street in HG’s favour for sure, but I can definitely see how it leads to more people talking about HG stuff at the very least.

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I’ve been saying for years that CoG is the more reliable brand, and HG is the more exciting one.

When you buy a CoG game, you know what you’re getting, and it’s usually very good. The CoG team have had over 15 years to refine their formula; what they’ve posted on their blog about stats, narrative goals, and delayed branching deserves to be read by anyone who would understand how IF works, even if they prefer to take a different approach in their own work. CoG knows what works and what doesn’t, and (usually) when to break their own rules for a better experience. But the strength of a reliable formula is also its weakness: it’s a formula, and adhering to that formula can result in a same-y effect - and in fact, the best work out of CoG is usually from authors who ride the formula with the reins firmly in hand, rather than those who adhere to it slavishly.

HG is like playing a rather generous lottery: occasionally you hit the jackpot, sometimes you win a nice sum, most of the time you more or less break even, and sometimes you’re left with nothing but buyer’s remorse. It has some of the very best IF ever written, in any medium, and quite a lot of the worst, at least that’s professionally published. (It’s always a little funny encountering someone who buys all their games on Steam, since the HG titles that get a Steam tend to be pretty good at least, so they’re seing only the upper half of the chart and thinking that’s the whole bell curve.) A lot of it is an object lesson on why the CoG formula is such a wonderful thing. But the lack of structure that results in so much mediocrity allows the really brilliant writers to soar unconstrained.

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It’s really interesting hearing everyone’s feedback; I’ll definitely go back and mentally revise my initial thoughts (WIP by itself is not enough to attract attention!)

I do agree that CoG house style dissuades sequels; part of that is that you’re asked to stop doing ‘establishing choices’ near the middle/end and focus on testing choices, so that most of the end of the book is experiencing consequences of the earlier part, which lends itself more to complete narratives than Book I of a series. Also, given that writers are paid for this, it’s easier to see it as a single unit of ‘job’ (“I must complete this book”) instead of a passion project (“I want to write an epic and have it span several books!”). That’s just a generalization, since we have passion project CoG games like Choice of Rebels, but it’s interesting. In fact, Choice of Rebels feels like a Hosted Game in a Choice of Games trenchcoat (in a positive way, there’s a reason it’s well liked).

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Years ago I had some discussions with Jason about game philosophy (online and at a convention, over an IPA). The more I write, the more I see why they have arrived at their philosophy (sorry, don’t like the word “formula” in this context). Having said that, I still write my games primarily for my own enjoyment (I derive some sort of enjoyment feeling to be a DM and enterteining my players). My writing is messy, my games are code-heavy (“Life as a Lich” drove me crazy in a happy way), ROs are mostly and afterthought (mostly), the paths through my games complex to the point that I don’t think I understand them well myself (a friend of mine proved to me he understood the structure of one of my games better than me, and I have seen this often in the forums). I keep writing essentially not as a “writer” but as a DM. I add side missions, new bits and pieces all over the place, implement new mechanics, then tweak them when I get feedback. My games are never “finished”… they are constantly evolving and (sometimes) improving (sometimes I mess things up!).

But, I guess this is typical of many of the HG authors. I think CoG once used the metaphore of a camera. They are hiring professional film-directors, who know what they are doing. Then, they are “renting” the “camera” (Choicescript) to a bunch of crazy people and see what comes out. Personally I love the craziness, and as this is not my main job I just want to write in my disorganized manner. Being given the freedom to do so is just great! :slight_smile:

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I think that’s right. I came in during the transitional era when they were asking friends (and former college Dungeon Masters, in my case) to write games for them. As the CoG formula developed, I was mindful that what I wrote differed enough from it that it might end up being published under the HG label, and I would have been cool with that.

As I wrote around the time of publication:

I’m glad CoG took a gamble on something different, for the sake of diversity in the brand. :slight_smile:

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I love seeing these viewpoints from different authors, it really adds to my understanding.

I have a game idea I’ve had brewing for a while, basically a DnD campaign but in space where Necromancers are represented by people installing cybernetics (so zombies are like corpses with a few mechanical parts, and resurrection can happen through downloading chips) and druids are bio-engineering people who mutate others. Instead of using actual DnD type things like randomness it would focus more on unlocking special actions it you have that ability. When I DM for my son and his friends, I don’t really focus on the mechanics, I just kind of roll with what they say (for instance, they flushed a love potion down the sewer, so later on when they fought an alligator it was in love with them). It would be written in an episodic way so that each chapter is a play session.

I bring it up because I’m not sure it would fit in the CoG format, so I might try doing it as a Hosted Game. But it sounds like there’s some flexibility, so I might pitch it once i finish my parser projects!

Anyway, these comments have been great, I’m happy to hear more. It looks like there’s a lot more going on behind the scenes than I thought; it’d be fun to see more ‘Postmortems’ like your Rebels one above.

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Normally I would agree, but I used “formula” here deliberately to emphasize the peculiar strength and weakness of their approach. At best, they have it down to a science without losing sight of the fact that it’s an art, and the results are of reliable quality: even their worst games are decently readable and entertaining, and their best are masterpieces of the IF medium. At the same time, being exceedingly good at something that works makes it tempting to keep thinking inside the box, and CoG isn’t immune to that.

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I think your point is absolutely fair (about the use of the word “formula”). :slight_smile:
Please don’t take what I wrote as a criticism, but just a personal feeling (coming from a coastal engineer, which is also the worst type when it comes to engineers, as it is the engineering that mostly feels like an art… and you would then question what do equations in coastal engineering really mean… which brings me back in full circle). Anyway, this is just a personal preference, and I see why (and accept) why people use that word (I re-read my post and realized what I wrote could be seen as a bit harsh, a more accurate way of writing would have been “I personally prefer not to use the word “formula”, while I can see while other people use it, probably due to my background as a engineer, but I can completely see why that word is being used in such contexts”.

(please accept my apologies if I came across as rude or too opinionated)

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Not a problem at all! As I said, I usually prefer to think about game design in terms of a philosophy myself. I used “formula” here to refer specifically to the praxis of that philosophy in the form of prescriptive and proscriptive guidelines. I think their philosophy is absolutely sound, but that doesn’t mean there might not be other viable design choices that work to the same or a very similar purpose. Most of the better HG authors seem to be working from a fairly similar philosophy of what an interactive narrative can and should do, but they have their own ways of putting it into practice. The difference is not in what or even why, but how the rubber meets the road.

And on that note, I’ll butt out of a discussion where I’m out of my depth anyway, and leave it to the people who actually know what they’re talking about. :slight_smile:

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My “like” should be taken to apply to everything you just said except the butting-out part. :slight_smile:

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I originally sent Fallen Hero as a proposition for a CoG but was turned down (I think I was too far in development) but I am very happy that I was. I’ve truly come to enjoy the weirdness of Hosted Games, of having very limited rules I need to play by, and that is what I enjoy when I read other games as well.

I like the weird. Even when it doesn’t always hit. I think it comes down to liking stories I can’t predict, or that features characters I can empathize with. Polish is nice but optional.

I think that’s the thing I see in Hosted Games, writers with drive and who knows how to manage constructing a game/story really thrive, but it is so easy for really talented people to go off the rails and take on/try too much. If they had been on CoG, I assume they would have been advised to be more realistic. So more Hosted Games fails as WIP’s, but the ones that pull through can be such gems.

I will add one thing though, that even though I am published through Hosted Games I have NEVER felt like an afterthought for CoG. I’ve got all the help and support that I wanted to, and I could probably have got more if I wasn’t the type to try and do things on my own as much as I possibly can.

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I should add that while I broke some of the CoG design rules, I was also challenged by those rules in a good way, and changed a bunch of things in response that strengthened the game a lot. (e.g. way fewer binary choices than I’d initially gone with; cutting out the “choice to be passive” from a bunch of places.)

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None of the structural experiments I use that bank on replaying the game a few times would fly in a standard CoG format. Gray Painter would still have the creepy prose but the fourth-wall breaking sense that you’ve actually been missing something important staring you in the face the whole time just wouldn’t be there. And A Kiss from Death wouldn’t work even on a conceptual level.

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Natalia Theodoridou did some of that in Restore, Reflect, Retry (for some reason I can’t blur a spoiler here anymore, so I won’t say exactly what), but he’s enough of an established and celebrated author that I’m not surprised they bent their own rules for him in ways they wouldn’t for almost anyone else.

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Meteoric

I was interested upon seeing this game, as I had heard of the author a lot before due to his frequent participation in discussions on the CoG forums and for the name of one of his WIPs (Mass Mother Murderer) and his saga of going to another company at one point.

So I really wondered what to expect here.

What I got was a tale that at its core is about belonging. You play as a young person in a crappy dead-end job with no money and no future. Following a fallen meteor, you stumble upon a demonic-looking microphone that promises you riches and fame in exchange for an unknown price.

Following the microphone’s prophetic urgings, you audition for a death metal band, winning the lead spot over a serial-killer obsessed would-be singer named Larry, who instantly becomes your nemesis.

The word that came to mind the most as I played the game was ‘alienated’, and later when Larry was explicitly described as alienated, I felt validated. I also thought of ‘disaffected’. Our main character suffers from many fallacies that I learned as part of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. Their biggest fallacy is ‘the fallacy of control’, where either they have a complete lack of control in their own life and suffer the whims of others, or they have total control and everything is their fault.

We see this in the way our character mentally divides people into ‘good’ and ‘bad’. ‘Bad’ people are like the cop and the manager or Larry. They inflict bad things onto our protagonist which we are unable to resist. All bad things in our lives are the fault of ‘bad people’, who have no redeeming features.

In contrast, our band members are ‘good people’, the kind of people we always dreamed would find us. ‘Good people’ never get mad at you for anything, are completely understanding, nurture you, find you strong but also help out at all times. If we can only find ‘good people’ and keep them from finding out how bad we are, we will be happy; but in this fantasy, even if they find out our problems, they won’t care. (Wayhaven has similar fantasies)

Our character really reminded me of an alienated youth I worked with once. He was handsome but thought himself ugly, and had good male friends but said that women hated him. I had quietly asked some of the girls his age what they thought of him and they said positive things, so I decided to observe him. He came into a class and the first thing he did was tell a joke about how much he hates women! I couldn’t believe it. Step 1 of getting people to like you is ‘don’t say you hate them’. That reminds me of this character; both don’t think that they have control over their lives, so if people don’t like them, it’s not because of their own actions, but because they’re ‘bad people’, and all you can do is wait for a ‘good person’ to come along.

Anyway, I think a lot of people will find this character relatable. The story has an actual really positive overall arc, almost wholesome. Our character finds community and fulfillment.

The writing is intensely physical and sensory-based. Dripping blood, cold mists, trembling knees. The prose isn’t purple, as it uses simple sentences, but is focused on these physical feelings to the extreme. That made it more compelling to me; I liked the writing quite a bit.

The choice-structure is unusual. I was annoyed at first that I found it hard to tell what choices had what effect, but I slowly realized that the first option always increases Toughness, the second one always increases Charisma, third Intelligence, and fourth something I don’t remember. This makes replays a lot easier. It’s not completely trivial, though, as each action also has an effect on which band member likes you, and that’s not always fixed in the pattern.

Stats could use some tuning. Relationships start at 50 and end at 60, so the numbers 61-100 are essentially useless. That could be fixed by just adjusting all the numbers to be bigger (both for boosts and checks) or switching to additive stats the way that the main stats are.

I did encounter a few minor bugs, which I’ll pass on to the author.

I think this game was less popular for a few reasons, the main being the low wordcount size (I’ve seen that in my own games of the same size!) and the way that the blurb and art don’t quite match the game itself (I didn’t know it was a rockstar game until I started, I thought at first it was a superhero game). I could recommend it to several people though, especially on reddit where people often ask for games with found family, or where you have imposter syndrome, or where you can be a jerk or have someone be a jerk to you.

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