Make romance a two way thing?

[snowgoose]

@poison_mara

I don’t understand why people want to be pursued and repeatedly hunted like hares. I really want to understand that to be better writer. But I am totally incapable of understanding that, for me that is creepy and even if is something natural in real life in games or literature I see it directly as stalking me. I wouldn’t write something like that and I see that as a flaw I have.

Maybe try to see it from other points of view other than hunting and being hunted, Mara. I’m pretty sure nobody wants to be hunted down like hares, seen as prey only to be leered at and chased and fucked. Maybe people view it as receiving affection. Maybe people view it as being shown love. Maybe people are glad that someone chooses them without needing to be convinced. I understand that you’ve had horrible experiences on top of being fed nothing but badly written hackneyed bodice rippers, and that’s honestly fine. But there are much more to love stories than ‘the romance genre’, or ‘defying the romance genre’, and there can be something for others, too.

Or let’s put it this way : if you like to approach first, then for that to be successful, there must be someone who likes being approached. Love is a give and take, no? It is a thing for two. Those people who like being approached, they deserve something, too.

I really, really don’t think TSSW would be your thing, by the way. For many more reasons other than the ROs being assertive.

Lastly, I’m sorry if this post is seen as combative. It’s very much not intended to be. Please feel free to flag (or delete, if mod) if it is.

[poison_mara]

No, it is a good post and very useful to learn to write another type of characters. It is what I am trying to do right now. Learning to write from the point of viewof others really thanks for the advice.

[RileyRock-pen]

I am also considering this option and would like some feedback. Since my romance/friendship relationships will be a two way thing, I was wondering if I should write the game in a 3rd person POV instead of a 2nd person POV, so that way the reader isn’t feeling like the NPC is trying to romance them first but is really showing interest in the MC but not the reader. Using the following as a very simple example: Either, “He seems to be interested in you … What do you do?” versus "He seems to be interested in [the MC’s name] … “What does [the MC’s name] do?” What are your thoughts?

Edited: changed 1st POV to 2nd POV

[Gower]

I think you mean second person, not first.

Also, I am not convinced that use of second person confuses the reader into thinking an NPC is romancing them. I would guess most players have a pretty solid grasp on the distinction between player and character.

Many players do find second person more immersive in IF, but I have read compelling IF romance in both second and third person. You can search for discussion of person choice on this forum — there has been some interesting discussion of the aesthetic effects of that narrative choice.

[RileyRock-pen]

@poison_mara - Would you read an IF if the story was written in either 1st or 3rd person POV (instead of the 2nd person POV) and the author mentioned up front that the NPCs may show interest to the MC (based on the choices made) but prior to the MC showing interest?

[poison_mara]

Probably it depends on I have investment and attachment on the pc. But 90% of no i will never played it. It would make me angry and hate that character and the whole story.

The story for me would turn in how destroy kill or betray that npc that is stalking me and being creepy

[RileyRock-pen]

Never said you couldn’t do that in my game

[poison_mara]

@Havenstone here has created a situation where a character is somehow forced upon the player (no exactly the same but we could say Certain NPC that starts B is blatantly presented as a romance) I love Havie game more than anyone here.

My HATRED for B aside, however, Havie let turn all my hatred against B and turn that in an obsessed hatred and paranoia against her him.

If you let the player react with hatred and hating the behaviour and not let it go I will certainly play your game happily. But not everyone is Havie.

[RileyRock-pen]

@poison_mara

If you let the player react with hatred and hating the behaviour and not let it go I will certainly play your game happily.

For some crazy reason, due to how the plot of the story will be going, and how everything will be lining up, you will surely get your wish.

[Ramidel]

I have a suggestion: Re-look at each potential RO who “pursues” you in each game. If they ask you out, do you perceive it as being pushed and harassed?

Personally, I don’t think that a simple request for a date is a violation of any kind of boundary - but if you’re turned off by the other party making that move at all, then an RO who will do that is obviously not someone who you’ll go for.

[poison_mara]

It all depends on what is the stage of a relationship. If we are really friends of have been on dates before is kinda natural that the other part proposes at the same level than me.

However, I am demisexual. And I have lots of problems to trust men I don’t know well or trust. If a random guy tries to date me or flirts with me. I will try to keep a poker face. But my real estate in the. fight or flight scale is pure fight and tense expecting psychologically that the guy wants to attack me or worse

[felz]

This is just an idea: what about having to level up certain stats or skills to trigger the “reverse” RO’s advances? Like, maybe RO A will try to express their interest in you ONLY after you’ve gained enough stats in… I dunno, let’s say “Intuition”? Something along those lines.

That way, it will be immersive and realistic. Everyobody is attracted to another soul for reasons. The feature can also be part of a challenge for gamers who would like to be pursued by ROs.

[poison_mara]

That is not really realistic a example
X is 20 in mathematics, has been kind to Y and going for all side quest etc.
When moment of romance triggers it appears mathematics 21 required.

However Z is a bitch to Y but has the magical 22 So Y behaves like Z is best person ever.
That is not realistic, it is all the contrary,

You don’t go to a date saying
Oh R, you have save me five times bought me flowers and we date five times. But now you asking me marriage. I can’t ; you don’t know how to solve this trigonometric quiz!

[felz]

I never said that having only one stat is the requirement. If you so please, add away bunch of things that would make the romance more believable, like the MC having to first developed some form of friendship with the ROs.

In any event, I think that having this feature is good since being randomly approached or flirted by ROs just because you are the sex they’re interested in is more baffling. But writers can write whatever they want, and opinions are just opinions. I was merely stating what I thought could become a feature in their games.

[E_RedMark]

The issue of your exemple, if I understand it correctly. It sound similar to say, approval in some games like Kotor 2. Where, if you get X amount of approval you unlock more dialogues. It say something like This person trust you more, and tell you more about their life.

It sound realistic right? but in truth, it become very very limiting. In the sense, that you (the player) end up saying what the person want to hear and not what you really want to say, so you get +1 approval. So in the end, it become a grind for points and ruin the whole thing (unless you like that kind of thing) .

Some romances (I think) do have stats, but they are all in the background. And don’t punish you for picking this reply or that reply.

Also, it add to the workload. Cose then, you have to track every single stat and what not.

@felz

flirted by ROs just because you are the sex they’re interested in is more baffling. But writers can write whatever they want

writers write what they know, within the scope of their own abilities. Some writers around here, it’s their 1st story ever. They learn, they grow and get better over time. Exellence is hard work and sometime take a life time, if ever…

[kris_g]

@E_RedMark

It sound realistic right? but in truth, it become very very limiting. In the sense, that you (the player) end up saying what the person want to hear and not what you really want to say, so you get +1 approval. So in the end, it become a grind for points and ruin the whole thing (unless you like that kind of thing) .

Yep, grinding for those points is something I normally do and I love it. It doesn’t ruin the game for me because the next time I play it I might choose a different path. So in my view, this is nor limiting at all, it adds more choice for the player by unlocking a new “max relationship score” path

And I believe, judging from the reaction to this thread, a lot of people would like to see this happen in some games. Not all. Some.

@felz

In any event, I think that having this feature is good since being randomly approached or flirted by ROs just because you are the sex they’re interested in is more baffling

Yes I had this in Choice of Romance, part II I think, if I remember correctly. A good game by the way, better than the reviews suggested, in my opinion. But… a certain RO wouldn’t take no for an answer even though I showed them no interest in the previous part. Personally, I didn’t feel irritated because of it. It still felt nice seeing them behave like that but I see how others might feel about it.

[felz]

@kris_g

Yep, grinding for those points is something I normally do and I love it. It doesn’t ruin the game for me because the next time I play it I might choose a different path. So in my view, this is nor limiting at all, it adds more choice for the player by unlocking a new “max relationship score” path

I agree. There are people who enjoy this kind of thing, and the more varied interactive games can be to facilitate different players, the better
Not to mention that when handled well, some games are making lots of money with this approach (Persona series, Dragon Age series, many many otome/dating sim games).

I understand that coding all those things maybe difficult, but if there are writers who are willing to take the risks, then I’m buying their games. Otherwise we will simply be back to square zero: having a one-way romance, which does have a (huge) market of its own and by no means “wrong.” Was just saying that varieties are nice to have, especially in a growing field such as interactive fiction

[Minty-Flower]

I think it just depends on two different things,the author and the reader. People want variety with their story’s and that’s ok. People want something that helps them connect with the story and some Author’s have different skills with (coding,story telling,ect). so for me I am ok with what we have but it would be fun to see someone do it

[Delfunia]

I’m kinda late to this lol but I totally get what you mean, it’s tiring being always the one who needs to take the next steps to start the romance (or making me choose to hang out with my RO instead of them approaching me) I don’t think it would bother me if the NPC made some moves as long as they made it in a respectful way, it’s not the same if the NPC asks my mc on a date or tries to hold their hand to having the NPC cornering my mc telling them they love them or forcing a hug/kiss on them.
In my case I would like it if there were some hidden stats that worked kinda as: the mc flirted certain amount of times with this RO which “activates” romantic actions that the RO themselves will start, for example asking them to hang out, it wouldn’t work the same as a RO who you have a good relationship with but haven’t flirted enough times with, this way having a high stat with a RO wouldn’t mean being attracted to them.
Of course this is only just an idea since I don’t fully know how scripting these games work, I wouldn’t be surprised if what I said before is very difficult to code or smt

EDIT: ALSO!!! Would love if the games gave more variation to the flirting options, most of the time you only have 1 flirt option and it tends to be very forward, in my case I like to give my mc a certain personality so to suddenly make a more reserved/shy mc flirt in a very bold way puts me off… a good example of what I mean is: The Wayhaven Chronicles, it gives you both bold and shy responses and even lets you answer in a not flirty way but still won’t affect the romance. Tho I understand that TWC is a romance focused game while most of the others are not.

[Konoi]

Yeah, I LOVE the way Wayhaven Chronicles lets you do the flirting. I mean, with the shy options, you’re literally NOT flirting most of the time. But you’re “making clear to the game” you want one route or the other, and the game can put you on the right tracks.

I’ve seen tons of debates about if this feels like harrassing or not, and well, both sides make lots of sound statements. But it’s always important to keep in mind some players will want to have a romance in these games, but at the same time, they may want to play an extremely shy character who would NEVER get the courage to do the first step (exactly my character in Wayhaven Chronicles). Or maybe a tortured character who fears getting to close to someone because they think they’ll lose them and/or end up getting hurt (totally my character in Fallen Hero).
I think diversity is important. I find myself most enjoying games where you have both types of characters, or various possible ways for a romance to start, both by player decision or with one of the love interests approaching the main character about that.

Honestly, to me, it doesn’t even have to be respectful as long as it fits the personality of the love interest. I mean, if they are a lousy jerk who flirts with everything they see, obviously they’ll do so with the MC too, and the player shouldn’t feel bad about rejecting them. But some people may like characters like that, or play a huge flirt in that specific game.

I’m a massive tabletop roleplaying gamer - I’ve been for years. I’m a player in a lot of games, but I’m the game master in just as much. When you create an interactive story for players to immerse themselves in, it’s EXTREMELY important to have all sorts of NPCs, without overwhelming the players though. Unless the opposite is stated, you have to assume your player wants some sort of romance (talking about my RP circle here). But PCs vary from one another, and some will approach NPCs wanting love or company, while others won’t. You need at least some NPCs who would be the one doing the approaching. And besides, it’s more realistic.
Usually though, you’ll want to make the NPCs courting or asking out the PCs to a small amount. The players don’t want to be bombarded by propositions, but having some is normal.
Typically, my players would initiate the courting with whatever NPC they want, but sometimes I’ve decided to make a NPC court a PC, and it actually worked out and the player liked that romance.

But I’m derailing the conversation. What I mean is that tabletop RP and interactive books are not SO different considering the amount of roleplaying. And after years of roleplaying, I may be influenced in what I like or not, but at the same time maybe I’m able to offer a different perspective on things.