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In the game I’m working on, I want to do something a little more two-way, if anyone has some advice?

What I have currently set up is each romanceable NPC has two relationship measures, one being friendship/general respect that they feel for the player, based on player actions (say something they find funny/admirable/etc, it goes up). The other is a count of the number of times the player has initiated a romantic encounter with this character. In practice, it should function like this:

  • For the NPC to initiate anything with the player character, the player must have chosen at least one romantic interaction (which are clearly marked as such), and the NPC needs to at least like them and be attracted to them (some NPCs have genderlocked romances)
  • The player can flirt with any potential RO, though ROs who are of the wrong orientation will say as much (a lesbian will tell a male player that she is not interested), and ROs who are simply not interested in the player will not reciprocate
  • The player can flirt with multiple NPCs, even in front of each other, as long as they are not in a relationship (some of them will be amused, disappointed, or embarrassed, but no long-term effects on the relationship)
  • Relationships can be broken off at various points, and the player can reject anything that sounds like a confession–the ROs will also have certain “breaking points” where they cannot condone the player’s actions and will break things off
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I’ve been thinking about some stuff like this, myself. Which, uh, isn’t to say that I have any good answers, haha. But I do really like the idea of NPCs being able to take some degree of initiative with the player in the interest of helping make their relationship feel more complex or deep or something. As to the four points, here are my takes and how I have or haven’t done something similar.

-I tried to implement something like the “NPC can approach you, but only if you’ve indicated you’re at all interested first” thing, and so far I’m fairly happy with how it worked out, though it’s still definitely up for improvement. I’ve also seen some works that have a meta question at the beginning, like “Are you okay with ROs expressing interest in you or do you always want to initiate the relationship?”

-I thought about including “sorry, I’m gay/straight/etc” options in both ways, and personally decided against both. I feel like ROs flirting with a PC who isn’t attracted to them would be uncomfortable for many players, and I felt like flirting with ROs that absolutely never will be interested just felt…pointless, but also kind of pushy in an unnecessary way? I do think there’s some merit to it if there’s nothing that establishes their sexual preference already (though that gets complicated with potential meta knowledge like WIP threads and Tumblrs and stuff), and it’s something that may be able to be handled well. I never figured out how to make it work for myself, though, so I ended up not including the option.

-Flirting with multiple ROs before actually entering a relationship with one seems reasonable. I could see this being an actual problem for some characters and not others, but as long as their reactions feel true to their characters then I think it’s all good.

-I also really like the idea of not only being able to break up with an RO if I feel like the relationship is taking a turn I dislike, but also of ROs being able to do the same.

So…all in all, I agree with pretty much all of this. :slight_smile: I’m still working out a lot of stuff as far as how I want these relationships to work, but I feel like I’m thinking along a lot of the same lines.

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Yeah, I did consider not allowing flirtation with characters genderlocked against the player character, but romance isn’t the main feature of my game, and I wanted the relationships among the characters to feel more natural, you know? Sometimes, in real life, we’re attracted to people who will never like us back. I did decide against allowing NPCs to make the same “mistake,” though, because I felt it could come across as annoying or pushy, and I don’t want anyone feeling uncomfortable.

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I’m doing similar things as you are for my IF. I understand that setting reader expectation will be important, as many people don’t want that kind of realism in the media they go to specifically to escape from harsh reality. :broken_heart:
What I’m pushing more than you is perhaps some NPCs will not tell the MC that they can’t reciprocate, but I will try my best to leave the clues in meta or other behavior indications. :sweat_smile: (I expect to upset some readers because of this decision)

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I totally get what you mean with this. I think for me it falls into the meta issue of what the player knows versus what the player character knows - I might be willing to flirt with a guy I don’t know the orientation of, but I would be very uncomfortable flirting with a guy I know is straight, even if PC doesn’t know that.

…but, y’know, just because I wouldn’t pick that option doesn’t mean it’s not an option worth having. So there’s that. :laughing:

I’m super intrigued by this, actually. Again, I think there’s some real merit to NPCs being able to turn you down, and honestly the idea of them just not offering an explanation so I can run off and metagame my way into their heart is interesting to me. And I don’t know if this is quite where you’re going, but I also honestly like the idea of, say, a gay character turning down an opposite gender person without having to list “sorry, I’m gay” to justify themselves. I mean, I can also see how that could be frustrating, but tbh I kind of like that.

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I’m writing some NPCs who are not able to speak their “truth” because of societal/cultural influence, power imbalance (either higher status than MC or lower; kind of like Aisling in Diaspora, but she at least will tell the MC that she must be an equal before she will accept the relationship as valid), and sometimes just lacking the (LGBTQ+ and perhaps other scientific) terminology to explain what they are like, only what doesn’t feel right to them.
A lot of the “drama” in period drama hinge on people not being able to communicate effectively, so it could feel cheap/lazy, but people not being able to communicate effectively really happens. :joy: Maybe it’s kind of a metagame in itself to figure out what the NPC wants to say. :sweat_smile:

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Personally, i like how @Gower did with the two-way interaction in Jolly good , it did rely on MC’s stats but the stat’s are related on the MC’s personality and choice of action, hence the NPC interaction feels realistic because they depend on MC’s personality .

For example , a certain NPC love highly cultural person, hence an MC who dress smartly , talk politely and know how to exchange/receive gifts in couteous manner naturally will be well respond when MC tries to kiss her extend hand, i think it is logic in the sense that all the gestures previously raise the MC culture , to the extend that the NPC trust the MC 's hand kissing is a cultural practice … but if the MC cultural stat is low, NPC simply won’t trust to let her hand kiss by a potential " babarian" ?

However, even with the cultural manner , MC needs to have high intellectual stats so that flirting with the NPC is tolerated, because intellect indicate the choice of words used where NPC won’t think MC is awkward.

Hence i think these small details totally make a two way interaction more believable…

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I’m a bit late to the party but I’m still gonna state my case. Honestly, it’s so strange to me how ROs in a lot of games just… don’t seem to like you? Like, I will really never understand the whole “if the ROs approach me I feel harassed” thing like… LMAO what? That’s such a weird take, man, and I say that as someone with plenty of irl trauma related to such things. I absolutely hate how so many authors feel obligated to pander to this weird mentality because it just makes it seem like the LIs don’t actually like the MC and thus the romance feels incredibly fake and one-sided. If a RO doesn’t show any interest, I’m not interested in romancing them at all. If anything, it just makes the MC look like a creepy harasser who won’t leave the poor, uninterested RO alone. Plus I prefer the shy/reserved flirts as well so having to constantly make my character do the first move feels soooo OOC.

COG romances tend to feel more like a clicker simulator than a romance, hence why I just turn to otomes for my romance needs and play these on the side LOL.

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I agree. I think a lot of this mentality comes from people wanting absolute control over the outcome in CYOA games–and I do understand that. However, I also really like other characters to have agency. I know Alistair’s sacrifice and the end of an Alistair-romance in DA: Origins is something that a lot of people were angry about because they felt it took away their choice in how the story played out, ignoring that the three conditions you needed to meet for him to make that choice (romancing him, not taking Morrigan’s offer, and bringing him to the final battle) are all player-controlled and within character. If it is in-character for an RO to make the first move, then I think that is what should happen. I think both “Wayhaven” (F and M actively pursue a romance) and “Keeper of the Moon and Sun” (all but Yakov and Sera will explicitly ask the MC out) do an excellent job of this.

HOWEVER, if the game is not really a romance game, I also understand why some people might be annoyed at NPCs asking them on dates. Of the two above examples, Wayhaven is an explicitly romantic game, and Keeper gives the player a choice not to engage in romance full stop early in the game. That being said, I think it’s acceptable for ROs to approach the MC first, given that COG/HGs are a safe environment for saying no–a fictional character can literally not hurt you if you reject them. What I really wouldn’t like seeing is an RO initiating flirting and then getting angry if you do anything but reciprocate a la Anders in DA2.

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If a Ro forces their unwanted flirting and harasses me is a game I will automatically close and asking for a refund. It is bad design and a very cruel way ro design games.

I don’t buy these games to feel embarrassed and awkward

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There seem to be a number of different approaches for mechanically representing romance:

  1. The player picks the correct multiple-choice or dialogue options to advance the romance (most VNs, most Bioware RPGs). Sometimes this ends up being a puzzle of picking the correct thing to say, which is… kind of weird imo.
  2. The possibility of romance is based on player stats, in areas not directly related to the relationship (basically, you can mold your PC to the RO’s preference - The Lost Heir, some otome games and dating sims).
  3. Any interactions with the RO increase romance points (basically the easy mode of 1).
  4. The RO is automatically interested in the PC (a number of HGs do this).
  5. The player explicitly makes a choice as to their RO, and that RO is automatically interested in the PC, without complications (Wayhaven Chronicles is the only game I know that does this; it’s basically using an out-of-game magic trick, like the world changing to reflect the player).

I feel like the issue goes beyond just whether the player or NPC makes the first move. Because no matter what you do, you are representing human relationships mechanistically; the NPC will never be as complicated as a real human (AI or mturk notwithstanding). We can try to design systems in a way to avoid toxic romance tropes, but at the end of the day these are still systems; they can never capture the full spectrum of interpersonal relationships. The “mold yourself” approach has the potential to be just as fraught as the “kindness coins” approach. Ultimately, the player still has the control in most games; even if the RO initiates the romance, it’s usually still because of the player’s choices in molding the PC. It’s just another layer of indirection. Unless the RO always asks the PC out regardless of choices…

Anyway I don’t really have an answer here. In my games I prefer to keep the romance mechanics as simple as possible (Pageant used options 3/4), and have basically “accidental” confessions in ordinary moments, but this only worked because my characters have very defined personalities and thus don’t try to account for every player whim in dialogue options. When I play games I dislike picking “flirtatious” options because they always seem a bit unnatural and take me out of the story.

Also please play Creatures Such as We.

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Can’t agree more… Sometimes I found some, well, most bold flirting options, I found them too aggressive to my liking, as a hopeless introvert irl, I had to face palm every time whenever I force myself to pick those bold options, 'cause, well, I wanted to play as a bold character and those shy options were too shy… :pensive:

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Ngl it seems sort of weird to want an NPC to be your passive love doll in every other instance, but then want them to have their own agency too. You pick their gender, their sexuality, often their appearance and other things about their personality…the ROs never feel like real characters, they’re there to cater to the IRL tastes of the player and their entire existence revolves around you and what you want. And that seems to be the preference of the vast majority here. Which is fine and all but you can’t have that and initiative too.

…actually what am I talking about, I guess ‘do you want this character you control every other aspect of to have initiative, since it’s obvious they’re an RO now that you’ve been asked to select their gender’ could be a question you answer when they appear that’s really not that different from most of the others.

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This and also can we talk about the larger issue where, frequently when I play text games (or any game!) there are NPCs that actually try to freakin murder me as well as just being downright rude?!

When that happens I just stare at the game in disbelief and then uninstall it. How did this become acceptable in fiction?

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I actually kinda agree with you. And maybe that is the reason I don’t see many of RO options in these games as people, and more like plot designs to ground the character. And why I want to control any single aspect of that romance and get angry and annoyed with any attempt to force a flirt from them.

However, in games with strongly fixed romances I like, I don’t bother if the character after I show my interest propose dates or a relationship; even if I prefer being the dominant force. The reason is I see those characters well crafted as people, not as plot device npcs.

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It was funny, Zevran in DA1 would get all pissy with you as well if you rejected his advances. Sort of realistic in both cases though.

In general though Bioware is/was pretty terrible with “romances”

As for the topic, it’s certainly possible to make an NPC more “aggressive” in the romance department and it not be too harassing. I’ve certainly managed to write a few characters like that. There’s at least one girl in Rogues that makes it fairly obvious how she feels about you a few times, but doesn’t bring it up constantly. Eventually you can get with her or not, but it’s still in your hands.

You just have to do it so it still feels natural.

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Always I can sent her to flirt with her hand, I see it alright. What I don’t like is when the writer forces me to like and blush after npc’s advances, that is infuriating.

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Fair, I basically just avoid the romance options entirely in these unless they seem written especially well, and I’d get annoyed if the game kept trying to force the author’s favorite character down my throat even after I said no thanks.

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I like when this happens. Both books of Wayhaven has characters coming after you. One of the most popular game out there. I wouldn’t want it to be all gummy bears and sweet sunshine all the time :slight_smile:

To me it’s just strange sometimes that I go halfway through a game and hear nothing from an NPC who is apparently in love with me. I go through hell, almost dying, limbs cut off, etc etc and not a single word from my RO. But even if things aren’t crazy around my MC, it’d be nice to see the RO cares. I’m not a control freak, I don’t want to be desperately controlling every aspect of everything, I prefer a healthy relationship. It’s my own opinion of course.

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Wait, wait, wait. Can someone please explain to me how the hell we went from ROs showing interest to sexual harassment. Surely you can all agree that that’s not the same thing, or else some people in this thread really need to let me know why the MC sexually harassing characters is a-okay but not the other way around.

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