Losing Interest in WIPS

[Eiwynn]

@Sheitenlauffen

I have no idea how does one aquire “experience and ability” in saying that he doesn’t like something??

Writing in non-vulgar English in feedback posts is a start … so is not trolling.

@Sheitenlauffen

Why is someone saying" the plot is cliche" a lack of experience and talent? What lack of godly gifts would someone be so horrendously cursed with so that his comment would be “offensive” ?

Saying the plot is cliche is a statement of opinion and worse, it is non-actionable feedback … how you provide feedback and the context it is given in makes all the difference. For example:

When providing feedback, saying “this shit” when referring to someone’s work, using cuss words and expressing a desire to lead Aryans and Nazis in your feedback on a story about how the Nazis are evil is offensive.

I suggest you and any others unclear on what is and isn’t offensive, to read the FAQ:

https://forum.choiceofgames.com/faq

[poison_mara]

I cannot understand why some people use those terms in feedback. That is not responsible and certainly is not a way to release a better game to the market at all.

Being sincere doesn’t mean being insulting. And certainly all feedback on anything has to not be demanding it is author game not yours. And Authors will is law.

Also I really think it should include alternative ways to develop that part you don’t like. For instance, I feel traoped in X scene as the options don’t reflect my relationship with That Npc I would like X alternative choices here.

[Eiwynn]

@Schliemannsghost

The key principle, I think, is responsible honesty.

This unites @poison_mara and @Schliemannsghost … it is a good principle to follow when looking at feedback – either as a tester or an author.

[Shyranno]

I’d just like to chime in in saying that if I were writing a game, and a reader found themselves losing interest partway when there was sustained interest before, I definitely, definitely would want to know why.

Writers are sometimes too close to the project to be able to view it objectively–the project’s our baby! Our passion! We can see so clearly how it plays out in our heads! And sometimes that means forgetting that others can’t, and that what you’re writing might not always be perfectly reflective of your ideas… And also that making a game you want to publish means you’re not only writing for yourself, but for others, the players, too.

So feedback like that is quite important! But like the others have said above, should prooobably be tempered with a considerate tone, lest people think you’re just there to be insulting for the sake of being insulting.

One thing I love about the forums is the community aspect, especially when it comes to giving feedbacks to authors, both new and old. People are giving up their precious time to make other people feel with their games, and people are, in return, taking their own valuable time to share their views in hopes of helping the author to make the story the best version it can possibly be. What a magical exchange!

[Szaal]

I suppose there’re times when you feel bored or simply dislike WIP.

The way I treat WIP is pretty much the same as I would published games. If it interests me, I read it. Sometimes, there are no other WIP left to read so I venture to ones that are not quite in my favorite genre (hint: fantasy adventure) which, admittedly, rarely grab my attention so I move on when I’m done. However, if I have specific feedback that is generally useful (pacing, critical grammar, tips tricks), I drop a comment about it in the thread. If the author or anyone addresses it, I engage it from there.

But as an author, I beg you pleaseeee drop a comment even if it sounded to you like a harsh criticism that can upset me. Being criticized will always upset the receiving person; that can’t be helped, but there’ll always be something to glean beneath it. Working on a project too long makes your eyes tunnel vision and it helps to have a second or more pairs of eyes looking at the project from different directions.

[SamsonJBodney]

As long as you have feedback, I’d personally want to hear it. If you don’t know why you’re losing interest, and all you’d be able to say is “I’ve lost interest,” then I don’t think that’d be too helpful to the author. Though I guess if enough people all said that, they’d at least know there may be some kind of issue with the story.

If the reason you’re losing interest in the story is something clearly fundamental to the story, in other words, something the author obviously can’t change without altering the whole book. Then there’s probably no need for you to say anything. As your criticism would boil down to “I don’t like the genre/plot/ect.”

Since the broader topic of giving feedback was touched on by some people, I’d like to give my thoughts on that.

I feel like people who give negative feedback can sometimes look like they think they’re the victims of a raging author or defensive readers. I’ve honestly rarely seen negative feedback draw much ire, especially not on writing related forums. Yes, it does happen, but often (in my experience), it seems like the reviewer, ironically enough, is the one who’s upset when the author and/or other readers disagree with their criticism, and try to explain why they don’t agree with it.

I’ve personally witnessed several people who give negative criticism be offended by the author disagreeing with them and leaving with the thought that the author is too defensive or can’t take criticism. When, usually, they can probably handle it better than you think.

Now yes, sometimes authors, especially young/newer ones, can be a bit too defensive at first. It can hurt when you’re already self-conscious about your work and someone says they don’t like it. Especially if they’re harsh about it. But frankly, I think that’s all the more reason to give them sincere negative feedback, when warranted. It’s all a part of growing.

But on the flip side, negative commenters should realize that the author has every right to disagree with them and explain why they don’t. And if the commenter is harsh or blunt, the author has every right to be the same in their response.

Emotions can run high sometimes, and the internet can make it hard to determine whether someone’s being honest or rude. So, my unsolicited and un-sought for advice is just to give any feedback you think will be useful to the writer, knowing they may disagree and respond, trying to explain why they made the decisions they did.

And this post turned out to be a lot longer than I was expecting.

[EvilChani]

@Shyranno

Writers are sometimes too close to the project to be able to view it objectively–the project’s our baby! Our passion! We can see so clearly how it plays out in our heads! And sometimes that means forgetting that other’s can’t , and that what you’re writing might not always be perfectly reflective of your ideas…

As someone who writes, as well as reads, I can attest to this. I just love it when I write something, thinking it’s so obvious only to be told that no one knew what was going on. It’s easy to forget that readers can’t read our minds and our attempts at subtle plot twists or hints might be so subtle that no one catches them and is unpleasantly surprised later.

@Shyranno

And also that making a game you want to publish means you’re not only writing for yourself , but for others, the players, too.

This is something that is a fine line, I think. I’ve been around here a while now, and have seen both sides of this point to the extreme: readers who think they’re entitled to have what they want in a game (and hey, I’ve suffered from this, too) and authors who are surprised when few people want to play their game that is clearly targeted to a very narrow audience and have no interest in changing anything to draw more interest. Ultimately, it’s the author’s story to tell–they know their worlds and their characters better than anyone–and up to the reader to decide whether or not it’s something they want to spend time playing. Honestly, my biggest problem is when I feel like a victim of false advertising. In other words, the author describes the game and characters one way and, once I play it, I see that description is flat out untrue or, at the very least, in discord with what the game (or characters) gives me.

@Shyranno

What a magical exchange!

Agreed.

@Szaal

If it interests me, I read it.

Ditto. And when it stops interesting me, I stop reading it. Unfortunately, I have very particular tastes. That said, I’ve found a couple of gems by listening to others, like Breach: TAJ, and I still owe @Eiwynn for pointing me in the direction of I, the Forgotten One–these are games I probably wouldn’t have tried otherwise.

@Szaal

However, if I have specific feedback that is generally useful (pacing, critical grammar, tips tricks), I drop a comment about it in the thread. If the author or anyone addresses it, I engage it from there.

I usually don’t bother with grammar unless I see egregious errors or if no one else points out the problems first. I don’t mention pacing unless I like it enough to keep playing and find the pacing way too slow or fast to digest the story. Usually, I like for there to be enough chapters done on it before I start really offering my opinion (unless there’s enough to go on other than general thoughts on the story).

@Szaal

Working on a project too long makes your eyes tunnel vision and it helps to have a second or more pairs of eyes looking at the project from different directions.

It does. And I know some people like to have an echo chamber, where all they hear is that everything is great and perfect, but I don’t think that always helps. It’s possible to both love a creation and be able to see where some flaws or problems exist. The biggest problems with that are voicing it in a way that the author will hear (and not get offended) and the author using it to improve their story (which means admitting that it’s not perfect, and that’s not always easy for some people to do). Finally, I think it’s difficult to sort through everything when there are so many posts on a work. It gets to a point where the author doesn’t bother reading the discussion board and only listens to the people cheering them on and complimenting them. Not sure how to solve that one, though.

[Bacondoneright]

Got tagged in this thread, so I might as well input my two cents.

Personally, I see no point in not being open to criticism. What’s the point in not? Sparing your pride? If someone says they’ve lost interest, then… oh well. Getting pissed at them over the internet isn’t going to change anything. If they offer a reason, perhaps look into it, unless changing it destroys your fundamental vision of your story.

For example, my own taste in books is more niche on this forum. I’m not a fan of romance, and as such, probably won’t read too many romance focused novels. But, if an author is writing a romance story, I’m not going to demand they alter their plot to fit my own taste. Everyone has their vision for their own work, and readers should respect this. You will never, ever write something that will appeal to everyone and every reader. Ever.

Also importantly, people are not their work. If you get criticized, then… what? You’re not lesser of a person. It’s really, really, not that big of a deal. If you don’t believe that the criticism would fit well with your story, then don’t implement it. It’s not a personal attack on you. There’s no point in getting angry.

Positive feedback feels great. It’s an amazing feeling, watching as people interact with your work. It can seriously motivate you to work harder. I’ve literally said to myself, “Alright, insert username here, I’m gonna write 1000 words because you motivated me.”

But it’s never good to let it get to your head. “Remember, Caesar thou art mortal.” Your work will literally never be perfect. Hiding in a bubble of “no criticism allowed,” getting high off of the praise and blowing everyone else off is only going to make your work suffer. My vision and plot direction has shifted quite a lot with both the criticism and praise I received. Had I stuck with my very original vision without any altering, well, it would have been much, much worse.

I guess the key to criticism is emotional intelligence. When you provide it to someone, don’t… be a dick. It’s really not that hard. Be polite. And when you receive it, accept it, analyze it, and then make a decision. If you believe it would be good to implement, then do so. If it doesn’t, then don’t. Then, move on with your day.

TL:DR Be nice to each other, damn it.

[Shai_Manahan]

@EvilChani

The biggest problems with that are voicing it in a way that the author will hear (and not get offended) and the author using it to improve their story (which means admitting that it’s not perfect, and that’s not always easy for some people to do).

I think this comes with an author’s experience. This is my first time writing my WIP for an IF and I’m still young, but I’ve had some experiences in writing film scripts. I barely listened to criticisms during my first film attempt, and I had to learn the hard way that you really should listen. I’m glad it happened to me, though. Those were awkward but valuable times.

Writers always have the responsibility to listen, at least if they’re aiming to be successful in the industry.

[EvilChani]

@Shai_Manahan

Writers always have the responsibility to listen, at least if they’re aiming to be successful in the industry.

I think CoG/HG/HC is both a blessing and a curse in this. One problem I’ve found with book publishers, in general, is that they like formulaic stories that adhere to whatever the current trend may be (I’m looking at you, Tor), and that means they want to come in and muck with your story to make it fit the list of the day. That’s the best way to kill creativity, in my opinion. It’s the stuff that’s different that can turn out to be the most interesting (someone above mentioned “cliche plots” but the thing is, most stories have been done–it’s how you do them and the characters you use that makes the huge difference).

CoG/HG/HC break this cycle. Yes, there are rules for doing a CoG or HC game–and you must fill certain squares–but they let people tell the stories they want inside of this. From what I can tell, they keep a close watch on the story as they develop it and ensure that there’s enough input for it to get varying views. HG seems to be even freer in this respect, because there aren’t many requirements at all (from what I can tell).

The thing is, when you have this much freedom in telling your story, then genuine and varying feedback is even more crucial. There is so much that feedback can give you in a forum like this. No, you may not heed it all because, at the end of the day, the story is yours, but hearing different takes on it may spark something in your mind that makes you see a better way to do things. Or make you realize that you were god-modinig your characters and not letting them behave as they should. As someone struggling to find beta readers for a novel that can offer something more than “I don’t like this comma here” or “Why are the characters talking about characters we never meet???” I can tell you that what this place offers is priceless. It’s just a matter of knowing how to use it.

So yeah, you’re completely right. Writers have to learn to listen. They also need to learn when to take advice and when to ignore it. Sometimes the things we think may screw up the worlds we create actually turn out making them better. And visa versa.

[Vexius_Krexius]

I personally feel this topic is less black and white than many on here seem to think.

Yes, the Forum has rules. And they should be followed. Being on here is a privilege, not a right, and given to us by the entities that own, pay for, and run it. Therefore, this privilege can be revoked from anyone at anytime. This is the most basic fundamental of both this digital space and the situation we are discussing here within it.

However, as we are all aware, we are each human beings of vast and complex consciousness. Not everyone gets offended by the same things, and everyone that does get offended is so at varying degrees. Another basic fundamental.

That’s where the answers lie, though. Take this example: someone has a strong response to the death of a character in a WiP. Their responses are emotional regarding the situation but no foul language or reasonably clear ill thoughts are ever presented. Given just this context, is this person giving actionable and usable feedback?

Some would say they are whining, complaining, overreacting, et cetera. But say I’m the author. I personally would find this extremely valuable and interesting. I clearly wrote that character in such a way that someone resonated measurably strongly with. That should count as a type of positive feedback, no?

Now, you might say well if I was the author I would feel offended or frustrated because I obviously wanted that character to die, or felt they needed to, and this person just wants to focus on that aspect and not offer anything else.

Well is a focused kind of feedback necessarily negative? Especially if multiple readers join in. I might consider bringing that character back, both for business reasons, as a lot of people are clearly attached to and heavily enjoy them, and because maybe I can simply make it just another choice to make, or series of choices, thus expanding my game and appeasing this strong side of my playerbase, which will keep them invested instead of risking losing some over not wanting to reconsider a single desicion I made writing.

Now, if the call for the character’s return becomes toxic or overtly emotional, an author should obviously consider shutting that down in a mature, reasonable way. This is a given.

No, an author is never bound to listening to any feedback, no matter how actionable and agreed upon. It is their story. Unless it breaks the rules, no one should argue this.

But I think I have made my point. In conclusion, there can be reason to be heavily involved in a story. And to listen to emotional feedback, which can be actionable. However, at the end of this, it is always the author’s story and they can choose to accept/ignore any response, even if actionable. I don’t believe anyone here has disagreed on that, but that’s where I feel the answer to this lies: in not easily disregarding player feedback (if there isn’t any foul language and obvious disrespect present). If it appears, actionable, read it. Consider it. But as a reader, if the author disagrees, accept it. Don’t fight for any sort of change, no matter what it is. Supporting a change is one thing, but if you’re blatantly and repeatedly calling for anything, no matter what it is, that’s where the line should be drawn. It’s not your story when you’re here in reality.

This should all be simple enough to comprehend, but unfortunately, emotions have the tendency to break through regarding fiction. Such is the power of it. A beauty to behold, but an ugly truth to accept.

[malinryden]

I am just going to touch on something very briefly (I lied, I can’t be brief) that I don’t think that’s been brought up yet:

It’s okay to lose interest.

So much of online life is built around this fan culture, where it seems people are only allowed to have three settings: Love something, hate something, or not caring about it. If you get interested in something, you are expected to stay interested in it, and if you’re not, to find reasons why the book/show/game let you down and what it could have done differently to keep your interest, possibly moving to hate it. In a finished work, that is one thing, but in a WIP that can be dangerous.

All WIP’s move at different paces. People go back, rewrite, add scenes, shuffle them, removes options, adds new ones… everything changes, and the very nature of the WIP means that often changes are done before people can see the goal of them down the road. And, sometimes that road is leading somewhere they didn’t imagine and didn’t enjoy. It is perfectly alright to just shrug, put a pin in it and move on. Maybe check back in a year. Maybe wait for the released game. Losing interest doesn’t have to be a dealbreaker, the WIP might just be in a spot you don’t particularly enjoy. Or, maybe you are in a spot where this is not what you want to read.

There have been many WIP’s where I have lost interest. Mostly due to lack of time on my end, or slow updates on theirs. But, the names are still in the back of my head, and if they come out, I will still be more likely to check them up than an unknown title. There is no moral obligation to figure out why or tell the author why you’re gone. In some cases, unless you know what you’re doing, it might even be a bad idea to do so.

@Eiwynn said it best as always:

Unfortunately, both authors and readers lack the skills and/or experience in running pre-publication testing and therefore, often things go off the rails.

Criticism is hard. Figuring out why you don’t like something is hard. Most people lack the language for it. I tend to focus less on HOW it makes me feel, and more on WHY it makes me feel that way. I also tries to stay away from “I want to”, “Why don’t you”, and “Why did you”. The first one can very easily lead to entitlement, and the second two comes off as assuming that the author had no reasons for their decisions, and can derail the discussion into trying to argue with the author that their reasons were wrong.

As an author, the best kind of criticism I receive is one that points out a thing that bothered/made the reader feel bad/bored/annoyed and why. Don’t tell the author how to solve it, just present it. You don’t know how to fix it, because you don’t know the intentions and the rest of the game (unless you’re a really good tester, and wow am I grateful for them).

I have got so many comments/messages with criticism which made me realize that what I thought I was writing, came across as very different from how I intended it to be received. That is the major problem as an author, I know all the answers and facts, the reader does not, and it is my job to make sure that they get the experience I intend for them.

To paraphrase one of the private comments that helped me pinpoint an issue I had completely missed: “When xxx did yyy it really came off as zzz and that made me uncomfortable, was that intended?” In this case, it really wasn’t, and I quickly adjusted the scene because it gave completely the wrong impression. However, it might also have been intended to get the reader uncomfortable, and in that case, I could have replied and said that yes, xxx is a creep, that is intended. If I had got a comment like “I’m really creeped out by xxx, I want my character to be able to avoid them,” I wouldn’t have had any idea of why and what to change/fix. Or, even worse, “I hate xxx, cut the stupid character.”

So just take that extra moment to try to pinpoint what it is that makes you feel something. And if you can’t, it’s perfectly alright to just walk away and see if things resolves themselves without you.

[Jose_Garcia]

One of my longtime playtesters mentioned that they were bored recently and gave an inkling as to why. It was the best thing they could have said to me.

I’ve been really inspired and I’ve had one of my best weeks of writing ever. I’m energized, enthusiastic, having lots of fun, writing loads of new romance scenes. I’m reconnecting to the best aspects of my wip. All because somebody told me that they were bored.

Tell the writer that you’re bored. Tell them where you get bored. Don’t tell them what to do about it.

You’ll be doing them a massive favour.

[Sam_Ursu]

I’m a tell you right now, after me spending 100+ hours all alone, lost in my imaginary world writing the darn story, I definitely love hearing what someone else has to say about it.

Absolutely great comments in this thread - every new writer should bookmark it

[Mistyleaf123]

I think that the players should, if they get bored, tell the author why they got bored and maybe even where. Don’t just say “Oh your game sucks, no one likes it, the characters suck, blah blah blah.” There is a point where advice turns into forcing the author to change or add something, though- which the reader should avoid. If the reader wanted something that bad- why don’t go write your own story then?

[Rayquaza]

think it depends a lot on what you didn’t like. If you just didn’t like the style of the game or the ideas the author had, maybe you should just stop following it. However, if you think the author is focusing too much on writing and forgetting the gameplay or if you think the author could do something in a better way and want to give some advice on that or If you think the author is acting in a way that they shouldn’t be acting when the Wip is not even completed, Yeah, you should comment, but in a polite way that shows the author that you just want to help.

[strxm]

I can only speak for myself of course, but in my case I wouldn’t mind knowing what made you lose interest. Chances are it’s not just one person who lost interest after all!
So it would certainly be beneficial in my case to get any sort of feedback.