I don’t think there really is a way to make it even, regardless of which route you choose for the Marshal. Not without a time machine.
The snark also comes out more the better she knows the Marshal, I thought. Like, she can tell when the Marshal’s being sassy and when they’re Envymaxxing.
Envymaxxing is such a funny way to put it, oh my god. Sure, I can’t speak to other routes/possibilities since I have no interest in playing them, but I think I enjoy Ellie mirroring the Marshall: the scene where she says “there are parts of you worth imitating”, I have no idea if Ellie already suspects how bad your head was/is, but I think at this point in this route (as it was already kinda shown too) she should be more assertive against doom-and-gloom Marshall the closer you get.
And the blood scene, “wine!”. If anything, that’s where I’d go to tweak Ellie in the Royalist route. Make the blood scene a real talk about the bastard status and how her understanding of the situation has grown, like, make her ask about the Marshall’s mother, the real mother, just for funsies. #happymemories (specially since it was set up in the prologue and you have been dreaming about it anyway)
There’s only a single new scene, though. I disagree that the problem with chapter one is pacing; I think the bigger issue is the “vignette-ness” of the chapter. Time needs to pass for the plot to keep moving, since there’s a lot of dead time in a medieval march, which can lead to weak connective tissue. It’s just one scene after another, with the connection being “three days later” or whatever.
Whiskey-Four doesn’t have this problem, since each scene moves directly into the next, but just how the plot of ITFO is structured, time skips are essential. Chapter One has a critical lack of connective tissue, since there’s no overall goal other than waiting for the army to get ready. But I think it’s in a good enough state to move on from and I can go back to it later.
@Snowflower pointed that out to me earlier. Had an awful brainfart and implemented the ambush avoidance route and didn’t think about the fact I needed to change scenes later to account for it 
Hmmm, it’s the doomaxxing graveyard scene plus the dinner scene in the midst of the court, no? Both of them are interesting, but, maybe it’s an effect of having read it without them before — they kind of bloat it more. The dinner scene in particular I thought it was quite pointless. Ah, there’s also the speach writing scene which I thought cute albeit also kinda ?
I agree, but how to avoid that? Hm, idk. Starting the chapter later doesn’t work for your purposes. I’d argue you need more trivial scenes, or just choose to act out the important days pre-start of war. I don’t think it’s impossible to do what you want to do, but I’m not a good enough writer to ascertain how to solve exactly that. I feel something is very… boring and stale? reading through it.
Oddly enough, I find that the spontaneity fit really well to the point I thought it was all quite planned. Marshal was not in a great place mentally so the narrative being more erratic/unplanned in a way reflects that really well. I get that lack of a set arc can be hard writing-wise right now though lol
You’re entitled to your opinion, and I appreciate your mad ramblings! Not at all just because they agree with mine 
I do though perceive this very similarly, it’s not just you.
I love that last part! Though I would also like to see implemented a version where Elya realizes that might be going behind the Marshal’s back and making decisions for them [cough] no one would ever do that right [cough] without their input.
I wonder if a new ‘closeness’ metric would be good for some of the hoped-for routes this book.
Oh, they absolutely aren’t a good candidate. But monarchies be like that, hey? That’s the entire reason Elya was supposed to be on the throne – they jumped the line of succession for the other candidate because he was just that bad, and I don’t see anyone else around here. When the scene of Elya not wanting the throne happened in book 1, my reaction was “Uh. Uh, I guess? I mean; I’m trained… some. I could. do that.” given I was expecting to play as some person on a battlefield mostly, not handle kingdom management – that wasn’t where I thought the game was going. But I would have pressed the choice if it was on the list.
Mainly, I think the Marshal – given their reputation for being amazing at all things battle – is best being in command through this war crises, as probably nobody who could be called up is going to be as competent at leading this particular scenario. I’d be okay with Elya letting us make all those decisions, but she’s still going to be in the line of fire (please don’t) and still need to look like she’s in command to the average observer, and the chain of command has potential to get very muddled.
I think every Marshal I’ve played would realize they don’t actually want to sit the throne once they get there if they didn’t already know that going in; I like playing the soldier-minded Marshal. Krorid is my home. 
Have to agree; there’s quite a lot of inconsistency with Elya’s characterization I’ve been picking up on. It makes playing the Loyalist route a bit of a struggle for me, even though that one’s probably my character’s ideal path. (The Usurper sure does have a lot of valid things to say though; the other versions tend to just sound petty. Marshal: own the trauma. It wasn’t okay. Elya; look at your supposedly-beloved sibling and stop telling yourself the things your family did to them was okay.)
Preach. You don’t mutilate an innocent child, never mind one who loves and trusts and relies on you. That’s straight-up Evil. Sobik was bad, even Elya acknowledges; but Mira’s even more the Marshal’s Sobik than Sobik ever was. War at such a young age may have scarred the Marshal irreparably in more ways than one, but the worst wounds were inflicted at the ripe old age of seven. You never truly get over your childhood trauma, no matter how aware you are that damage is there… lurking. That’s a war you’re always fighting lest you leave the watchtowers unmanned.
That was a really nice touch; I think there should be more moments to that effect because it surely has to be obvious to anyone who spends reasonable time with the Marshal what an absolute wreck they are up there. And she does seem to idealize you if you make an effort, so how I try to play is “here sister, take the lessons I had to learn the hard way – and be better than me.” Elya’s a good person, even if she is a bit spoiled. [shrugs] She’s royal; what’re you gonna do. She has to face the real world now, I guess.
For sure. There’s kind of a baseline tone of insincerity to the character interactions, and it really makes the ones which are meant to have great emotional potential fall far short of the landing zone. That one, I think, landed on its face.
Problem with the depth of character interactions and the lack of ‘genuinity’. The game has assigned you ‘friends’ and you’re just supposed to make up their affection for you in your own head because it told you to, not because it’s present on the page.
Reason why I said she wouldn’t give the Marshal a choice, is that she (and most of the world, including most dishonored people) could not fathom the Marshal saying no to being restored to the succession (second in line, to be exact), being free to marry and inherit, and generally no longer being treated as a dishonored bastard. It’s like saying no to $10 million and a self-sufficient talking unicorn.
That would be a fourth Elya development axis, unless negative Envy gets shifted into Closeness. It’s ultimately up to Bacon.
Talking dinosaur for you, I think. Replace “talking unicorn” with fictional/extinct creature you want to have around.
[howls] 
True that; just musing on the how-tos. I believe you have to possess a certain amount of Envy in the bank to even get on the Usurper route; but I can still love my sibling even if I think they’re a spoiled brat who needs to grow up, and learn to critically consider the people around them.
You can see a person’s flaws, and even find them hard to deal with personally, and still want to support them in their growth and in overcoming those. It doesn’t have to be an antagonistic relationship if both people are willing to listen to and respect one another. Some of my best friends I disagree with vehemently
Adding a fourth stat to track would be a bitch to write, imo. I’ve been thinking… in a way, a high-leadership Ellie being super duper angry fits well with the stages of grief, she is in her anger stage still for all that went down on Book 1 (she is also a stupid teen!). It just occurred to me how angry and unable to forgive Ellie is being written, when as a royalist you kind of have to have a Marshall who isn’t super vengeful, or else they’d have gone down other routes.
You could say you’re doing royalist for love, but only because your love for Ellie supersedes your anger at what’s been done to you, lol. I wonder what she’d choose if she were in the Marshal’s shoes?
Look, horses are fun as long as you aren’t the one who’s got to shovel their shit. Just ask Heracles. Doesn’t really make the difference if the shit is rainbow-colored.
Self-sufficient means it’s housetrained or otherwise figured it out.
House trained just means they will shit in a designated box/spot rather than all over your carpet, but you still need to empty that box, they won’t do it themselves.
I agree in reference to Darin, but not the rest of the cast. With Milon, Lada, Obren, and Velinor there’s not much to change. Darin needs tweaking 100%. Elya, too, but on reading it over again, I feel more positive on her characterization than I did before.
I don’t think I agree. There is chemistry between the Marshal and most of the cast, but I think it’s fumbled particularly in reference to Darin. But I think the connection between Obren and the MC is clear. Milon’s characterization is strong, Lada’s is, too. That’s most of the recurring cast. Elya has issues with her varying strength, but I think the connection between her and the MC is demonstrated, rather than stated; its greatest weakness is in its backstory, as the narrative says you used to be friends even when you were younger, but it’s never fully elaborated on.
Maybe another flashback with her that highlights their friendship? For all Marshals?
And then a present day scene that mirrors it, for loyalists?
At the end of the day, it’s your work and your choice; we’re just here to provide player feedback in your feedback thread 
I can agree with that, and I think some playable flashback sections with the Marshal’s siblings might be enjoyable if you wanted to take that on.
You have a gift for putting into words the things I’m picking up on subconsciously. Yes; that’s what I as a player find so dissatisfying (hypocritical) about this route – I shouldn’t have to not be angry in order to be loyal. Being loyal despite your anger is a more meaningful decision to have made.
Is she ever If anybody tells me they’re putting a teenager straight on the throne, absent context, I get immediate nightmare images of how that’s likely to play out. I remember being an angry teen; Kanton thinks it’s a good idea to put that up in the position of ultimate power and responsibility, while she’s emotionally compromised and her brain is in the process of rewiring?
Elya isn’t willing to forgive people who literally stabbed her in the back and tried to sell her to her enemies in exchange for power, or threw her in jail so they could rule instead. And frankly, she’s fully justified in this (not to mention, if she’s at high warmth she actually gives even Verdan a chance eventually) Meanwhile, Marshal’s any excuse of vengeance is absolutely empty when it’s aimed at the one person who never did them any wrong. And even the game recognizes this, explicitly associating that action of the Marshal with jealousy.
These are two completely different situations.
You can be vengeful though, you can be bitter, you can be pissed off, you can be jealous, and still be loyal to her. And that part really isn’t covered well yes.
What is known about the wider world? I know there are mentions of the Holy Father and something similar to the papal states but is there anything in detail?
Hmm. It could be as simple as If (Envy < thresh AND Warmth > thresh) OR ‘closeness’ > threshold *set the relationship between Ellie and the Marshal as close even if she is powerful and cynical: display behavior-driven events accordingly – but what do I know; I code more than I write, maybe it’s a right pain in the rear to combine.
I suppose I think it’s a bit ridiculous to hold the same anger for somebody who was a threat to your life and tried to sell you to a rapist, and somebody who ‘took something you wanted’ (that was actually ‘rightfully’ supposed to be Vedran’s). And I have my own issues with throwing Elya in a cell.
Agree to disagree on ‘any excuse of vengeance,’ at whom it’s aimed, or explicit jealousy; all I know is Book 1 dumped a number of Envy points on me due to my own somewhat aloof nature (which made the other option seem rather alien), and that was a head-scratcher.
Bacon has made it very clear that I, The Forgotten has a set character-story focus around the Marshal handling (or failing to do so well) their trauma (which is explicitly given a backstory so dark it canonically broke their mind); and signaled that you are going to deal with characters who literally try to backstab, and ones who personally maimed your character and attempted to have them killed in an utterly horrifying way before they reached adulthood based on little more than how another character treated them, and be expected to interact with and possibly even forgive those.
Bacon wants you to know where Mira came from with her actions, disproportionate as they were (it’s understandable for her to be upset about her husband’s cheating and bringing the resulting bastard into her house; one where she probably personally would not make the choice to be) – he also wants it to be very clear that even without a drunken state in the picture, this character wanted yours (from a helpless child and beyond) to suffer.
Whether or not the anger is rationally directed, I personally think any Marshal has a right to its existence and is unlikely not to experience it. It’s very easy to make judgements on where emotions should be pointed, what kind, and maybe even how to handle them healthily, from outside the situation; but I think the point Bacon is getting at is the Marshal is not healthy (for very good reason), and all these characters are inside their own. Vedran’s not going to suddenly feel worthy or competent or loved if he succeeds at completely destroying his sister – all he knows is he has some pent-up feelings that he can’t avoid, and she’s standing in the way of what he thinks might get him what he needs.
And that’s the story that Bacon wrote, no matter what your character is doing on the sidelines.
As far as testing goes, I always try to do so in the spirit of what the author has as the vision for their game. So if some paths I test make some deliberately bad choices? I need to consider what the motivation to choose them would be – it is after all a Choice game. I can’t test everything - I’m only one person - but I try to do so pretty extensively. I’m going to run some routes I would personally never pick, and I’m going to do so from the mindset of ‘not doing bad stuff for the sake of doing bad.’ The main thing is that those choices should be made deliberately; not required of the player and given no choice in the matter. However you choose to handle her, probably none of us wants to be the next Mira.