How would you feel about an abusive RO?

[GenecoInheritor]

To write an abusive RO would take Alot of work to get them right. I mean in fiction abusers are always so patently obvious it’s like seeing a door with a knife wielding murderer behind it and a billion other doors and saying" let’s go to the knife wielding door" while the audience screams “Are you a fucking idiot?!”

Now I think it’d be interesting since I only play lesbians or asexuals to see how that plays out. And my characters are extremely impressionable

Max Caulfield from Life is Strange reunited with Chloe. Max was a great student and perfectly behaviled but soon as Chloe showed up she was claiming drugs were hers, stealing from the school handicap fund, breaking and entering, etc. Whatever Chloe wanted she got. On a non romantic note in The Walking Dead I always supported Clementine . Even though I was the adult and she was the kid and later I’d have to choose between her and family. So if the abuser didn’t have red flags that I’d notice I could get into seeing it play out.

[MultipleChoice]

That’s a very well-thought out response, @Eiwynn! Thank you for the read.

I can see where my own perspective comes from: I see the interactive fiction we make here much more as novels than as games. In novels, terrible things can happen and we the readers naturally roll with it. We’re on the novelist’s emotional roller coaster and we don’t expect to be in control of the ride. If we don’t like it, we don’t tell the author to change what’s printed–we put the book down.

But with interactive fiction, many readers would be accustomed to having a choice or a way out. For an IF writer, even killing off a character for narrative purposes can be very difficult! And because everyone has different tolerances, sensitivities and personal experiences, writing about subjects such as abuse is extremely hard.

@Eiwynn

This is a topic that I would urge most not to attempt. Quite frankly most of us are not trained or have the experience to write about this topic both successfully and responsibly. When you explore a topic as a writer, you have a moral responsibility to your readers not to become an enabler.

@Eiwynn

Most writers will not have the expertise or experience in doing this on their own so they would need to get an advisor or two. Not only that but I would urge any writer thinking of doing this to find a good mix of testers because thoroughly testing and fine tuning the game will be essential.

I think this is where we have a fundamental difference of opinion on writing. I believe that the writer has no responsibility to anyone. I believe you cannot write with a council of experts at your back any more than you can write with the morals and perspective of every reader who will look at your words. If it’s not true inside your head then its not right and its not good. Maybe its factually incorrect or outrageous, but it has to come from your head and nobody else’s.

And just as the writer has no responsibility, neither does the reader. No one has to sit down and read stuff that makes them uncomfortable. I think this mutual lack of responsibility is the best relationship to have with readers. It’s never fun to lose readers, but a writer has to be willing to. Otherwise you’re writing with fear and you aren’t going to win anyone over.

We all know that CoG places a great focus on a series of moral positions and inclusiveness, particularly for minority communities such as LGBT. I fully support this for the official label, and I think its served as a great source of exposure over the years. That and the gameplay standards that are required give you good idea of what to expect with any CoG title. That’s ideal for your primary product line.

As for Hosted Games, I would love a future where it is seen as a bookstore. There’s so many of us authors with unique styles and perspectives, each writing in all manner of genres. These titles have their own audiences, and aren’t always fit for mass appeal. It’s wild and wonderful, and if you pick up a book it might just blow your mind. Or you might take one look, find it repulsing, and put it back where it belongs.

I hope I clarified my perspective on writers and responsibility!

[rinari]

Out of curiosity, @TrashyLollipops, is this something you’re considering for serious attempt or were you just curious on the community’s feelings about it hypothetically? I’m just curious and agree with what others have said that craving an unconventional or not “picture-perfect” romance tends to be very different from considering writing an abusive romance.

In general, I can see more of the merits of writing from the perspective of an abused character, but it would require so much delicacy and nuance that I would flinch from the idea of an inexperienced writer doing it. (Incidentally, I have strong feelings about 13 Reasons Why and insensitivity towards triggering material and would liken it to that.) However, I can only see writing from the perspective of an abused person as having an educational purpose: showing how someone could end up in this situation, what warning signs to look out for, what the perspective of someone in that relationship could be like. And in my opinion, that alone does not make for a compelling story. It’s more like an exercise or a lesson than it is a compelling plot on its own. (Again, this is only my opinion.)

I would personally despise the idea of playing the abuser in a relationship and being forced to (by the plot and game) abuse someone else. This I don’t see the potential educational merits of as much: playing from the perspective of someone generally invites empathy and understanding, as you want them to succeed (as “they” are “you”), and as you necessarily need to “put yourself in their shoes” or understand why they are the way they are. And I feel like that treads far too closely to sympathizing or condoning the actions of abusers. (Does anyone remember the Reddit AMA for trigger warning: rapists where people started sympathizing with them?) Or it simply becomes a gross fantasy-outlet that allows people to abuse fictional characters as a way of fun and escape, which is a whole problem in and of its own. So that I would strongly, strongly be against.

[trevers17]

I think playing from the perspective of an abused character would be interesting, but it’d definitely have to be thoroughly researched and portrayed with a lot of delicacy. Also, it should be relevant to the story and shouldn’t be there just because. This opinion goes against my normal philosophy of “who gives a fuck if it’s interesting” but I think issues like this are very important to be careful around when making a game. There’d need to be enough separation from realism for me personally to be comfortable with it.

Playing as an abusive PC is out of the question for me. Not okay at all. I don’t want to abuse another character like that. Even if it isn’t real, I’m definitely not comfortable with it.

[Dizzie]

This is not something that is new to COG though. Take Black Magic in The Hero Project. That is a largely one-sided relationship in that everything is about Black Magic. How they feel, making sure that they were comfortable. The PC’s emotions are largely disregarded. Not to mention that later on in the series Black Magic becomes outright emotionally manipulative.

It’s also not new to games like COG and others like it. For example, Jumin Han from Mystic Messenger. His route is one of the most popular ones, despite the fact that he outright holds the PC hostage in his apartment for days. He also tells you what you can and can’t do, how to dress, and repeatedly states he wants to put you in a cage and keep you as his pet. In fact, he will do this if you get one of his bad endings. All alarming things that would have people running for the hills in real life, yet all his fan girls find that behavior attractive in the context of the game.

Fiction-writing is a medium that’s about expression and telling a story. And not all stories are going to be pretty and “safe.” If people who would be triggered or uncomfortable with that kind of content are given fair warning beforehand that it’s going to be a part of the story, then they have the choice or whether they want to continue or not and ample opportunity to avoid it all together. As long as the problematic behavior is being addressed by the narrative and the characters that it is, in fact, PROBLEMATIC and it’s not being written in a way to minimize or glorify abuse and abusive relationships, I would have no problem reading it.

[MeltingPenguins]

Just because something has been done before does not mean it can, left alone should be repeated.

BlackMagic is abusive and manipulative (and a (TW: )rapist in addition) from the start. There is no ‘later’ in the series. It’s all from the first game one, culminating in all their shortcomings getting handwave as ‘someone else made them do bad things’ in the latest installment.

And it’s disgusting and unsettling.

The other thing… I need to find the studies (plural!) again on how society (more precisely) conditions young afab people that such behavior is a positive quality in men, etc.

So, none of the examples are in anyway a point pro what the OP seems to propose.

[Samuel_H_Young]

I never really went with the Black Magic romance. She’s a rapist?!

[Regularcheese]

I don’t remember Black Magic being a rapist. Them probably being raped, yes. Don’t know where you got that from.

[trevers17]

On the topic of writer responsibility, I think saying that the writer has zero responsibility to write abuse accurately and sensitively because the reader doesn’t have to read their story is naive at best. To me, writers have a responsibility as the person creating a story to portray certain behaviors as bad if they are issues that commonly occur to people in the real world and could easily occur to the reader (abuse, discrimination, etc.).

Take 50 Shades of Grey. The writer of that book (and the subsequent screenwriter of the movie) was extremely irresponsible because they portrayed unhealthy BDSM practices as acceptable. Imagine how many people have read or watched that content and learned about an inaccurate version of how BDSM is supposed to occur. Consent is already a huge issue on its own, and the book/movie portrays lack of consent as okay in several situations in worrisome ways. Sure, no one has to read it, but for the people that do read it, learning about something potentially dangerous so incorrectly is highly irresponsible on the writer’s part.

If a writer chooses to use abuse in their story and doesn’t portray it correctly, it can have some pretty bad consequences. People learn from the world around them, and media is no exception. Sure, we can fudge a realistic setting to benefit the story, but when we portray real-world issues that affect people on a daily basis and do so incorrectly to the detriment of anyone first discovering something like this, it can have disastrous effects.

EDIT: @Eiwynn oh whoops, I accidentally repeated your 50 Shades points from above. Silly me for not reading all the way through!

[MeltingPenguins]

@Regularcheese

I don’t remember Black Magic being a rapist. Them probably being raped, yes. Don’t know where you got that from.

In both the 1st and 2nd game the ‘romance’ scenes with them deprive the player of the possibility to give consent.

In the 1st, you have to have constantly voiced that you don’t dislike BM, otherwise saying no after they pulled that manipulative, emotionally abusive stunt is treated as a ‘yes’. In the second game, after saying no to sex, they’ll pull you into the pool and take off your wet clothes and you’ll have sex. The game again acts as if finding them hot and being in a relationship equals consent.
This is a thing in sergi’s writing unfortunately: The moment you voice interest in a char/get into a relationship the game will act as if you consented to everything they throw at you, usually in the form of something 50Shades-esq leather & latex BDSM.

[Regularcheese]

But that’s just Sergi making the MC ignore the players choice. I replayed that part and the MC, even if you choose no, consents to the sex with Black Magic. I don’t think that makes them a rapist.
Sergi does this alot making the player choose a reaction and response and having the MC completely ignore it and doing their own thing. Like if you say you were fine with the way Black Magic fuels their powers your character decides to ignore them and stop talking to them anyway.

[Kanaya]

@MichaelCrank

Yeah, Junko is pretty twisted with her scenes, especially the one in SoH3. I’m sure you already know which one I’m referring to.

I will sit here and try and save her. I don’t care what anyone says. It is my ultimate goal for that series.

[MichaelCrank]

You’re not the only one that is interested in it. Such angst! Haha

[Kanaya]

Shut up, I want to love and protect her.

WE DIDN’T KNOW JUNKO, WE’RE SORRY!

[MeltingPenguins]

It’s still rape.
Or better (worse) it’s the author saying that being in a relationship/finding someone hot equals consent or that you will always give consent.

This is… not good. If the player chosen NO the game should NOT go and treat it as yes.

There’s a high percentage of people IRL that believe that relationship equals consent, and that ‘no’ means ‘convince me’.
And that is the mentality promoted here.

[GenecoInheritor]

She tried to force herself on you including faking an emergency to lure you. She may not be a rapist necessarily ( I avoided her like the plague) but she’s certainly an attempted rapist.

[Regularcheese]

Except it’s not.
The MC basically tells you fuck you and consents to the sex.

The game shouldn’t treat it as a yes when you say no. But saying is rape is not true when the character in the game consents to it.

@GenecoInheritor faking am emergency to get you to come to her is wrong but it isn’t rape again. They also don’t force themselves on you.

[Kanaya]

On the topic of the discussion, I honestly am both a Sadist and a Masochist with certain people. It all depends on preference. Actual abuse I wouldn’t mind having if we were the one being abused in the story.

I wouldn’t ever abuse an RO unless they got enjoyment out of it though.

[GenecoInheritor]

Prodigal and her whip

[MeltingPenguins]

@Regularcheese

Except it’s not.
The MC basically tells you fuck you and consents to the sex.

The game shouldn’t treat it as a yes when you say no. But saying is rape is not true when the character in the game consents to it.

Well, then we’re edging into the territory where we’d have to call the author a 2nd-degree rapist as he’s the one who insists on forcing sex the reader did not consent to on the reader. And I’m not sure we want to do that.

In-universe BM is a reality warper, so one might argue they screwed with reality to one where one says yes or used their powers in other ways, which I assume would count as rape to you?

EDIT:
I think the core problem here lies with the nature of how some writers write:
We have a CYOA at hand, which means you technically have to write at least two similar but different stories.
I’m not calling Sergi a rapist (god forbid, and sorry if that just came across as such), but I do say that he seems to forget often enough that he’s not writing a novella, and that not everyone might be okay with how he’d prefer the story to go. Maybe even baffled by that.
The bit with BM already had to be altered to allow to not have sex, and instead of taking a no as a no he bend over backwards to make it a bit of a task.

SoH has similar issues, though as I haven’t played that I can’t tell in details. But I did see the discussion about the ‘embracing one’s female/male side’ that’s to come in 4, and how many people were driven from the game du to the author’s insistence that women are like this, men are like that.

And to come back round to the topic:
Going through the post we seem to have a similar effect in play:
People oblivious to the idea that not everyone might be okay with something they’d be okay with ‘because it’s just fiction’.