Hey, how about we spin off the Choice of Romance discussions to their own thread?
I was thinking about this topic, and I think JimD might have said this earlier I’m not sure but I think that the amount of customization should reflect or change plot based on the setting IE year, place, and time. So say the story is about the only survivor of a crashed airplane in the Sahara during the early 1930’s the author could implement the choice of name, gender, and if they really want to ethnicity, and appearance, and if they want they might might implement a slight amount of choices of clothing. But since the setting is solid, and is set so you know when, and where it is I think adding more than 2-4 choices of clothing would be too much customization. And adding traits such as kindness, sociability, honor, and other things like that would be over the top.
The thing with the gender neutrality of CoI is that it falls squarely under the ‘can’t make everyone happy’ category, and really had no way to escape it. Augustin(a) gets very few places in the story to define and characterize themselves. That’s not without good reason, as it’s very difficult to have a single romaceable character and have everyone say ‘yea, I’d romance them.’ That’s kinda necessary for the main thread of CoI to work.
The place where they lift the player up off the balcony is one of the few places where they define themselves. Flamboyant, strong, not necessarily nice or overly polite, used to being in power and control. There’s a lot you can read into that, and to remove or alter it for Augustina specifically really does reduce her character, and I think does the whole story from that perspective a disservice. So I’ll concentrate on what can be done to fix, rather than avoid, the problem of such clashes with the player’s image of the PC, and what the PC actually does.
Coming to the physical side of things, it’s one of those places where you just can’t win. People will assume that the character in the story is them because, well, it’s in the second person. The PC is indeed intended to be them. We assume this includes the physical side of things as well, of course, right? Now, you take the average man, a couple hundred pounds, and yea, your average woman, even a strong one, is unlikely to lift him effortlessly, particularly when the man is not expecting it and not practiced in helping her to lift his weight. So if we assume the PC has all the attributes of any given player, yea, it’s sometimes immersion breaking.
But that’s the thing, no matter how you cut it, the PC is not the player. Not fully at least. I mean, we know from the start that the player is around 16, while the average player is very unlikely to be exactly that age. Likewise we know that the PC is from a culture that is reminiscent of those of the Iberian Peninsula in language. These are things that don’t change because they would change the story, and/or they fall well outside the bounds of customization. Likewise certain other things do so too, the PC’s family wealth, or lack there of, their family titles, and so on. These are things that are filled in by the writer, so the player has no control over them. Likewise we assume the PC is able-bodied, right? However, not every player is going to be physically the same as the PC in that regard, right? Let me reiterate the question I asked in the previous paragraph, ‘We assume this includes the physical side of things as well, of course, right?’ Well, for a number of players, the answer is no. Now, if we assume a male PC is of a slight build, and Augustin(a) is of a larger build, then yea, it is entirely possible for a PC to be lifted, even by Augustina.
The problem therefore ends up being (to tie it to the main topic), one of choice. How important is it that the player be able to choose the PC’s general body structure? Now, to quit waxing philosophical (blame the religion thread I’m making a reply to), if the Jousting scene had come before the play, I would say that the best way is jousters would be assumed to be of a build large enough that Augustin(a) would not easily lift them, otherwise they would would be assumed to be of a slight enough build to be liftable. Maybe even see if there was a way to drop a mention of Jousting before that, and define both before they ever come up. However, ignoring that, whether it’s important enough to let a player define the PC’s physical build, *shrug* 'ell if I know.
@Havenstone, sorry, I actually missed your question until now.
I like The Fleet, because it is obviously stating that its characters are of ambiguous genders. And yet, despite that, it manages to build believable, human-like characters. The lieutenant (I forgot the name), manages to present him/herself as a character who believes fervently in the righteousness of the military and also holds a deep-seated distrust of the aliens he/she has been fighting for so long.
There are also several scenes where you interact with your lieutenant, and they never come off as written awkwardly, although there are some scenes where the word choice is a little odd to avoid the use of pronouns.
But in short, The Fleet managed to create human characters, despite the fact that said characters lacked one of the most fundamental things that made them human: Their gender.
On the other hand, CoR and CoB present very odd characters who come off as very male, and were only given a pronoun change to complete the transition from male to female. Yes, I understand that this is a product of CoG’s policy on equality, but I didn’t - and don’t - think that equality should be like that.
The characters presented to us just aren’t as believable as the genderless characters in The Fleet. I’m not sure if this is an opinion that only I have; but that is my opinion. My opinion is that certain characters are better kept as a single gender, even if that takes away customisation. I think it would enrich the process of storytelling, since I actually expected a lot of different things when I played characters of different sexes.
@FairyGodfeather Firstly, the overwhelming majority of male 16 year olds are quite sizable. Even among late developers, the amount of size gain that occurs between the ages of 16 and 21 is much less than that which occurs between 12 and 16. Now if the authors had taken the time to sell me on a size difference before that moment, perhaps I wouldn’t have been so shocked. No such effort was made however.
Secondly, when did Lucy Lawless, the real life actress who plays Xena, ever pick up and swing around a grown man in a similar manner without the help of a special effects department? She’s in very good shape, but she doesn’t have that sort of strength. As far as the character, *shrug*, it’s a high magic version of the ancient world where the Greek gods are all walking around causing mischief, and sometimes handing out super powers. Anything is possible in that sort of world.
Thirdly, I have nothing against dominant women. I did like the game overall. Nevertheless that particular scene did snap me out of my immersion in the story. The image that appeared in my head was of Chyna swinging Verne Troyer (of Mini-me fame) around, and that wasn’t the least bit appealing to me.
@Wyrmspawn Your reply to @MaraJade pretty much coincides with my own thoughts, so much so that I don’t see a need to post my own reply. Thanks! 
I hate to be the boring mod, as it’s a very interesting and valid discussion you guys are having here, but I do think it’s begun to drift rather off topic. It might be worth starting a new thread to discuss thoughts on gender handling and letting this one get back to ‘how much customisation’?
@Reaperoa It’s not just a matter of choice, it’s also a matter of story set-up. The story never describes your physical build, or Augustina’s. So of course you’re going to have an image of your character in your head by that point, and probably her’s too. And when those images suddenly collides with the events of a scene, of course there is going to be a disconnect. It would have been no different if suddenly, without any prior notice or warning, your character was treated as if he or she was in a wheel-chair several chapters into the story.
Secondly, I don’t think it would have reduced Augustina’s character if she hadn’t lifted you up off that balcony and swung you around. A woman does not need to be as physically strong as a muscular man to be strong or dominant. And as it is, that scene doesn’t always occur.
EDIT: Oops, sorry about that @CJW. Didn’t see your post before I put up mine. Well at least the first paragraph fits in with the customization discussion.
@CJW Sorry, I’m going to be a terrible member and disagree with a mod. I’m a rebel today!
I thought Reaperoa did an excellent job of swinging the discussion back onto topic, since he directly refers to “How important is it that the player be able to choose the PC’s general body structure?” I think that directly relates to the customisation question and is why this subject is so relevant.
That said I did also think we could continue this over on another thread, if we’ve not already hashed everything out.
@P_Tigras I see and understand your point.
@FairyGodfeather, puny fool… To disagree with the mods is DEATH! :-q … Or maybe not.
@FairyGodfeather but you are a mod, so you can disagree with them as you like. Us mere mortals, on the other hand…
Yes, the mods are not mortals. There are many different types of mods each varying with new religion. There are the multiple Greek and Roman Mods, there is the Jewish Mod and the Christian mod. Us Christians believe that the Mod’s son came into the world of the lowly forum posters and wip writers… There are even those who believe that Mod doesn’t exist, and that nothing about the mod makes sense, although I choose to believe that Mod does, but wants us to have faith even when we could “prove” little facts about him wrong…
Mod bless you.
You should all be ashamed of yourself, taking the thread off topic. Tut tut.
Back to How Much Customisation.
I’m tempted to write “as much as is needed” now but preferably not too much.
I don’t think I tackled the criteria mentioned in depth in my last posts.
Gender - I prefer games where I have a choice here.
Name - I like, at the very least, to have a selection of names to choose from. This means that I know what the right type of names for the game is so even if I decide to input my own name, I don’t end up with one that’s jarringly different.
Age - If age can be selected then, again, I’d like it to have some sort of impact, if people judge me for my age, and if certain choices are barred because you’re too young/old and different challenges are created. The 80 year old is always going to have different experiences than the 8 year old. I don’t mind if age is chosen for me. Waywalkers has you playing a young teen, choice of romance starts you at just 16, Zombie Exodus you’re in your 20s, Slammed you’re about that age too. The age is, generally, relevant since it’s a part of the story.
Sexuality - For me this is a must. I don’t like it being asked bluntly, as a question, during chargen though. I’ve gone into that before though.
Background - I love pre-created backgrounds. I loved Slammed with the rivalry between you and JJ and how the whole story was about that. I liked how Heroes Rise had your grandmother and your parent’s history. In contrast, with Zombie Exodus, I found the background a little shallow, other than you having your sister. But it needed to be to accommodate all of the career choices.
Appearance - I don’t particularly care what my character looks like. If I’m allowed the opportunity to choose, I prefer it to actually be relevant or come up at some point. I suppose choice of romance did that with matching gems to eye-colour but I think a lot more could have been done with it.
I guess I sum this up by saying I like customisation, as long as it serves a purpose and impacts the story in some way.
Again, the mods disagree… Does this signal the beginning of the mod wars?
I generally don’t think of customisation as a good thing; being able to customise your own character is just a nice perk, at best. What matters most to me in a CoG is the storytelling, and sometimes the storytelling is disrupted by customisable characters. So, for me… I’d say my stance would be do it if you think you can, but if you can’t pull it off,please don’t try… It could lessen a perfectly good story.
Some types of customization seem irrelevant and only drag out the introduction as you have to click through extraneous choices, making replays more work. It seems odd when we’re given choices to set our character’s hair color and eye color, and not once are we told anyone else’s hair or eye color in a game with very little descriptive text.
If there’s romance however, sexuality is high relevant. On the question of whether or not it should be determined in the intro, I’ve found that I’ve developed a preference for it to be asked very early on in the game, just as CoR handled it. That makes it pretty straightforward. Otherwise all too often its integration into the story gets botched, resulting in player complaints.
In Mecha Ace, I’ve tried to avoid making sexuality a conscious choice in the first place. There are four romance option NPCs, which can either be male or female based on either randomisation at the beginning of the game or player choice (the player can choose which). If the genders are randomised, there will always be two men and two women. Out of these four, the player can begin a romance with any of the four, so long as their relationship values are high enough, and their personality values are compatible (or were made compatible earlier on).
If the player wants to play a strictly heterosexual or homosexual character, they can simply do so by choosing only to romance characters of the relevant gender. NPCs which your character is “romantically compatible” with will generally drop hints that they would accept a relationship, but the player would have plenty of opportunities to turn them down.
I’m considering the same system when I do romances in Guns of Infinity, though there will also be characters which you could pursue, who will not return your affections, either through incompatible sexualities, or other mitigating factors.
I feel that sexuality should never be explicitly decieded early on, since it actually hinders the players ability to do things. It should be done similar to what Cataphrak said, through the player’s decision.
That said what do you guys feel about having many different skills or ways to attack a situation that you can pick and chose from, depending on your stats? That counts as customization, no?
@Yamamato
I personally subscribe to the “less is more” philosophy when it comes to skills. More skills may mean that the player has more freedom to develop their character, but it also means that each individual choice regarding the player’s strength/weakness in those skills is less significant. A choice offering an increase in a skill is a lot more useful if you only have half a dozen skills, as opposed to twenty.
Ultimately, it’s up to you, though my advice would be to think as a game developer rather than a writer: ask yourself “how can I balance all these stats to make them both equally useful and valid paths of development?”.
@Cataphrak
I love the sound of that indirect approach of questioning the player’s sexual orientation.
Can you think you could up with a good one for gender selection too? ^^
As much as I appreciate customization is important, I have to agree with those who have already said that, in excess, in can be very annoying - particularly when it’s in the form of question after question at the start of the game.
One thing I had thought of is that too much customization, particularly that which relates to player appearance, can actually make the game seem less rich by hampering description.
Take hair colour for example, brown, black, blue, red and blonde etc.
You tuck a strand of your red/blue/blonde/brown/black hair behind your ear.
It’s always going to be red/blue/blonde/brown or black, you can’t go off on a tangent and say ‘fiery locks’, or ‘dark as night’. You’d need a lot of variables and writing time to make all the hair colours have multiple descriptions.
If you don’t mention hair colour, or you give them a fixed colour I think the writer is given more freedom, and this applies to many other things too.
You could just not write about the hair that much, avoiding repetition of a bland description, but then what would the whole point of including it be? 
Thus I think over customization of certain factors actually hinders the ability to write the story, even if it enhances the ‘game’.
@CJW
I guess one way to do gender is the way The Fleet did it, not bringing it up in the text at all. Mecha Ace simply has a point where your wingman addresses you, and you choose whether you’re addressed as “Sir” or “Ma’am”.