How much customisation?

General
21

Anyone who has a problem with that Choice of Romance scene where the Queen lifts a male consort just have a look on youtube for women lifting men. There are plenty of videos of women carrying men, yes even relatively small women carrying men that way more than they do. The Queen’s already been described as athletic anyway.

The line itself reads as: “When de Mendosa was playing this part, {he_pref} only handed you down from the tower. But the {King} surprises you by reaching up, grasping you under the arms, and swinging you down beside ${him_pref}.”

That should be something as possible for a woman to do as a man. It’s definitely something I can see the Queen doing, showing off her athletic prowess.

@DreamWalker I agree. I was more saying that in games without romances sexuality can still matter, so it’s better not to assume.

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@FairyGodfeather, I don’t think that’s actually the scene people had in mind - but I’ll wait for confirmation.

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So, @FairyGodfeather, I asked you a simple question: “Which games did you have in mind that assume that the ethnicity of the PC is white?” Now, that’s a simple question, but despite prompting, and with ample time to reply, - and, indeed, having replied twice to other issues, - you have failed to do so. I can only conclude that you are deliberately ignoring it, - and I hold similar conduct on other threads, by yourself, as making this conclusion not unwarranted.

I have to say, I would never have guessed you would stoop to such a level of childishness. And, to be honest, I wouldn’t care, - were you not a moderator. Moderators have a certain level of responsibilities, and have a certain standard of behaviour as a requirement. And yet you are operating based on what I can only imagine to be some petty grudge, to ignore a simple, direct question, which requested you clarify a point you’d made. That is infantile, rude, and tritely vindictive. When a moderator can hold such silly grudges, and behave so inappropriately, there is a problem.

This sort of conduct is shameful, and I would say you are embarrassing yourself. I know not what standards are enforced for moderators on this site, but forgive my directness and lack of servility, when I say you should seek to rectify this, post haste.

And for the other moderators: @Jasonstevanhill, @Havenstone, @CJW, @JimD, my apologies if you see this message as insubordinate, but I am not one to suffer that which is objectionable without action.

Edit: @Havenstone, Huehuehue, “diatribes.”

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@Drazen You seem to be ascribing motivations to me that don’t exist.

Must I now assume that any time you do not answer a question or address a specific point that you’re doing this in order to be “infantile, rude, and tritely vindictive.”

Since your attack upon me is off-topic I will not address that subject any further.

Reread my post. Nowhere in it do I state that I’m using specific games as examples. If I was doing so then surely I’d have mentioned them as I am apt to do. As it was, I was just stating what I like in regards to customisation. The race issue has come up while I’ve beta-tested games. It’s always been quickly rectified by the author. It is a problem

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@FairyGodfeather If you, or any other moderators, wish to discuss my so-called “attack” against you elsewhere, I’d be happy to oblige. Suffice to say, I find your response unsatisfactory, and maintain my urging for you to correct your conduct.

26

If I sounded like an anti feminist, then I apologize for not taking the time to detail my case. What I am saying is not that females are not supposed to be strong. I shall consider changing my profile photo to avoid other people coming to that conclusion in the future.

I am saying that the scene in CoG is not written equally for both genders. Havenstone, I recognize your argument for what it’s worth, but I still think it’s a facade at best and not true equality.

True equality should be about accepting differences but realizing that we are all the same race, the human race. By trying to blindly pretend there are no differences, you are not being truly equal.

I think that it is not right to call the game equal for both genders if it is nothing but a pronoun switch. What that particular game does, in my opinion, is simply take a characterization of the popular staple image of a strong (not just in the physical sense) male leader and slap it onto a woman, and dub that as equality.

Don’t get me wrong; I’m not saying that women are not strong characters. I’m saying that, even when female characters are strong, they are not reverse images of male characters. A popular and well-known example would be Hermione from Harry Potter. She is presented as a strong and smart character, yet she obviously isn’t just a male character with pronoun switches and it comes out throughout the story.

Another example would be Thirrin in the Icemark Series. She is depicted as a stubborn and strong warrior queen who displays the characteristics of certain famous military leaders and kings, but still comes across as a character who can still seem like a young girl, instead of a male character given female pronouns.

What CoG is doing right now robs characters, both male and female, of their character. Is it sexist of me to say that male and female characters are different? Or is it sexist of those who say that all main characters should represent males? I have no idea if I am truly in the right, and I admit it. But I am certain that allowing characters to develop character wouldn’t hurt the reading process.

I’m not complaining about women lifting men, FairyGodFeather; I really thought the forums should know I’m better than that. I’m saying that the entire gender-swap thing is carried out haphazardly. CoG’s policy on gender hardly seems equal at all to me. How can you justify only writing about one gender? Yes, you give it a pronoun switch and all, but it’s still written from the perspective of the other gender. Characters aren’t created like that. CoG’s characters are just… I’m not even sure how to describe them, but they definitely aren’t like people.

My point is that CoG is not giving equality. It is, at best, trying to eliminate the differences between genders by eliminating gender alltogether.

True equality should recognize differences instead of ignoring and disallowing them, that’s what I’m trying to say.

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CoG doesn’t take just one approach to this. In Broadsides, the genders are very unequal, but the gender-flipped version of the game makes that inequality obvious. In Romance/Affairs, it’s a bisexual society. In Vampire, sexism and racism are part of the horror of the setting. In Fleet, the main character doesn’t even have a defined gender.

In every case, somebody has said, “That’s so lazy. You should have done something else instead.” For example, in Broadsides, some people said we should have invented a bisexual society instead of simple flipping. In Romance, some people said we should have differentiated the genders more. And so on.

There’s no one right way to do it. We’ve covered most of the options, and will continue to publish games that try any/all of these approaches and experiment with new approaches.

One thing we won’t do is to simply have a game in an unequal society without something to highlight it as a problem, e.g. a story where a male-only main character overcomes challenges to rescue a helpless female-only NPC.

1 Like
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I can see where you’re coming from @Wyrmspawn. I don’t think anyone’s throwing around the word ‘sexist’ in this thread.

I actually agree with you that I think too much customization can hurt a game. Not for the same reasons mind you.

I really enjoy Choice of Game’s exploration of gender. It’s one of the main aspects that have interested me in this site.

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@Wyrmspawn, I wouldn’t use either “anti feminist” or “sexist” - in this context, such blunt words would just be sticks to beat people with. There are different kinds of feminism, and one can reject CoG’s without being anti feminist. But it’s good to be clear on what’s being rejected and why.

In those CoG games where a gender swap only changes pronouns, the assumption isn’t necessarily that there are no differences between the male and female version of the character… just that those differences won’t affect the course of the story, so they can be left to the readers’ imagination. (Which is always the alternative to customization. If I can’t choose my char’s hair color, I can imagine it any way I please).

It also presumes that the traits that are described can belong to either males or females - not necessarily the average male or female (cause the heroes of these games are almost always extraordinary, regardless of sex), but a plausible individual.

So I don’t think it’s quite as simple as denying gender differences. It’s downgrading their importance and denying their comprehensiveness.

“CoG’s characters are just… I’m not even sure how to describe them, but they definitely aren’t like people.”

This strikes an odd note to me. In another thread you were praising The Fleet’s approach to gender over CoB and AotC, and suggesting that other games could even make romance work in a pronoun-free, gender-free style. To me, the genuinely genderless character of Fleet is less “like people” than the pronouned characters of the other games, and a romance would be interesting but bizarre.

By contrast, I find Queen Agustina a very human and plausible character - even on earth we’ve had similar queens. How much more on a world without the same attitudes toward women and power? I disagree that she’s written from a male perspective; rather, she has power in ways that (in our sexist world) get associated with men, like the power to express libido with few or no limitations.

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@Havenstone I agree Agustina is exactly same that the russian queen Catherine the Great, ninphomaniac ,ruthless, agressivity , and no shy to show her strong also inteligent and political wise. One of better rulers ever.

But in reality, almost all queens i known use their power and have traits associated with male gender.
Our spanish queens are a example Isabel the most stubborn ruler ever she drops her gay brother of throne almost alone. then destroy his brother daughter called her bastard La beltraneja … many of war records shows our queen fighting and in our museums have all her armors perfectly adapted to womanhood and with clear signs of fighting same her words. She wasn’t ninphomaniac more to inverse.
But she was the only ruler with the guts to sell their jewellery to the jews to pay Columbus, the sailor visited half of europe to searching money. Only one has the view to send the crazy captain.

So each time a guy say no woman could be so ruthless or strong. In spanish is easy remember Isabel and the old-fashioned machismo excuse is funny “Well, Isabel I was different she was send by god to defeat muslims and conquest America”

Sorry for the wall of text but history show clearly that so claimed manly behaviour. Sex desires , ruthless power hungry no inhibition are no related to gender are related to the power. like 90% times men was the rulers could make some people say this is masculine. But same percentage of woman in power has same traits ,lol. Is power not your sexual organ who allows you behaviour like Agustina.

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@Drazen: and I would of course characterize myself as a fellow diatribe-writer. Glancing over the online dictionaries, the current definitions emphasize angry ranting much more than I intended to convey. In my head the word retains more of its classical connotations of discourse – a position argued intensely and at length, but not in a way that sacrifices civility or rationality. While we disagree on, oh, most things, I wouldn’t intentionally disparage you as a mere ranter. Apologies if my archaism led to even fleeting offense or misunderstanding.

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@Havenstone Oh don’t apologise; I was amused by the modern connotations, not offended.

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Audience and story dictate customization options.

ZE has a wide audience and the majority of feedback suggests players want to build specific characters, so I put in heavy customization. People treat character creation as a mini-game.

Games with a more focused theme or plot may do well to limit customization. Marine Raiders used a specific setting, so defining hair color or nationality is not as necessary.

In my new game, NPCs will judge you on appearance and background, so customization also relates to plot. If you are heavily tattooed or a teen or have a criminal background, you will be treated differently. I am investing my time to utilize the customizations for my audience and to strengthen story.

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@Drazen You are banned from the forums for the next three months. Your continual harassment of the moderators is inappropriate and unacceptable.

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Me, I sometime don’t play games that doesn’t allow me to choose gender, or more specifically, does not allow me to pick the female gender. Why? Because I tend to get into stories easier if I play my own gender, simply. Name is always nice too, to be sure, as that too can help. Beyond that, depends. I enjoy it more if it come out through play rather than stating, say, sexuality, unless it is for a survey (ZE:SH, for instance) or other similar situations.

As for gender-switch via pronoun, I am fine with that, as long as the story is well written. I make my own character, and well written games avoid putting emotions into my character unless they do it via choices. How other people react to the MC gender is another issue, but easily coded from my limited knowledge of Choice Script (i.e., just display different text, play with variables and so on) if the author feel this is a must.

But overall, the more customisation, the more I enjoy it - kind of like when I make characters for ages in Skyrim etc, even though it could matter less in actual game play. All about immersion! :smiley:

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in my opinion, race is a great thing to see in customization, not the many people think about putting african american or latino when they do , but anyone can tell you that the story will be alot easier to get into.

1 Like
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@Havenstone: I haven’t been on much the past few weeks, and somehow I missed your summoning until I wandered back into this thread just now, looking for why my favorite forum archtraditionalist has been banned. Here’s the exact quote from CoR:

At last the Queen vanquishes the final obstacle (Pride) and looks up at you. You stretch out your hand beseechingly, as you have been instructed.

When de Mendosa was playing this part, she only handed you down from the tower. But the Queen surprises you by reaching up, grasping you under the arms , and swinging you down beside her.

And then she whips off her mask in a grand gesture.

@FairyGodFeather I’ve never seen a woman who isn’t built like Chyna http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/Chyna.jpg of WWE fame easily lift a full-sized man by grasping him under the arms, and then swing him around. And the text makes it sound effortless. I doubt even Chyna could make it look effortless with a 200lb man. I see strong men making it look effortless with lightly built women all the time however. It’s the sort of thing strong male dancers and ice skaters will do with dainty female dancers and ice skaters. It’s the sort of thing the hero will do with the heroine in a romance novel. Women on average have only 1/3 the upper body strength of men however, and men on average weigh 50% more than women. The sort of physique needed by a woman to pull something like that off with a full-sized man without pressing her chest to his and putting her back into it is very rare, and not something the overwhelming majority of men would find romantically appealing. Feel free to point out some of these videos you say exist however. I’d love to see what you’ve found. I myself haven’t found any.

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Firstly, you’re not a full sized man. You’re barely 16 years old.

Secondly, Augustina’s not an average woman. I’ll admit to picturing her like Xena. She’s an athletic woman, in her prime and I can bet that she’s practiced until she can swing people around. It’s not even like it’s done for an extended period of time, and she’s got the downward momentum to help her. I didn’t picture it like a man swinging around a dainty woman. Just a under the arms, helping down, with a swinging flourish, in the air for barely a second. The whole point of it is her showing off.

I’ll agree that it’s not particularly empowering. I would suspect that for Augustina that’s part of the appeal. It’s proof of her dominance, how she’s the one in charge, in a world where the power dynamics are completely different to those that we’re used to. Where age is more important than gender in defining the dynamics of a relationship.

Okay, I am having difficulties finding women doing that exact lift. It might be problems with my search terms and my brain’s too fuzzy just now to remember what I typed.

What about cheerleaders? Gymnasts? There’s pictures on wikipedia of a single woman holding up two other gymnasts in a lift.

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Ejem , both of you forget TWO factors:
-It´s a society when magic exist, not our society,lol. She could have a powered charmed amulet helping her enchanting her strong power or a potion or just a persistent spell cast over herself, she was a powerful black magic and have tons of white magicians to helping her health and improve her strong. So stop thinking in our current no magic society.

2- It´s a story not a accurate relate of real facts. Authors have poetical licences,lol. Do you really think all this heroical medieval knights could do half of authors write? like kill giants with triple of his height cutting his head of while the monster was up front them really.??
Exaggerations are part of fantasy genre, The Quijote our spanish best seller book in history is a parody of this. And have a description of the princess who can lift more than five men in grain sacks. It´s a satire of course about chivalry books description. I recommend both of you read it.

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Mara, I’m not trying to say that this isn’t a fantasy story; but I definitely didn’t see any focus on fantasy elements within it. The magic in the story is pretty much treated as a sideline; the main part of the story is just about a noble trying to manipulate others into doing things that will affect the run of a medieval country.

The only times you get to actually use that magic in the story is when you assassinate people for political reasons, when you use it during a fight that occured again for a political reason, and in a jousting competition that just needed some sort of combat stat and decided to say “magic jousting!” so that the author could go on without giving the character actual combat stats.

In such a society; where violence is always conducted in a shadowy manner and never revealed to the public; it would be strange, to say the least, that the leader of such a society would openly use an amulet to enhance his/her strength.

Your second point, also, I disagree with. Writers have poetical licenses when it adds to the story. Embellishing an act of courage or an act of strength is acceptable if the piece of writing mainly takes the form of an epic. If CoR was an epic, however, it was an epic fail of an epic. It was a great light fantasy political romance story, but it definitely wasn’t an epic with dragons and knights and wars and giants that you were referring to.

If I’m not presenting myself clearly on what I think was wrong with that scene, I’ll write an example.

If the movie 300 was suddenly interjected in the middle of the battle with maybe a bomber plane carrying a nuclear bomb destroying both armies, with the justification: “Hey, war story means you get fighter pilots and shit, right?” How would you feel? You’d probably feel more than a little trolled and confused.

That’s why, in this case, I don’t think the writer of CoR would be justified in saying it was just a little embellishment for the sake of the story. Embellishment is a necessity in an epic, or a high-fantasy adventure like Lord of the Rings, but in a romance story, or a political story… well, they’re not necessary. And embellishment in unneccessary places only makes the reader question the viability of the narrator’s analysis of the scenes.