Historical CoG Games

Choice of Games games
21

I guess I would start by breaking down why Tin Star was so popular. Personally, that was - and is - the only IF (that takes place in a historical and non-fantasy setting) that I greatly enjoyed and will replay it over and over again.

I liked the cast, the world, and how the Marshall fit into all of it, to put it very plainly; the epilogue for each character was a very nice sendoff that made it all the more memorable; all in all, it was an enjoyable experience from start to finish.

On the one hand, I think the only other historically set IF I’ve read is Pendragon Rising and it was… I don’t know… lackluster? It was okay, but I never ended it feeling satisfied, so I’ve never really replayed it to the extent I’ve replayed Tin Star over and over and over again.

On the other hand, historical fiction isn’t exactly my cup of tea. It’s just not an attention grabber to me, especially in the fictional setting. To be completely honest, I’m more enthralled by my history books than an actual piece of historical fiction for some strange reason. :thinking:

Not exactly the route Tin Star took since the Marshall wasn’t supposed to be, as far as I’m aware, someone famous from the Wild West. This option, or something similar to what Tin Star did, would probably be the PoV I would prefer to play as since it would, theoretically, provide more agency to the MC versus playing as someone who’s actions are set in stone so to speak.

Personally, while historical fiction isn’t my preferred choice, I’d still be wiling to play the demo of a historically set IF if I was offered it. Upon some reflection, maybe I’m just not interested in the time periods and time settings that have been offered so far?

If someone offered me an IF where I could play as a member of a Kazakh tribe and the MC learned how to hunt with a golden eagle? Yes, I would absolutely play that! :eagle:

7 Likes
22

It can be tough to figure out why one game might do better than another. I won’t deny that audiences do seem less likely to get into historical CoGs, though one exception might be the ones who also have a big military influence.

Of the ones listed above, I can easily state why I didn’t feel an urge to replay them before, and it wasn’t subject matter, but delivery. Of course, this is different for other people.

Some games can feel a bit…shallow. I’m not saying the writer didn’t work hard, but if it lightly touches on many things, it can leave the player feeling a bit all over the place. That is how I felt with Broadway 1849.

Along those lines, it might be a system just doesn’t seem to work well. Gilded Rails…well, the railroad running simulation part of it just didn’t work for me. I was fine with the ‘you need to marry’ bit, and could be an interesting premise in a story.

Perceived size of the game can be a factor. Yes, there can be a lot of stuff going on under the hood, but I wager many players don’t notice text differences…and if they only play it once, anyways, then they won’t see changes.

I think another big factor to consider here is many people play CoGs for the romances, and if the romances feel sparse or lacking…well, they don’t necessarily want to replay it either. I admit, I can fall into this camp, and most of the ones listed above…well, I think if just one more scene or two was written with a love interest…and not one where it feels like the name/gender is copy/pasted, that might have made a difference. (This is just a general observation)

I have notes for what I consider a ‘prehistory game’…yeah, think Ice Age. One scene I actually considered was a player perhaps domesticating an animal for the first time…and yeah, an eagle could be interesting.

For the Pre-history game, I actually liked the set up like Life of a Mobster where the player starts as a child, and enters adulthood, perhaps finding their ‘main role’ as it were, like shaman, herbalist, artisan, or huntress…

17 Likes
23

I’ve toyed with a few historical WIPs, mostly with the expectation that historical games will have some inherent aspects that make them more niche and less widely accessible than a game that emphasized romance, horror, or the fantastical. I don’t begrudge that. I think niches have their own rewards.

I think there is something I’d call a research-trap… where research is necessary to appeal to some readers will necessarily be off-putting to others. Example, I love Divided We Fall but I wouldn’t recommend it to someone unless I already knew they had some knowledge, or a lot of interest in learning about 1930s Spain. I think so much value of the story would be lost and the choices would become far more dull without some of the background knowledge of the period. Knowledge of love is shared by 99% of humanity and a writer/reader can draw on that; Knowledge of 1930s Spain is far less widely distributed and it can become a balancing act in the story.

Each genre has some trade-offs in its appeal to readership, but I think historical-themed games may have harsher ones.

Of course, good-writing can bridge any trade-off… but good writing is hard!

3 Likes
24

Historical CoG games face a problem that most other CoG games don’t face:

  1. Historic fiction has never been an immensely popular subject, even outside of this niche area of gaming.
  2. This makes it so historic fiction is effectively a niche within a niche, and it’s a genre that most of its fans prefer to have be relatively accurate to the history it is portraying.
  3. Writers for CoG have to balance the desire for accuracy with the desire for choice, and the desire for representation within the game.

Not a lot of writers are able to balance those desires, and that can show with the writing. As @Lys mentioned, there is also the issue of perceived quality. I know some of the writers frequent these forums, so I won’t say which games, but there are games mentioned here (and history-inspired fantasy games that weren’t mentioned here) that I think are among CoG’s best, and some I think are among CoG’s worst. Not necessarily because of writing skill, but because I think that some of the games struggle with tone, or offer too many variables, or are too shallow/deep regarding topics that should be the opposite.

I would also go so far as to argue that historic fantasy games should be counted as historic fiction, if we are counting The Eagle’s Heir and Cannonfire Concerto: games like Choice of the Vampire, Chronicon Apocalyptica, 7th Sea, Weyrwood, The Mysteries of Baroque, Silverworld, The Superlatives, Heart of the House, Demon Mark, Choice of the Pirate, Affairs of the Court, and Choice of Broadsides. Each of these games use history as a setting, inspiration, and/or aesthetic. Otherwise, I don’t think Eagle’s Heir or Cannonfire Concerto ought to be defined as historic fiction.

12 Likes
25

@Mary_Duffy
You forget that Tin Star is a historical game as well, in fact the most historically discussed game thus far and i think it sells massively, reaching 10k in google playstore with a paid to download option :slight_smile:

6 Likes
26

I think it wasn’t mentioned since it is a Hosted Game.

With that said, I am curious as to how much the historic Hosted Games sell in comparison to how much the CoG historic games sell.

4 Likes
27

Mary did mention that

Indeed. So far, there are three war HGs, a medieval HG and its sequel (I assuming they qualify) and the recent Gladiator HG, but beyond that, I cannot say.

1 Like
28

I think Chronicon is doing fine thus far, with 1k download already and 4.7 rating …

However i do think Chronicon is a good gamble and innovative in the sense that not many people know about the Old English under the rules of Saxons … theme like Robin Hood, Ivanhoe and king richard are considered Medieval Europe and most people’s mind run towards those settings…

Not many people will understand the Era of Old English since not many stories were based on that, if any at all…
Only the recent TV shows of Viking manage to introduce viewers to the history of that Era … and there need some research where England those days were divided into 4 kingdoms , and Wessex was the old cspital…

Hence it is actually a unique experience for @r_davis to come out with a story on that Era :slight_smile:

3 Likes
29

So it sounds like the popularity of the historic games are less about them being historic games and more about writing quality, setting, and making it a game that feels like it has choices that matter?

Although, I do think that we have to better define what we consider to be historic games. Chronicon is very much fantasy as much as it is history, so do we count it as proof that a historic fiction game can succeed?

5 Likes
30

I’m not convinced games like chronicon and Pendragon are really historical fiction. They’re more fantasy with a historical setting aren’t they?

2 Likes
31

It really depends on your definition of historic fiction. There is a subgenre known as historic fantasy, that I would argue Chronicon falls under, since it has a very clearly defined era it belongs in. Pendragon, however, is general fantasy and medieval Europe–you can’t pinpoint when in medieval history it is set.

I’m under the impression that this conversation is more focused on realist historic fiction, however. I think if we’re interested in looking at how historic fantasy games (such as the ones I listed) do, it will change the scope of this dialogue, hence my question as to whether or not Chronicon can count here

7 Likes
32

To be fair, i think Chronicon could count as a historical game , as long as it had a clear historical setting of its era, its place and historical event that happen :slight_smile:

And don’t forget , if we want to pinpoint an actual real historical game, most likely it had to be gender lock males … but games like Tin Star allow the Marshal to be a female as well , that’s why i think if a games invent an alternative story which set in actual historical event, it should count as one :slight_smile:

33

I agree that Chronicon is historic fiction, I’m just not sure it should be considered in this conversation, which seems to be veering more towards realistic historic fiction.

Tin Star I think proves that you can have female and nonbinary protagonists without ruining the feel of a historically accurate story. I suspect it’s because the game sets the genders of all other characters, so their roles feels static and allows them to have their roles more heavily involve their gender.

3 Likes
34

That is one reason why i like when ģames set the characters gender and roles , instead of flipping it… it will be better when these characters respond to MC of different gender with different reply … it will feel more natural or realistic :slight_smile:

But about your earlier question , i think Tales of two Cranes , who based on chinese historical event is coming out soon … but in truth will it be considered actual hostorical game ?, i think lots of the characters and events are fictional as well :-):thinking:

4 Likes
35

Liu Bang and Xiang Yu were both real people, and I’m pretty sure the war was too.
Tale of Two Cranes would fall under the same category as Chronicon, I think. Possibly more historical, though, since I’m not sure if Chronicon’s plot was set around an actual war/period like Two Cranes is (unless the Vikings vs English conflict counts?)

4 Likes
36

Hahaha in addition of viking vs english, Aetherad was also a king , although i am not sure whether it is the same person, he died and success by King Alfred - when Lioba was not the Queen :-):stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Yupe i agree Two cranes will have more historical events … however i don’t think Liu Bang had children fighting with him :-):joy: i do think it is going to be great…

3 Likes
37

I think there are 2 main problem with historical fiction: values dissonance and historical accurancy.
Ex. for values dissonance: Ancient Greeks, they are one of the two civilization (along with the Romans) who built the Western Culture with the democracy, the philosophy, the fight agaist tyrants… but they were also one of most xenophobic, racist, mysoginous civilization of the ancient world; they also justify slavery and despite they somewhat accepted homosexuality they were homophobic by today standards, even their democracy was totalitarian (they were free in public but they weren’t in private)
So the problem is how to write the values dissonance without breaking the historical accurancy and the reader immersion? And even if you manage to, Are the readers ready to accept it?
Then there are the problem of historical controversial real people.
Ex. Julius Caesar: Depending on which historian you ask, he is either the ancient Roman Adolf Hitler or the ancient Rome Roosevelt

An other issue is the nowadays it seems there are more alternative history fiction and fantasy with pseudo historical setting than actual historical fiction to me. (You are free to make my mind change on this one)

3 Likes
38

The historical themes and settings aren’t the problem. They’re simply a tool - a tool that I feel is often not used to its full potential. Like @Lys said, sometimes they feel shallow – it often feels like the historical aspects are just a flat backdrop that there’s just to say there’s a setting. It doesn’t actually feel like it’s set in whatever era it’s in (sometimes because the setting seems too removed from the plot, sometimes because the characters don’t really act like they belong in that setting, etc.) and once you’ve destroyed that aspect of suspension of disbelief, everything else begins to unravel as well.

And I do think size plays a factor – there’s a reason why Pillars of the Earth is over 800 pages and also has sequels. There’s also a reason why something like The Ballad of Buster Scruggs is an anthology with short stories. I feel the best historical stories often either dive into the setting, with its good and bad, and give a full account of the issues of the day (or at least the major ones that would concern the plot), or they are short enough that it’s fine to skip around issues or quickly touch on them before turning to something else.

I also think it has to do with whatever era it’s set in. Some settings are simply more popular than others – Victorian England is more popular than middle Medieval England. The Wild West is more popular than the Gilded Age.

I agree. I mean, would you put Spielburg’s Lincoln and Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter into the exact same category? Yes, because both are 100% fact. No, and it wouldn’t be fair to say historical dramas about Lincoln are unpopular because historical fantasy-horror didn’t do that well.

As for me, I prefer historical settings over modern ones, so I’m glad Choice of Games and Hosted Games has them even if they aren’t as popular overall. :relaxed:

8 Likes
39

I object to Cannonfire Concerto bring classified as historical fantasy, given that it’s not set in our universe but in a made-not world. With parallels and inspirations, yes, but still another world!

With actual historical fantasy - I like being able to read about the era without worrying about bumping into horrible and off-putting ~era appropriate~ misogyny/violence/homophobia. (Side note, our perception of history is filtered through Victorian et al historian’s values, nothing is fact, queer history erasure etc.)

So when I read historical fantasy that’s got magic, or loads of cool LGBT+ stuff, or dragons (looking at you, Temeraire series!) - it’s set in “Our World But Different”, so it’s just a History AU, and that’s fine with me. YMMV on immersion-breaking, I guess!

5 Likes
40

For what it’s worth, almost every person, place, and book in Chronicon was real and at least similar to its historical counterpart. Thorolf, a witch at Ailsworth, Æthelflæd in modern-day Chester, Æthelred II, and even the Tremulous Hand were things, although I obviously adapted them all in a fantasy context. So I don’t know if that counts as “historical fiction” or not.

11 Likes