Hero or Villain: Genesis (feedback thread. #2457 update on Armageddon, DLC, etc...)

Hosted Games Works In Progress
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2592

I can think of one suggestion right now, in Hero or Villain: Genesis, The side character Charlotte has weird dialogues when you want to know more about her (I think that is when you go out to a gallery exibition with her? I think it is correct because you don’t get many interaction with Charlotte and this is the first one). Her dialogue in that situation sounds very…Chatgpt…I feel weird feading those lines, not natural. Im not saying it is Chatgpt, but it sounds like it. She narrates about herself like a machine.

Second thing I want to suggest is that Adrao should spread the character interaction into smaller scenes. Instead of putting all the dialogues into one place (when you want to ask and know more about a character, this is espcially true for HoV: Genesis and HoV: Battle Royale), Adrao can randomize or at least break down into smaller pieces. Specifically, when asking to know more about a character, limit chooseable optionsto 2 to 3 out of 7, when the limit is hit move on the next scene, this will force the reader to decide what is most important to ask, to know, creating curiosity about the character. This also makes interaction short and helps the pace of the story, and then after a few scenes, introduce a random situation with the character again. This smaller building is more natural and effective, I think, at connecting with the characters. Both Book 1 and 2 of HoV series have this problem. For example, in book 1, when meeting a new character at work, you can ask a ton of questions to a character which really makes me feel not wanting to know more about the character because too many options, too many lines to read. It’s better to still keep all the askable options but limit how many options readers can choose in one scene to 2 to 3 questions. On the other hand, Battle Royale also suffers the same thing because you can only learn and ask about character background in training time, there’s no interaction with the characters outside training time.

2593

I hear what you say. The “boring” dialogue/personality of many of the characters in my games has long been criticised (not only book 1 and 2, but basically all my games). I have tried to improve a bit over the years, but at the heart of the problem is the fact that most of the characters for me are “non-descriptive” NPCs. I don’t really create an image of them in my head, they are just like “decor” (most of them have the same personality as a plant). A few characters -I guess the one that are more memorable- are actually based on a person (or a mixture of 2 or 3 people), and I form a stronger image of them in my head. They also get more attention, more scenes, and them slowly showing you who they are. The others, like Charlotte, you can ask them a bunch of questions which provide a bit of flavour, but not much else.

I always thought that the characters in Book 2 were a bit better, but I guess it is still the same thing, as the ones that are more memorable are basically modelled on people (Joo is partially my wife, anybody who is watching “Beef” might recognise a bit of her!). I did try a bit more in book 2 at least, whereas Book 1… my problem at this point is that I created too many bland NPCs, and rewriting them all would take time (not just the writing time, but “thinking” time of how to better integrate each, etc). This is what I often call “structural” changes in the games.

I try to avoid “structural” changes as much as possible, as they prevent me from trying to move forward with my other games. Adding an extra line of dialogue, or tweaking things is easy. But, the code in my games is horrendously complex, so each time I change something it can have unforseen consequences, so I often have to spend quite a bit of time thinking (also as my games have been out for so many years that I sometimes start to forget how or why I coded things in a certain way)

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2596

Best advise for improving character dialogue is bouncing it back and forth with friends. Or just reading it out loud to hear how it flows.

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2597

Hi, general mod note that saying a character sounds like chatgpt is not constructive. Please find other ways of expressing dialogue feedback.

Suggesting that authors use genAI in their projects is also non constructive, and use of genAI disqualifies games from Hosted Games publication.

Thank you.

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2598

@adrao

After thinking more about our previous discussion, I realized that the reason I keep talking about this issue is because I genuinely love your work and want to see it succeed even more.

First, I want to say that I think your greatest strength as an author is not character writing, but systems, mechanics, worldbuilding, progression, and logical consistency. You have a talent for creating worlds that feel like they operate according to understandable rules. The power systems in your games are some of the best I’ve seen in IF. The stars, powers, factions, progression, politics, and worldbuilding in Hero or Villain are incredibly engaging. I’ve read many superpower stories, both IF and traditional fiction, and none have quite captured the same feeling for me.

What Hero or Villain does exceptionally well is the fantasy of becoming someone extraordinary. I don’t play HoV primarily to romance characters or make friends. I play it because it makes me feel like I am growing into something greater. One line that always stuck with me was:

“These problems are beneath me.”

That feeling is something very few stories manage to create.

Because the power fantasy, worldbuilding, and mechanics are so strong, I can accept weaknesses in characterization much more easily. In fact, I’ve come to realize that flaws are part of what make an author’s work unique. If Book 3 and Book 4 continue in a similar style, I will still happily read them.

However, I think the characterization issue becomes much more noticeable in your other works.

For example, Tokyo Wizard felt much more average to me. Not because the worldbuilding or writing was bad, but because there wasn’t another major strength compensating for the weaker character interactions. In HoV, I can overlook that because the power systems and progression are carrying so much of the experience. In Tokyo Wizard, character interactions become more important, so the issue stands out much more.

After reading your explanation, I think I understand the root cause better. You mentioned that many NPCs are “non-descriptive” in your mind and that memorable characters are often based on real people. That makes a lot of sense to me.

I don’t think the problem is dialogue itself. I think the problem begins earlier: some NPCs don’t seem fully formed before they enter the story.

One possible solution could be creating a character sheet for important or recurring NPCs before writing them. Not necessarily anything complicated, just things like:

  • Background
  • Personality
  • Strengths
  • Flaws
  • Beliefs
  • Goals
  • Motivations
  • Fears
  • Secrets
  • Quirks

The goal wouldn’t be to force complexity, but to help create a stronger mental image of the character. Once the character feels more concrete, the dialogue and interactions may naturally become more distinct.

I also think smaller recurring interactions work better than large information dumps. Some of the most memorable characters in fiction aren’t memorable because of one long conversation. They’re memorable because we gradually learn who they are across many smaller scenes.

Last, I don’t think HoV needs major structural changes. The foundation is already excellent. I just think that if future books continue improving character depth and interaction design, while maintaining the strengths you already have, your stories could become truly exceptional.

Either way, I’m excited for Book 3 and Book 4. Keep cooking. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

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2599

Hi, I appreciate all the effort, but the essence of the problem doesn’t change. By nature, I enjoy building complex mechanics into my games (I am an engineer by training), and I see my games more like RPGs than interactive novels (if that makes sense). Many people like the “sandbox” nature of my games, which is what I have always tried to do. But, that also results in many of the characters being “shallow” (my previous metaphor is that they are like plants -mere decor- but it is possible to use other analogies, as you did). Not all characters are like that, some are more fleshed out (the ones that either I consider to be the “main” other characters in the story, or the ones which have been fan favourites -which I then start to write more for-). Trying to create complex back stories, motivations, etc, for all the NPCs in the game is… just too much. I mean, I could do it, but again that would be a distraction from trying to advance my other games.

Essentially, the dilemma for me with my writing is that I can either make my existing games better, or write new ones. Making small changes is easy (adding an extra option here, a new line of dialogue there), but writing character stories and motivations for all NPCs would be major work, which I am not sure is better than focusing on advancing HoV: Armageddon. I am a one-man team, and while I understand that there are ways to “make my life easier” (and that is a conversation that has a separate thread in the forums, with all the caveats and legal issues involved in them, as @HarrisPS pointed out, and any discussion about that should go into that thread, I will not respond other than what I have done here), I have a day-time job (tbh my wife complains that I actually have 3 daytime jobs, and that I should slow down with them), and I write as a hobby for my enjoyment. If I were to make my job easier, where would the enjoyment be? (and I want to emphasize that I do accept -as I have always done- all criticisms of my games, which are valid, and I accept yours -as you clearly highlight what you like about my games, and where I fall short. I am very happy always with criticism, as even the negative sides make me think harder about how to improve!)

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2600

I’d say complex if not overly complex backstories and all are not even useful when they are not needed.
It’s the old crux of ‘character building’ questions like ‘what is this characters favourite cocktail/meal/band?’ ‘What was their first pet’ etc.
Not only might these questions be completely irrelevant, they are draining the way some sell them as ‘the true way to build characters’

But enough rambling.

Fleshing out characters should mean you have a good grasp of why they are in the story, and the parts of their backstory and personality relevant to what’s going on.
This usually gives a good sense of how characters talk, too, helping greatly with dialogue.

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2601

So glad I’m not the only one who thinks this. (I tried, once. It didn’t work. At best, I’m going to be ‘how should I know? I haven’t written them yet!’, at worst I’m going to start actively hate writing.)

What I like best in this game are the emergent narratives (I have a villain who was so bad at being a villain that he ended up a hero, and a hero who became villain because he needed more money for his mom).

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2602

I see, thanks for taking the time to reply :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

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2603

:grinning_face:

I am glad you like that aspect of the game, I did spend a bit of time thinking about how to convey the greyness of different character motivations, and the role money plays in the game.

@MeltingPenguins I agree that having a bunch of questions like “do you like cats or dogs” is not really the best way to define characters. Some of the NPCs do reply to those questions, but for many it is just a bit of “fill”, to add a bit extra to the game, yet I still feel it is an afterthought. I don’t want to remove what is there, but any new characters I add I do try to make them a bit better. Then again, I seem to add too many new characters to all my games, many without a real reason to be there (other than just being “decor”).

Anyway, I am also just rambling…

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2604

oh talking about motivations and moral grayness, now I remember, you did that part so well Adrao. I don’t want to rob money from the bank car but I’m so broke, plus mother keep making me guilty about her medical bill that I have no choice but to shatter my hero image, and everything from there I started thinking like a villain, but yeah, I couldn’t believe it that being a villain is so fun, especially smashing Crusader Moon’s head and capturing Yuki like a pokemon. Such a great experience