I didn’t know they were ESL but I know there’s a lot of people like that on here so I had just figured that when I had played the demo and just kept that assumption when it released.
I just want to emphasize to everyone that the issue here was the inclusion of AI generated art and writing in the final submission of the game, not that the author was ESL.
There are many ESL writers that do not use AI assistance, and they deserve our support for their accomplishments and successes.
Edit: Another clarification: Breaking copyright is breaking the law. Full stop.
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Copyright concerns go beyond being sued for infringement, as @VilsBae just pointed out on the other thread. I agree that under the present state of the law, it’s unlikely that any content creators would succeed in suing the author or HG for infringing copyright. (Though that’s still far from settled and will probably end up with different levels of legal vulnerability in different jurisdictions where CoG/HG sells its work.)
But because AI generated work is currently not copyrightable under US law, defending the game’s copyright by e.g. sending takedown notices to pirate sites that profit off HG work immediately becomes a dubious legal quagmire.
So far the courts haven’t been quick to treat AI as infringement – but nor have they been particularly inclined to treat its fruits as copyrightable. An author who represents AI-generated work as their copyrighted creation is not legally “in the clear,” even if they hadn’t signed a contract asserting that they would specifically not do that.
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I read the whole thing, and I thought it was pretty apparent the author used AI to assist them with the work. And honestly, I didn’t mind it at all. I have actually used ChatGPT to see how it would play out as a COG story, and it was fairly similar in style. However, there are some aspects that AI just can’t get, so there are definitely some elements here that the author had a strong hand in creating the narrative. For example, ChatGPT will become repetitive and kind of cycle through things. And all of the characters will be very one-note and have no personality and no backstory. So, it was very evident to me that the author had worked to create the characters themselves, and I applaud them for that.
I completely get that creative people want to keep AI out of certain aspects of the process. But the reality is that these tools are here, and we are going to have to learn to live with them. In fact, many of us use AI tools all the time. For example, I have been using Grammarly for years. While that is not as generative as ChatGPT is, it is still an AI tool and a very useful one IMO.
A couple of lessons here to take for the team behind the scenes of COG and HG:
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I think there needs to be a re-examining of the beta testing process. I’m assuming this game made it through your process and was approved by whatever powers that be to be placed on the app for purchase. This goes back to that crazy football game, Last Quarterback, that had no linear storyline, poorly done coding, and repetitive text throughout. At least Halls of Sorcery was properly coded with a complete narrative. For me, that’s a far superior product at the end of the day.
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There should probably be a re-examining of AI tools and what that looks like in the near future. As I already stated, these tools are here and not going anywhere any time soon. What does that look like and how can these tools be beneficial as well as harmful for creatives in the community? We have only scratched the surface of what these tools are capable of and I hope there’s a good plan in place for the community for when that happens that doesn’t punish creatives who might use them as an assist.
For me, I have no dog in this fight. Totally see both sides of the argument in the debate of usage. But as an avid reader here, again, I would much rather have gotten to keep this story and would genuinely re-read it than that football game story.
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I think this problem is more visible for Hosted Games specifically. I do wonder what is the fix for that, allowing more people to beta test? I wonder if someone from testing did say the text felt AI generated, COG could have probably put the release on hold in that case, or maybe they were afraid of starting a witch hunt
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The beta tests by Hosted Games authors are not the CoG tests you see Abby posting about.
Hosted Games betas are exclusively run by the authors themselves.
Is that a problem? Maybe, but it is all on the author.
Hosted Games doesn’t support authors in any way, until actual submission, (if you are deserving they give you some copy-edit support and such)
But the WiP is entirely the responsibility of the author. How successful that is depends on the author and the author alone.
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That would require HG to start judging submissions on quality, before accepting them for publication, on a level that they just haven’t done so far.
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Ayo???
I wondered how it got published so fast, I guess that explains it.
If the author is allowed to publish again in the future, I wish them all the best.
But goddamn
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That’s something that might need to be revisited, unfortunately. Pulling a HG title and issuing refunds is pretty damaging to the brand, and I’m sure is something the company’s not keen to do again.
With that said, I don’t have an answer for how to catch AI-gen HG material in future. As we’ve talked about on different threads, some of the things people confidently declare as signs of GPT authorship (overuse of “embarked” or “amidst,” or excessively vague/purple prose more generally) will throw a lot of false positives. As @Lan noted, if you have enough of an author’s writing handy to spot a huge contrast between things they’ve clearly written themselves and the prose of most of the game text, it can be a giveaway. That’ll catch ESL writers a lot more often than native speakers, though–for the latter, the quality gap will often be more questionable, and pressing into it will be more witch hunt-y. And if nearly the whole game was written using AI, beta testers won’t always have much grounds for comparison.
As Lady Luck said, HG has never screened for prose quality above a super-basic threshold, and doesn’t have the institutions in place to do so. But something new is going to be needed to prevent disasters like this… and I don’t think a “don’t ask don’t tell” policy about AI use is going to cut it.
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I agree. Yet, this is an initiative that needs to come from and be driven by HG and CoG staff.
Individuals that are invested in the community can only do so much on their own, and I have made my views on testing clear time and time again over the years.
I don’t have answers for screening AI, except perhaps now, more than ever, getting to know an author and their work seems to be the only sane path to follow.
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I agree. Even if that mean I will never pass the cut to publish here. But I prefer being denied for my merits or lack of that cheating butchering the works of others using Ai.
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Honestly, it’s kinda sad that - from some posts - it seems like some people see art/writing not as a craft that takes time and effort… Rather, authors are seen as no more than content dispensers. And from that POV, sure, AI makes tons of sense. As it can “help” produce more content, faster.
But if that’s where the public opinion is, then Mara is right and art is dead 
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Screening for quality would not stop people from being able to use gen AI to generate their story.
But it would force them to at least do some editing passes for content and coherency of style.
I do not know whether or not that is a good way to go.
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As someone who struggles to find many people willing to test games that’s not a viable solution at all, point blank, no way. Only a small % of games get more than a handful of people willing to test these days. If you look at this game in question it actually did have at least a few people willing to read it (more than many on here!), but it still wasn’t exactly overflowing with huge numbers of people wanting to beta it. Most HG WIP authors are not limiting access to their games!!!
AI can sometimes be tricky to pick up by a reader especially if you didn’t know the quirks to look for, or are thrown off by other factors like ESL assumptions anyway. Going out on a limb here, but without the AI artwork (which is generally a bit easier to spot issues if you know what to look for) there’s a good chance this game may have slipped through uncontested.
There are AI checkers about, although they’re not 100% reliable and may need a recheck by a human to confirm. Many universities now run assignments through AI and plagiarism checkers to flag anything potentially suspect for further investigation before it is given to the assessor.
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I didn’t realize getting testers was an issue. Based on the way they write the emails on what it takes to be a tester, I assumed that there were plenty of people signing up. I would personally love to be a beta tester, but it sounded like it would be too much of a hassle to meet the criteria, so I never bothered to volunteer.
You are conflating CoG and the company organized betas for CoG titles and HG, which requires a “public” beta test (WiP threads) for at least part of the game the author is writing.
They are not the same thing.
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Hosted in simple terms publish freelance writers that make their own game make their own betas, art and edition.
Cog hires professional writers give them an advance to write a story they prepare. Cog handles edition, art and create the beta testing they use throughout email.
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Okay. Well, I’m a reader who purchases a lot of product from both apps. So, to be perfectly honest, I have no idea what you mean when you say that. I am not an author and I do not engage with or know people who work in these processes behind the scenes.
Right. THAT I do understand. However, it appears the processes that are in place are not working if something that doesn’t meet the standards like this was allowed to fall through the cracks. I don’t think it is unwarranted to say that those processes should probably be reevaluated.
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If you want to test a HG WIP pick one on the forum 
. Most have no requirements except to ask you comment in some way about the game.
I think you’re mixing up official COG game betas.
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