Growing Game Lengths

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Did a hosted game, but I feel this applies to me, especially with Fallen Hero: Rebirth that just keeps growing.

Do I regret it? Yes and no. I don’t regret it, because the reception have been amazing, and people have really connected to the story and the themes in there. It wouldn’t work as a shorter game, not with what I am trying to accomplish.

On the other hand, my mistake was turning a novel into interactive fiction, not realizing how much that would make it balloon. If I had gone with a short story, I could have fitted it around 100 000 words, and been done a lot faster, and learned coding a lot better. Would I have got the same reception? Probably not, since that kind of story would be focused around an event rather than a personal journey. I have a lot of ideas for smaller stories, but since I have now committed to this monster there’s only one way to go.

Sitting here, 32 000 words into a single session with a psychiatrist and nowhere near finished, I am regretting it a little. As I am regretting adding two new RO’s and a lot more paths than I planned. Will I regret it when I’m done?

No. I want to make this story justice.

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This is my belief - each writer is a unique producer. Louis L’ amour was a prolific Western writer that churned out book after book after book. Most of his books were “slim” compared to others but he was a master of his particular Western story.

There has never been another Louis L’ amour in Western paperback writing, although some have attempted to imitate his success (on all the levels) and this is a lesson I see in gaming as well.

@malinryden’s product is uniquely their own just as @MultipleChoice;s stories are his own. I would not expect either author to start imitating each other even though both have solid cores of fans that love their unique product.

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I can’t say I don’t prefer longer games, but I feel bad putting pressure on authors. And I’d be concerned that people might add filler to shorter games that don’t really need it in an effort to meet length demands.

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Just out of curiosity (and this may warrant another topic), what is considered “dirty” and “clean” code?

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Interesting. I see your point, but how would your fan-base react to medium-length games if they’re used to longer word counts?

This is where I am with my games. I want to write 200k word games but if I include fewer stats, less paths, etc., I fear bad reviews. I’ve already set expectations.

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Scroll through this thread from the top, there are examples in it. Even though I’ve tried to avoid making the discussion about code efficiency.

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My honest assessment is that your fans would be open to whatever you write because “you have earned it.” There would be those that would push back - there is always fears and unrealistic expectations on the part of some but as long as you reassured your core that you were not “abandoning” your past I think it would be received well.

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I don’t know about that! Lots of folks loved Robots, but did not pick up Choice of Alexandria. They came back for Magics, though…

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I still think you can’t really separate those two. A user who prefers 300k+ games and finds a string of games to feel really short to them might (might!) abstain from further purchases.

This is a pure hypothetical, but if you have a 300k+ game that, efficiently coded, would stand at 200k+ or less it will easily show i think.

…I can’t speak to this anymore because I think we just disagree, but as I’ve said many times, coding efficiency should not be an issue for Choice of Games titles published in the last several years.

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A shorter story for you could be loved by fans. Always you maintain your quality and respect for your characters. For instance a short most focus on story than game as secret life as assassin for Rachael. Or the life of Vincent when outbreak started that would sell a lot like with 109,000-200,000 range

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I am afraid I did not enjoy Choice of Alexandria as much as Kevin’s other titles because of several factors outside the scope of this discussion. I feel that comparison is faulty because of those other factors. Length had nothing to do with my view of Choice of Alexandria.

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I was just making a little joke :wink:

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There’s a blog post on the subject that may be useful, with more specific examples. Well worth reading if you haven’t already!

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Some of this can also be perception based. Someone mentioned the original Choice of Broadsides, and the new Foraker game, and some complaints were about the new one being ‘shorter’. Now, Foraker did have the heavier word count, but consisted primarily on the ship. Broadsides took the player to shore, where they could get married, etc. if the player wanted. I would guess that the reason Broadsides felt longer is because the player had the feeling that more time passed for their character, maybe even filling in some mental backstory.

As for costs, there is a point of diminishing returns on costs. Some have pointed out some of it (time to write, etc.) I know the editor probably used for official CoGs also costs a pretty penny, and if those word counts go higher, that is more money to recoup.

And there is a reason most visual novels are between $15-$30. Art (both character sprites, backgrounds, and CGs) aren’t cheap, at least if you want to pay the artist a decent amount. For that matter if you hire someone to make original music, that also costs. Yes, one could use royalty-free music, then you get complaints how it sounds like other game X.

As for gameplay length/replays, I don’t know if there is really anyway for you to track. I mean, I can point out where I would have even 50+ hours on a CoG/HG…but that is because at the end of the day, I may be mentally wiped and not wish to play something relying on reflexes, etc, and I like to revisit a story.

I know if I’m curious about how long someone plays, at least on Steam, I will look to see what Achievements were made, etc. Admittedly, this doesn’t tell you the exact numbers, but it gives you an idea on how many playthroughs those people did. (You could sort of correlate this with like episodic games, and how many people played episode 1, but not the last one)

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Honestly, consumers don’t generally directly care what something cost to make and there’s not actually a uniform standard for how price corresponds to production costs. Some industries have a huge gap, some have razor-thin profit margins. The only rule is that the company needs to make enough money to stay in buisness, and for electronic media most of the expense is upfront and each additional copy is relatively cheap so selling few copies at a high price and many copies at a low price are equally viable.

I have absolutely no idea what the economically optimal price point is, but I will say the price I’m willing to pay for something does not rise linearly with length. Also, I’m more likely to buy a two part game for $5 each than a single game for $10; I would buy and play part 1 first, and then if I didn’t like it I wouldn’t buy part 2.

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I would still buy whatever they produce in the future regardless of length. Tallyho wasn’t just long but amazingly well written with funny charming characters and great replay value.

In my opinion, the value of choice games is being able to make a story feel like my own, like a novel that I can influence. I don’t even really think about how long the story is. Who cares if a game has 500k words if the story isn’t compelling?

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my view on the game length is mixed
if its a standalone game they have only so much time to startup and progress the story so longer is indeed better.
in a expanding saga the writer has time to tell the story over a longer period of time in the first game they can introduce the gave over a longer period and try to snag the players attention and dont have to wrap up the story as much just this first arc so they can deal with a slightly shorter book normally id say the intro book and the completion book are slightly longer than the rest of the saga but all in all the saga is more comfortable leaning closer to the shorter end than a standalone would.

all this being said what matters most is quality of story, most stories i prefer to be over 120k in words, but lot of words and meh story that i end up skipping paragraphs from boredom? well thats just a waste.

generally if its over 120k ill buy it caring very little about the price.
when it gets below 100k is when i look at the price and think more about getting it. is it a genera that im not a big fan of? does it have a higher sticker price or a lower sticker price?
if its a lower sticker price and a genre that i somewhat like and im not just meh about then yea fine.

because quality can only shine so much in a demo often times i have to rely on is it a author i know and is it long.

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Non, rien de rien, je ne regrette rien…

Rebels is written to be a big game, and I expect the remaining four instalments to be just as long as the first.

It has to my surprise also been fairly remunerative–not to the point of paying as much as my day job, but I can foresee a reasonable return over the lifetime sales of the game. As I’ve speculated elsewhere, I think that’s more to do with genre than length. A fantasy epic evoking Martin, Sanderson & co comes with a readymade audience; lots of the more original or genre-bending CoGs won’t have that advantage.

I’ve no idea how much of the current fan base will stick around for the time it takes me to write the next one. I’ll continue to write what I enjoy–which does tend to be the longer, more elaborate srories–and see how it’s received.

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