Gender-locking ROs, gender flipping, and importance of gender in relationships

[Fiogan]

@OrigamiPencil

I hope that doesn’t just make it sound like I’m creating flat characters because I’m working hard not to. I think people who don’t discriminate based on gender are still fully fleshed out and interesting, and our interactions are best when they move away from such superficial levels.

Yes! Exactly.

@tw1stedmind See…my issue here is that, despite physiological differences, so much of the practical difference between genders is far more determined by culture and training and expectations and local examples than truly by brain chemistry. (There aren’t, for instance, different versions of the MBTI for nonbinary people and women and men for a reason.)

I feel strongly about the subject partly due to personal experience. I was born on one continent, and was told consistently how masculine I was, how I wasn’t very feminine, how I thought like a guy and was strong like a guy and spoke like a guy and etc. etc. etc… It was all quite depressing. I’m a female, and I like to think that I’m a perfectly good female. Just because I fit the ‘guy’ stereotypes for this particular culture doesn’t make me, or my traits, any less female.

Then I moved to another continent and lived there for a while. Rather to my surprise, I was praised for being very feminine and a wonderful example of the higher qualities of the female nature. I hadn’t changed a thing. Culture and expectations and viewpoints changed. I even had a small handful of serious marriage proposals, rather to my surprise.

Then I moved to a third continent and worked there for a while. No-one commented on my gender, one way or the other, ever! So nice. And I just did whatever I did, like always.

Currently back on that first continent for the moment, although several thousand miles away from my place of birth. Now I’m back to being told how masculine I am whenever anyone thinks it’s convenient. I honestly find it sort of offensive.

I’m also often mistaken for a male online. I used to not correct people, because they’d start treating me differently if they found out I was female (and then deny that anyone would possibly treat me differently in such liberated circles! just because of my gender!). Or, worse yet, told me that of course you treat males and females differently. That annoys me.

Anyway, so I deal with all of this quite enough for my tastes in real life. If I’m going to play a science fiction or a fantasy or an alternate world, I’m very happy to play a genderblind one, thank you very much.

I don’t usually like to share quite such personal things on a public forum, but I felt it was relevant. And who knows, perhaps someone out there has experienced the same sort of thing and is one gender, and is tired of being told how much like whatever-other-gender they are, because of how ‘gender traits’ are perceived. Physiologically or otherwise.

I also rather liked Choice of Romance when playing as a male. I didn’t sense any ‘uncanny valley’ vibes from it as male that I didn’t as female.

@OrigamiPencil

truth be told I’m a bit of a wuss and don’t want to deal with or write gender-biased characters. I’m in an industry that is saturated with it and I respond to and discuss this all the time with colleagues, friends and mentors. It’s a constant battle.

Yes, that. Me too. Not my industry, in my case, but my environment.

@OrigamiPencil

If I sound like I’m on a soap box please just chuck some tomatoes my way.

Err, is there room on that soapbox for two? I’ll also humbly submit to tomatoes.

[DreamingGames]

@Eiwynn, who are you speaking to?

[Fiogan]

@Eiwynn

why would you want to write a character that shifts according to what others wish of them

I do want that, though. I’m very attached to one of my early characters who can be any gender, any orientation, in my first WiP. I had good feedback on that character at the time, too. In fact, you can even pick that character’s personality to some degree.

I suppose it’s partly a difference in game design philosophy. I don’t think my supporting cast’s creation is particularly sacred, and I don’t mind at all if they look different in different readers’ minds. In a way, it’s like letting readers write their own fanfiction, which I think is not bad!

For instance: Someone commented the other day that they were really fond of one of my characters, Character A (who is 37 or so and sort of interesting looking but certainly not traditionally-Western-good-looking). Then the person said they headcanoned A as fifteen years younger and handsome. That’s fine with me! It’s still the character. I could have written them with this exact personality and have them be younger and ‘handsome’, in my opinion.

I do like to think I at least try to make my characters interactive and deep, too, although of course I can always improve. I do hope to improve.

I loved @Lucid’s system of picking the gender of characters in Lost Heir, for instance. I loved having Karl and Thea and the rest of my crew just the way they are, and they’re vivid enough for me, to be sure.

And malleability of the NPCs/world, as opposed to malleability of just the MC and results of the MC and MC’s actions, is certainly a legitimate discussion. Different authors would, I imagine, have different perspectives on it. But that probably really is a discussion for another thread.

(And now I really want to write a game where I can ask a player at the beginning: “You’re a librarian! Do you live in a: steampunk world full of gaslights and crinolines! #Urban jungle with pistol-packing fairies six inches tall and werewolves on patrol! #Desert civilisation with stone temples and palm trees! #Renaissance world full of ornate architecture and murals!” And see how far I could take that. What a lot of coding that would be, though. Hmm… :D )

[OrigamiPencil]

@Fiogan

despite physiological differences, so much of the practical difference between genders is far more determined by culture and training and expectations and local examples than truly by brain chemistry. (There aren’t, for instance, different versions of the MBTI for nonbinary people and women and men for a reason.)

I don’t really know the science behind it but I believe any thought based differences that exist between people on the gender spectrum (you can tell I don’t know what I’m talking about) are mostly due to social conditioning.

I know what you’re talking about @Fiogan . I’m half Japanese half Australian and there are some major differences in the way the two societies treat and view me and believe to be ‘true’. It really is interesting looking at how gender is depicted in different cultures. One friend told me that when she visited family in China they were shocked that she could whistle. She was actually told to stop because it’s a skill for men to have, not women.

Here I was saying I’m sick of it but I’ve started discussing it again…

@Eiwynn Err, you’re right. I’ve gotten off track and will end it there. Bringing it back to the original post, I was interested in what you wrote here;

@Eiwynn

I think changing a character’s development solely based on reader’s preference is doing the story a disservice, and in extension, the reader a disservice.

Do you think it’s still a disservice to have a gender flipping character if their key formative experiences involved events that weren’t gender relevant or specific? For example, if one of the RO’s main personal conflicts involves following their dream job and not the one their parents feel has the most prestige. Would this still feel wrong?

I understand that your character’s situation is specific sexuality-wise, in which case it makes absolute sense not to change something so important. Argh I don’t even know what I think anymore. Everyone has such good points.

I think for me, some of my characters (especially the RO and PC) aren’t male or female when I write them so it’s easier for me to let the reader choose the gender. To me these characters aren’t male/female—they’re just people. People with stresses, fears, weaknesses and honourable traits.

[Laguz]

im chill w/ whatever so long as i got cute nbs

[ParrotWatcher]

@DreamingGames

Mostly because I am bi + ace in real life so I, of course, wants more representation, but also because a lot of the argument I have heard for people arguing against bi/pan love interest have been outright biphobic, or subtly biphobic.

I just want to point out that my main argument against bisexual ROs is that we need more outright gay ROs. I certainly don’t begrudge you your representation; I just want more of my own.

And this is basically the reason I don’t like characters whose gender (or indeed, orientation) depends on the player’s choices: if a straight person plays through, there’s no non-straight representation, and I think that (good) non-straight representation is vital.

[DreamingGames]

@Fiogan

I loved @Lucid’s system of picking the gender of characters in Lost Heir, for instance. I loved having Karl and Thea and the rest of my crew just the way they are, and they’re vivid enough for me, to be sure.

And malleability of the NPCs/world, as opposed to malleability of just the MC and results of the MC and MC’s actions, is certainly a legitimate discussion. Different authors would, I imagine, have different perspectives on it. But that probably really is a discussion for another thread.

I do actually think that the malleability of the NPCs are an important discussion when it comes to this. Because it reveals to very different approach to the story, both as a reader and as a writer.

I for example focus on the narrative. What kind of story do I want to tell, as such. Each RO have a distinctinct narrative path, but I want every MC to have the option of playing that path, as long as they qualify stats and morality wise. That is why I have the weird option of having gendershifting NPCs, but not always according to the protagonists orientation. (I am not even sure I ask the protagonist orientation.) The NPCs have a certain narrative role to fill and a story to drag the MC into, I don’t want the story to be locked out do to the progaonist gender, because I want every player to have fun, but I might lock them out do to their orientation. (@ParrotWatcher, whom I suspect of mostly playing males, would for example, properly not go for the Mad Scientiest since she would likely default to a woman for him. The handler meanwhile would be a man.)

That is a very different approach making a game to @Eiwynn casting of character from something very defined, which again is different from @OrigamiPencil.

So I think that malleability level are important to discus also when it comes to gender, because it show how many different level of immersion can be. And how what breaks that immersion is different from reader to reader.

[OrigamiPencil]

@CodPor

Also, having an NPC who changes gender according to the player’s desires bothers me, especially in a setting where magical sex change is explicitly possible. Did Wakefield change sex in order to be more attractive to the protagonist?

Ah yeah, this was what I was originally thinking about and what FairyGodfeather mentioned when I made this topic. There’s something a little ethically jarring about making something so personal change for the benefit of the MC. Then again, it is a game and it’s done in order to address the issue of inclusivity for real people. So I do forgive it.

[DreamingGames]

On a completely unrelated note. All this talk about RO’s actually inspired me, and now there are five RO’s in my unofficial WIP instead of four.

So good discussion everybody.

[Sovereign2Lilith]

@OrigamiPencil

species-ism

Oh, that changes everything. Species is more important than gender in terms of RO. In Choice of the Dragon, I didn’t feel there was a difference between genders because a dragon is a dragon. Creature are not bound by human standards and have a more gender neutral air about them sometimes. Although, this does complicate the matting process.

You don’t have to focus on gender discrimination in your story if it’s not present in your game world or important, but gender will impact how the audience sees the RO.

On the malleability of characters, I think it’s kind of weird that a NPC joins the same club as you, likes everything you like just because you like it, and basically has no character of its own and is basically like a tumor attached to you and sucking out all of your character to build its own. . There was a crack dating game on itch.io that I never finished that placed you in the RO’s role and this other character was trying to pursue you. I don’t mind a dynamic character like the Arthor in Guenevere can change his personality slowly overtime, but it’s over years and years and is a little more realistic.

I also find it odd why a character who seems like they would not be interested in the MC tries to pursue MC. They seem fake and sketchy. Like Mitra in Nusantara that wanted a traditional woman who cooks and cleans and gives birth numerous times which is definitely not my MC. Or like in Taarradhin (bad game, I would not recommend) where the slave guy likes MC When the other slave girl is much better than MC, and it makes him seem like a gold digger just after MC’s wealth. Trash from Aloners is mean to MC for no reason and when MC decides to leave him, he suddenly wants to be nice probably only because he knows he’s lost the upper hand and he realizes we’d be good child producing fodder or something. I thought this was well done in Fool’s Helper with the business man. He had a logical and consistent reason for choosing MC over the other lady. MC accepted him quirks and all and he didn’t have to pretend to be something he’s not to please MC.

Since I’m getting a little off the gender topic, I’ll leave you with this video about 36 questions to make you fall in love (1-3, 8-10, and 14:18-16:50 minutes). The point is Zach platonicly loves his best friend, but they can’t be romantically in love because they’re both straight and the wrong gender for each other. However if Keith was somehow able to be gender switched to a female, that would have changed how their relationship developed (He’s kind of evasive and scared to get hurt around those he romantically likes as seen in the first segment).

Falling In Love As A Grown-Up • Real Mature Ep. 1

[FairyGodfeather]

What I’d thought of was a shape-shifting, genderqueer romantic option, who first appears to you as your preferred gender. They look exactly as you want them to look. Very much like Black Magic in Heroes Rise, or really most of the romantic options.

The main difference being, this is a character choosing, or being forced to conform to your ideals, happening within the story as opposed to a game mechanic.

Similar to: “Xavin had first appeared to the Runaways, taking on the form of a black male, but changed into a black female just for the sake of Karolina Dean, a lesbian whom she was to marry.”

Or playing along the ideas of the story of Ragnelle. Ragnelle’s from Arthurian legend, who has the opportunity to appear beautiful by day, loathesome by night, or the opposite, and she asks Gawain to choose which. I had wondered about a character who might ask you to pick if they were male or female in a similar fashion.

Or what if it’s the protagonist that has the opportunity to choose their gender presentation instead and keep changing it as they please. Where all the NPCs have static sexualities, and the choice of gender is something you make, in character. (I did love Seven Winds and how it allowed you to choose your gender presentation and change it.)

[Laguz]

@Sovereign2Lilith

I also find it odd why a character who seems like they would not be interested in the MC tries to pursue MC. They seem fake and sketchy. Like Mitra in Nusantara that wanted a traditional woman who cooks and cleans and gives birth numerous times which is definitely not my MC. Or like in Taarradhin (bad game, I would not recommend) where the slave guy likes MC When the other slave girl is much better than MC, and it makes him seem like a gold digger just after MC’s wealth.

I’m going to stop you right there. First off: Tamara in Nusantara is an already-defined character, not a malleable MC. Even the pseudo-minigame scenes are actually hard-coded.

Secondly, Asih teaches her to cook and sew and Mitra will only show an interest in you over the other options if you a) show interest in children (main introduction) b) Spend more time with him then other single men (you’re kind of made to if everyone else is dead) c) show preference for his safety over that of other men (Reksa route) or d) everyone else is dead and the game doesn’t have a bad ending, and even then Tamara says to think about it and can actually just leave him. Plus they have the entire “women actually do fight” talk, and Yuda definitely makes reference to her stubbornness and persistence as being an actually desirable trait for Mitra not only personally but also good as a chief’s wife, which is made passing reference to in the “drawing” scene.

In Taarradhin, remember that these people are slaves, and thusly did not know that it was possible that they could be married as free people and “get MC’s wealth)”. Again, the MC is also defined in that game: Neqtia has already a personality and background as well as limited choices to show that she is not you nor your perception of her.

@FairyGodfeather

Or playing along the ideas of the story of Ragnelle.

@FairyGodfeather

Ragnelle.

@FairyGodfeather

What I’d thought of was a shape-shifting, genderqueer romantic option, who first appears to you as your preferred gender. They look exactly as you want them to look. Very much like Black Magic in Heroes Rise, or really most of the romantic options.

The main difference being, this is a character choosing, or being forced to conform to your ideals, happening within the story as opposed to a game mechanic.

I love this idea. Could be played very interestingly and opens up a lot of personal development too! Cool!

[Sovereign2Lilith]

@FairyGodfeather

They look exactly as you want them to look.

How would this work for people who aren’t attracted to a person’s physical features? I kind of dislike a game telling me I’m attracted to a person when I don’t even know them. I personally wouldn’t want to force a character to be a certain gender if they asked me to choose for them; I’d probably pass on that question.
I probably wouldn’t change my gender in game (when I can look through the code) just to get a RO unless it’s something like all the first born males/ females are getting killed or a draft or something. How do we know everyone’s sexualities? Is it like that episode on Family Guy were Brian was dating a blind girl and lied to make himself seem better and when she found out about it, he tried it again with a different accent so she wouldn’t know except we use shapeshifting (if we actually do have a preferred gender for ourselves)and our mark may not be blind or vice versa if the RO can shift.

A RO reacting to bring forced to be a preferred gender for straight/gay MC or nonbinary for MC’s that don’t care seems to major to just have that character as a side character and like the plot or at least a branch would have to revolve around this issue.

@Laguz
I somehow managed to simultaneously get Rama and Mitra’s route on my first play through and Rama was still alive so I don’t remember having too many scenes with Mitra besides the random kiss scene when I was trying to date his best friend and the ending because I was trying to go on Rama’s route, but I vaguely remember Mitra being interested in all the routes and Tamara failing at cooking fish (at least on Reksa’s route). It’s cannon that Tamara initially at least doesn’t cook.

In Taaraadhin, the cannon MC knows pretty much nothing about the slaves or their culture. I personally think the slave girl was prettier than the MC because they were both comparable and similarly skinny (so it couldn’t have been that he had a preference for curvier girls) and the slaves definitely had similar backgrounds and more in common. The romance just doesn’t make sense to me.

This is off topic.

[poison_mara]

You are wrong in that
About if a straight play this there is no homosexual representation

It is heterophobic, I am hetero and all of you here know how I play and romance all types of romances whatever genre or non binary. Generalized about Heterosexual people is not good either.
First time in my life I saw written Heterophobic lol, Probably because heterosexual was always the default.

Also If they want play all characters heterosexual in their OWN game where is the problem? Same if you want play with all gays or a non binary with all non binary. IT IS THEIR OWN EXPERIENCE. I personally love change and experience the difference between all options but it is just me I am not my Character. so I experience with different types and genders

[Laguz]

@poison_mara

Heterophobic

there’s no such thing as heterophobia lmao
just a thing made up by sad straights to mean “wah, 64 straight protagonists this year? last year i had 65!”

@poison_mara

Also If they want play all characters heterosexual in their OWN game where is the problem?

the problem is its fucking boring

(and also contributing to queer erasure and alienation in the media)

@poison_mara

I personally love change and experience the difference between all options but it is just me I am not my Character. so I experience with different types and genders

I want people to offer a reason to play as a different gender or sexuality. I loved how so many people wanted to play as nb to romance the prince in Versus. I love how people made male characters to romance Dorian or female to romance Alistair in dragon age.

I love patches that make straight characters bi or gay. I don’t like it when straights make a patch to make a gay character bi or straight, or even a bi character straight. That’s erasure. There’s a difference here in representation and humanisation and that’s the main thing.

[poison_mara]

Well I played Tali as woman patch because It was real Bioware content EA censored tali as Lesbian when all dialogue and scenes where on the disc. Even in Shadow broker dlc Tali intel she said she was in love Mara . I wouldn’t NEVER CHANGE A GAME FOR DOING THE CHANGE AGAINST THE author plans Is insulting

[Gower]

I have to agree with Mara regarding “no homosexual representation” if a straight player can choose the orientation of romanceable NPCs. I feel quite certain that some straight players, when given the opportunity to choose orientation of NPCs, choose a homosexual romance possibility.

One can’t ensure it, thus ensuring representation, and I think that’s the larger point at stake here. But the minor point under discussion, Mara and I, at least, serve as evidence that it isn’t true that there must be no homosexual representation.

[Laguz]

@poison_mara

Well I played Tali as woman patch because It was real Bioware content EA censored tali as Lesbian when all dialogue and scenes where on the disc. Even in Shadow broker dlc Tali intel she said she was in love Mara .

Ashley was also initially meant to be bi, and Kaiden from the first game (not just 3), I wouldn’t put it past Bioware.

@poison_mara

I wouldn’t NEVER CHANGE A GAME FOR DOING THE CHANGE AGAINST THE author plans Is insulting

I would if the author’s plans are bloody disgusting :)))))))

[JimD]

The player side of me wants every ounce of customization possible. I want a dozen ROs, all selectable genders, with unique personalities that change as I play to fit my story.

The writer side wants to finish a game, create words that many people can enjoy, and make compelling romantic options. I realize I only have so much time and creative energy to accomplish this.

There’s a tug-of-war between the two sides.

[FairyGodfeather]

@Sovereign2Lilith

How would this work for people who aren’t attracted to a person’s physical features? I kind of dislike a game telling me I’m attracted to a person when I don’t even know them.

I don’t think I’d ever actually explicitly tell a reader that they’re attracted to someone, unless magical forced attraction is involved. Actually, that’s another theme I’d likely play with. Magical forced attraction to someone whose appearance you determine (or possibly has a default attractive appearance in the gender of your choosing if you don’t want to specify anything more on their appearance). Admittedly if you let people type in their appearance, or what they look like, you’d end up with people inputting silly things, like they do for Black Magic. I suppose that’s on them though.

But usually, I’d say sure you can describe them as being handsome/beautiful/sexy or whatnot, but you let the player choose how they respond to that. If you’re good enough at writing, you don’t need to force emotions you should be able to conjure them with words.

And yeah, questions, questions, it’s mostly just musing on themes, and so many of your interesting questions are getting added to the list. That would be unethical, wouldn’t it, having a dating sim where you can date a character, and if you fail to woo them, just switch your appearance, pretend to be someone else, and try again making use of the information you previously picked up.

Or like Groundhog Day, or 50 first dates. Or hmm there’s this time travel short https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBkBS4O3yvY