Gender-locking ROs, gender flipping, and importance of gender in relationships

Game Development Writing and Content
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You see it more on tumblr when Authors share anon asks they get. It gets really bad to the point they shut off asks because of it. It often comes in the form of whining that the reader can’t romance X character that has set sexuality. Sadly the most hit targets of this seem to be ROs that are aspec (from what I have seen). Woe be any author who makes an attractive aspec RO. The upset that rains down is constant. Offhand I know When Twilight Strikes gets hit A LOT for B and K as ROs. But I’ve seen it hit in some degree all sexualities. Some turning gay and straight characters bi under pressure to please readers. And some authors just simply breaking down from the onslaught.

You also get set NB characters getting this treatment, less about change and more about finding out information in order for readers to designate them a gender rather than leaving them happily NB and accepting them for who they are.

I think you maybe see it less on the forums because people can’t hide their identities behind anon for these topics. The issue on the forums get skirted around, it’s subtle though, enough that it could very easily be me reading into it too much. With gender issues, you see more trans character misgendering and upset on the forums than the other issues. There is much upset when an RO is trans because people decide they don’t count as X gender romance because trans or feel transpersons need warning labels.

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Malin the author of Fallen Hero had a bunch of rude people wanting Steel to be bi instead of gay so yeah this definitely does happens like Radiantbliss said

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I already made a post here, but I want to add another thing:

The answer to this question also depends on the themes the author wants to put in. If the game tells me the society the game takes place in is heavily sexist/homophobic/other bigotry, and then there’s a character that no scenes in which they experience said bigotry exist (because they’re MCsexual or gender-flippable or whatever), I feel that undermines the game.

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Yeah, I will personally never be on board with the whole “this character isn’t believably marginalized unless I witness them being discriminated against” logic. If you’re talking about a game not acknowledging the impact a setting like that would have on the MC and the love interest’s relationship as it is portrayed in the game, I get that. But if we’re on the subject of gender-flipping and romance, I just don’t find that necessary.

Mainly, to me, it just seems like people outside of certain groups refusing or struggling to accept other groups outside of the context of them being othered, facing hardship, and/or being reminded of their own inferiority. Needing to see specific demographics treated less than human in order to accept that they can exist in a story at all. It’s weird and for some reason, with the examples of gender and sexuality at least, it is almost never women and other queer people who feel this is necessary to demonstrate a character’s womanhood or queerness. But of course, anyone can come correct me on that.

Why can’t it be implied? Why can’t it be demonstrated through casual conversation or a rigorous disagreement? In a personal moment of bonding with the RO? Why is real-world oppression only realistic in IF if someone is being actively discriminated against in a scene? Not calling anyone out specifically when I say this next bit, because I have seen this be argued for countless times on this forum, but it just seems bizarrely voyeuristic and sadistic to me.

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Agreed. A study in steampunk did a great job there in my opinion. I can’t remember a moment where the protagonist (genderlocked male) was actively discriminated against, yet it was acknowledged that he couldn’t be openly gay and had to keep his relationship with Finch secret (if one opted to romance him).

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As a rule I tend to stear clear of genderlocked stories, reason being I simply have no interest in playing as male, and female locked stories tend not to have female RO’s, while male locked tend to have male ones, but that’s a different matter entirely. This would generally include stories that portray the MC very ambiguously, also.
Won’t name specific stories but there are quite a few where despite given the choice for the MC to be/look the way you want, I personally cannot tell any difference throughout the story, in dialogue etc. the choice simply doesn’t end up mattering outside of pronouns, and in my mind that isn’t enough.
This will vary from writer to writer ofc, since the way some people write characters will simply line up more with how/what I view as fitting my chosen gender, this ofc goes for RO’s as well.
Ultimately there just isn’t a right way to do this, since, shocker, people appreciate/look for different things in stories and their characters.

From my view, if anyone cares for input, I would say, generally, if you want to write genderlocked MC/RO’s, even if people who think of it the same way as me likely won’t read it… do it, don’t slap an extra pronoun/new name on the character and call it a day, because that seems to be how that usually ends up, in my experience.
Obviously there are exceptions to this, there’s a few writers that, in my opinion, have done an excellent job at showing a difference, making you feel a difference. This difference can be portrayed/shown in many different ways too.
This will likely reduce the reach/appeal of your story, but at least it will feel less… cheap, for lack of a better word.

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Ok, this is not what I’m saying?

What I’m saying is, e.g., there’s a gender-flippable RO who is a noble heir, and then the game tells me that in this world, let’s say, unmarried women are not legally allowed to own property. If this absolutely never comes up in relation to the noble heiress, it doesn’t really sell it (“it” being the discrimination, not the RO, obviously). Note that this isn’t just generalised discrimination, it’s actually how legal framework works.

Why did pick this specific example? Funnily enough, because there’s a game that does the exact opposite of that example: in A Mage Reborn, apparently one of the kingdoms doesn’t allow “unguided women” to inherit. This is never mentioned at all. It only comes up because that’s exactly the motivating animus behind one the characters: Ilya’s a noblewoman, the eldest child and therefore the heir, but she can’t inherit the family’s estate without marrying Otherwise Completely Irrelevant Character dude. This is why she goes out adventuring to try to become the Church-appointed Saintesse, which would result in her being considered “guided” and therefore being able to inherit. Now imagine that the game at some point told you that unmarried women can’t legally inherit, and this absolutely never came up on Ilya’s path, even though she’s the next in line to inherit.

In a perhaps more succinct description: I’m not saying that I only believe gay relationships are discriminated against in the game world only if I see a gay character being discriminated against, I’m saying that if gay marriage is actually ILLEGAL in the game world but nobody bats an eye when a male MC and their male RO have a romantic candlelit dinner in a public restaurant in front of everyone, this doesn’t really sell the “gay marriage is illegal” idea (especially because if an author goes to the trouble of telling you that gay marriage is illegal in the gameworld, they probably want to do something with that concept - hopefully, tear it down and stomp it to pieces).

Uh. Turns out that wasn’t succinct at all? I guess? :grimacing:

Ok, this is sort of what I’m talking about. I never played that game, so maybe I’m going to say some blunder here, but let’s see what I can make of this.

Imagine Finch was gender-flippable, but, because they are gender-flippable, the author never thought to include a male-Finch-specific section indicating that you had to keep that relationship a secret.

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yea, i understood that aspect of your post. the way it was worded was far more general, hence the rest of my reply.

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Ah, my bad on a poor explanation, then.

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Ah, okay, I see where you’re coming from and I agree with you in that case. If it’s been established that the setting doesn’t allow for open same sex relationships, it should be mentioned and reflected in the experiences of the characters.

Generally speaking and not in direct reply to you:
What I take an issue with are writers who go out of their way to make The Queers ™ suffer in excrutiating detail under the pretense of realism, when in fact it is often just serving the good, old slashfiction hurt/comfort trope and make cishet readers go “awwww” for a minute, while readers who are actually part of that minority are left out in the cold and have to face the same shit they’re trying to escape from by reading IF. This isn’t representation, it’s deliberately misusing a group of people to satisfy the needs of another that stands above them in society.
I’ve never read a scene like that and thought “Wow, just like that one time someone bullied me in real life, so realistic, I appreciate that!” and like I already said, I don’t buy this whole realism angle in the first place. I think it’s more often than not an excuse. Especially if this cruelty is only found on the same-sex path but not the other, in case of gender-flippable characters. That’s sus af.

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Yet there was a small timespan in which this was the case. Where I live, this was the late 90’s when I was still in school. You could almost as easily date a boy as a girl in the more progressive areas of the country but you couldn’t yet marry that boy.
In many cases there was a sort of liminal time, especially legally, where gay men had become tolerated and somewhat accepted but the laws had not yet caught up to that fact. In some places, like Chile, which only passed gay marriage recently that time could take decades. Therefore if you want to set a story during such a time period then this could happen.
Though of course in many places civil unions did exist before gay marriage, but by no means in all of them.

For fiction purposes you could set a mostly or completely happy gay story, if your characters are mostly upper middle class and live in a progressive part of the country, in this time period, with the caveat that you cannot marry your boyfriend.

Technically there is one possible case in my country left where the law might still be trouble for a gay guy and that would be being the royal heir. So, that could be a fun story, if someone wishes to write something like that. :grin: Of course my preferred real life solution to it would be to just abolish the monarchy altogether. :man_shrugging:

The tail end of the marriage equality movement that I was actually involved in was rather more gentle. More endless, sometimes frustrating, meetings with politicians and all sorts of special interest/civil society groups (it is in fact how I got my paying political aide job) and less stonewall riots. Oh, and gay pride, that could get rather lively, though mostly also not in a very Stonewall-esque fashion. :wink:

I metaphorically agree, however the movement I was involved with had success a bit earlier in 2002 here in the Netherlands. Though we, sadly, still have the monarchy and the royal family succession remains the one oversight in the marriage equality law.

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and with this i finally, FINALLY understand the portion of ‘why’ that has alluded me for so long. oh god, this is definitely the root of it for ““well-meaning”” readers who claim to support LGBT characters. thank god i’m not straight or cis. i grew up in the fandom cultures that love and perpetuate this crap and if it weren’t for it directly making me feel uncomfortable and objectified, who knows what kind of creep i would have grown up into…

also yea to loop back to the example by @JBento that @idonotlikeusernames highlights: you can get that same immersion from a same-sex couple having a romantic moment in public and being pleasantly surprised that no one bats an eye. this is also a giant part of the queer romantic experience and, would you look at that, no discrimination or side-eye or micro-aggressions necessary.

*like… there is nothing in romance that gets my heart thumping harder than queer folks getting to have a bit of respite from how horrible others can be to us when they’re just having a simple moment. venturing for a kiss because the park is mostly empty and no one is paying attention. squeezing your SO’s hand at dinner, then going the one step further of kissing it because no one is having A Reaction. A kiss on the sidewalk that strangers don’t have the time, energy, or interest to notice (because honestly, the assumption that everyone in an oppressive society cares that much about homophobia or whatever is tiring; that’s not how reality works much of the time unless you are literally in a totalitarian/authoritarian snitch-on-your-neighbors-or-face-the-wrath-of-the-state type of setting.) and then going home (or to the next scene lol) with nothing but a pleasant memory that makes their hearts stir LIKE

ok i need to go read some gay romance rn bye :man_running:t5:

ahhhhhh don’t perceive me!! :rofl::rofl: i did almost say “need to go write some gay romance” but didn’t want to be held to it!! :rofl:

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When Buckingham Palace burns to the ground, I’ll be roasting marshmallows on the smouldering ashes.

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True, although for the more extravagantly dressed kids in tourist-y areas the one surprise in my time was how many would take pictures of two (cute) guys kissing in public. :sweat_smile: Fortunately those mostly stayed private as it was before Facebook.

I’d rather you write it! Hurry up and let me have my villain romance with Gabe! :rainbow: :kissing_closed_eyes:

Although the ways of old Samurai were far from true gay equality, it was more that you could have and often were expected to have a sexual relationship with your “apprentice”. It’s some of where the Japanese manga fascination with the whole seme/uke thing comes from. :unamused:

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Yeah, “realism” generally tends to be a pretty poor excuse for portraying bigotry, for several reasons. As has already been discussed, including bigotry that only minority players will actually even be aware of, let alone be affected by, feels almost targeted at minority players, even if unintentionally.

As a second point, even the most historically accurate stories on this site are going to be taking some liberties with the actual history, and the majority are not trying to be historically realistic. So why add real world bigotries to a world that’s not the real world, unless you’re writing the story specifically about bigotry (and if you are specifically writing about bigotry, I’d suggest either not writing it as IF, or using allegory instead of actual real world minorities)? If you’re writing a medieval fantasy, in which the main religion isn’t Christianity, do you really need bigotries that only exist because of Christianity?

But more than that, often “realism” isn’t actually realistic. For example, medieval Christianity wasn’t even that homophobic. Sure, the Bible spoke out against homosexuality, but for most people that was an issue between the individual and the Church, and unless you were unlucky, you’d generally be allowed to live your life in peace. Heck, the medieval Church even had special “brotherhood” ceremonies which would allow pairs of men to essentially be married. (It was almost certainly not intended for gay men, but it was definitely used by them… :sweat_smile:) It’s also worth mentioning that a lot of other historical societies worldwide were far more accepting of LGBTQ+ people, including Ancient China and Japan, and many African and pre-Columbian American civilisations. The only reason that people see historical cultures as homophobic and transphobic is due to the fact that the most homophobic period in Europe’s history is also the period when Europe decided that it wanted to own everywhere else. :roll_eyes:

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True, it’s just where I draw the line for myself. It’s irritating, but it doesn’t offend and / or hurt me the same way personal attacks on characters do, and I don’t feel comfortable speaking for others.

I think another reason (which is a bit embarrassing to admit) why I don’t see the portrayal of a bigoted society as critical as personal attacks is that I have a feeling most writers are simply as uneducated as I am when it comes to history of bigotry. Being trans and gay hasn’t turned me into a history buff or let me wake up one morning with the knowledge of everything that happened before (“Previously on being queer”). So, when even I, who falls under the LGBTQ+ umbrella, don’t really know that much and haven’t put in the effort so far to learn more - How could I expect cishet writers to? Is it lazy? Yes. Is it the uncreative, easy route? Absolutely.
It’s just not something I myself take as much offense by as the other example I gave, but I can absolutely see why others would.

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I think it’s a huge oversimplification to say homophobia only exists because of Christianity.

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And yet nobody blinked an eye at gay folk in pagan times.

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Pagan times where? I can’t say for certain about pagan religions and cultures I know nothing about, but there was certainly homophobia in Ancient Greece and Rome. Homosexual relationships between men were accepted if one of the men (the “passive” party - homophobia is in large part rooted in misogyny) was a slave, a prostitute, or a teenager. A sexual and/or romantic relationship between adult men of equal social status would not have been societally accepted. And women were probably not free to pursue relationships with other women, judging by the very lacking records we have of female homosexuality from Ancient Greece and Rome. Nor where they able to maintain a societally respectable role if they pursued relationships with men, to be fair.

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The only records we have are of men of relatively high social status, and in those cases it was important that their main… liaison was with a woman, because inheritance.

I mean, nobody’s claiming a lack of misogyny.

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