Disliked Elements, Mechanics, and Tropes

Well, its good to know that I’m not the only one whos tired of Demons/Devils as antagonists.

Also you raise quite a few points with which I can agree. However, there are also some points I have to disagree with.

While that might be true it doesn’t really help when such a stat check comes basically somewhere in the last third of the story, so you have to either restart the whole game if you don’t want to fail or want any of your valued companions to suffer or die or finish the game with a bad feeling in your gut.
Also, as far as I can remember there were also a large number of checks in the second and third book of Lost Heir that only focused on stats that I haven’t raised at all, so I failed regardless of what I did and my only option was to start over completely. Of course it didn’t help that those particular checks had to be story important ones and heavily influenced my character and companions. Hell, in one particular case such a check even killed one of my companions off just because I didn’t had the right stats for that particular check. That’s what I meant with bad design. If you have the need to include over a dozen different stats and abilities then at least give readers the chance to succed regardless of which stats they focused.

For example in my case, I went with the Ranger path in my first playthrough and focused mainly on agility, perception and archery. And while these stats helped me through the first book just fine in the second book those stats didn’t helped me at all and I had to start over several times so that I could gather enough points in the other needed stats so that I wouldn’t fail next to every fourth stat check. Honestly, the third book was even worse with even more unfair checks with next to ridiculous requirements, especially during the final fight which brings us to the next part.

While that is also true it doesn’t really help if you can’t even succeed enough checks to begin with. As far as I can remember I was only able to succeed in one single stat check during the final fight that wasn’t even nearly enough to give me one of the good endings. No, I got the worst and most awful ending possible with my poor MC ending as a demon and having to not only later fight against her loved ones but also serve the whiny ass who killed her parents and brought forth the apocalypse.
After that unsatisfying ending I replayed the third book so many times and tried every other possible combination of choices to get a different outcome but sadly no matter what I tried I always got the same ending.
Once I figured out that it was basically next to impossible for me to get even one of the moderate endings with my build and particular stats and that if I wanted to get the good endings I would have had to focus on specific builds or stats (thanks to an old thread here in the forum and some code divers) I lost all motivation to read the stories again. As I already said, if you have the need to include over a dozen different stats/abilities and a ton of jobs/classes/professions then you should at least write it in a way that everyone can succeed regardless of their build. Else its just bad design and takes away the freedom of such stories.

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Haaaaaave you tried The Fog Knows Your Name? Amazing game (I think the author is making another one, can’t wait), but it took me like FIVE playthroughs for an ACCEPTABLE ending, let alone a perfect one, when every other game has taken me two playthroughs, tops, to get all the variables where I want them.

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Granted, I’ve only played the demo, but I’d say TFKYN is easier because it’s just a better game so you aren’t tempted to close the browser.

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It sounds like you got the puppet ending, which is the worst ending and I fortunately never got. I know from reading the thread about that series that the way this HG was originally made, meant that it originally and unfortunately was quite easy to get that ending. And, that, I’d agree was a case of bad design. But the things that caused this were eventually fixed, not long afterwards, I think, and certainly long before I bought the HGs in that series, in 2021. If you tried that HG before this was fixed I fully understand your frustrations and am sad that you had to experience this. But after this was fixed, this became much easier to avoid. As far as I know the only way to get that ending is if you don’t escape as soon as possible in your one to one-encounters with the main villain before what is supposed to be the final battle and maybe also if you haven’t figured out the villain’s real/ original motivation and ask him a question based on what you’ve learned. The last thing is something I’ve never had any problem in doing, since that only involves succeeding in one stat check. But maybe you didn’t manage to that and this lead to your problems.

I won’t deny that some builds are more effective than others, but I don’t think this is necessarily a case of bad design. Firstly, there’s so many ways to build your MC in that series that even if some builds are less useful than others or even useless than others, there’s still many different builds you can use in order to win and I think that if you compare the number of builds that you can use to get a good ending in this series with the number of builds you can use in order to get a good ending in your average COG or HG, you will find that there’s at least as many builds you can use in order to that in this series, although that’s probably also partly to do with there being so many builds to choose from in this series in the first place.

Also, though it’s obviously not completely fair, making some stats more important than others, also helps signposting which stats to prioritise for the final confrontation. Considering the large number of stats for your character and the fact that there’s only so many of them you can choose from when you decide which of them you want to test, means, I think, that making them all equally important, will make it harder to figure out what the best choices are when it comes to what stats to build, which could quickly become a problem at the climax, when all the stat checks become extra important. It also makes it more difficult to remember for your next playthrough which stats that would be good to prioritise. Signalling that certain stats and builds are particulary good or bad, makes it easier for the average reader/player to figuring out a path into getting a good ending and can also function as a sort of easy mode or at least easier mode in a series that I don’t deny that often can be challenging.

Of course, if you have a preferred build that doesn’t work well and this build is the only build that you’re willing, this becomes difficult and I guess you’re then basically on hard mode or maybe even ultrahard mode. Which I get can be extremely frustrating. But I think for that for most people reading/playing a COG/HG or COG/HG series making all the stats of equal importance would make things more difficult or confusing, not least.

The thing to keep in mind is that is a very rpg-y HG series, at least in the tabletop rpg sense( I don’t feel that I have a good enough overview of computer rpgs to say anything about how similar it is to that kind of rpgs). And I’d say it’s particularly similar to rpgs like AD & D/D & D and (first edition)Pathfinder, all rpgs where your in-combat abilities; in this instance magic, melee, ranged combat and unarmed combat; are of prime importance, in the sense that you need to have at a high level compared to the challenges you face and ideally a secondary which you can use to supplement your best in-combat ability. And like in most versions of D & D/AD & D(and first edition Pathfinder), magic is the most useful abilty/stat. And like in many of the editions of those rpgs, some builds are better than others and some skills/abilities are better than others and part of the attraction for the people into this kind of playstyle is to create builds that are interesting and succesful/effective. And I think the combination of this and the series feeling challenging and the sense of accomplishment you get where you overcome those challenges through “building” your character and making good choices and end up getting the best ending or the other good ending, is at least an important part of what has made this series really enjoyable and attractive to many of the people who have really enjoyed that series.

So, although I can see that it feels unfair to you, and in some sense also is unfair, that certain builds are less useful, I still feel that to consider it bad design is taking it too far. I think there are reasons why it’s the way it is, and although this design has some unfortunate consequences, I think it has also has some good consequences and anyway is a part of the particular rpgy approach that this COG/HG uses. But it’s not for everyone, just like horror, shoot 'em ups, and even romance aren’t for everyone, so just like those who don’t like visual novels probably wouldn’t enjoy HGs that uses the same kind of approach, those who don’t like the approach of rpgs like D & D/AD & D probably wouldn’t enjoy The Lost Heir series either.

Anyway, I think a lot of what we like or don’t like in COGs and HGs has to do with our path into choicescript games. For me it was gamebooks, I literally discovered choicescript games through a web page about(mainly) gamebooks and played a lot of gamebooks when I was a young boy and, also has done so on and off, after becoming adult. The gamebook series I’ve played most often is the Fighting Fantasy series. In that series, you usually only had one good ending and plenty of bad ones and getting to the good ending usually took a lot of work, you both had to make the right decisions, find the right items, often had to solve one or more puzzles, and had to have enough luck with your dicerolls, both for combat rolls and stat checks in order to get that good ending and you very rarely got it right on the first attempt. You rolled up all your stats and there often wasn’t more build than hoping you would get high enough stats in the first place, which meant that it would become easier or more difficult depending on what stats you rolled. So compared to that, most HGs and COGs seem quite forgiving to me. This means that I’m probably less put off than the majority of other people who read play/read COGs/HGs when it comes to them being difficult and less forgiving of failure(although I do dislike when a COG/HG stops/freezes until you discovered the solution to a puzzle, puzzles were never really my favorite part of gamebooks and I’ve never really liked parser-based interactive fiction, partly for that reason). So you could probably say that my opinions, preferences and sensibilities, so to speak, are skewed towards being less bothered about those things in a COG/HG than the average COG/HG reader/player, but I think that kind of “skewing” happens to all of us one way or another, both by being less or more easily bothered by some things and by being more inclined to like particular approaches.

I actually haven’t tried that yet but seeing your review I just might have to.

I get what you mean. The Lost Heir trilogy is one of my FAVORITE hosted games because I adore high fantasy works and stat heavy games but it DID get very brutal in the third game. Like in one part magic doesn’t work and if you don’t have 100 strength you lose humanity and demon morph to save yourself and friends. That is severely limiting because what Bard, Wizard, Ranger, Thief etc has 100 strength??? I wish they expanded options a little better in that game and provided more in depth characters and character development overall but I still love it.

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Yeah this is why I dropped Witchcraft U when I got halfway through the game attached to nobody, not knowing what my goal was and not knowing what the hell was going on

Quite the mess of just too much I feel

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Well it is what it is mate.

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I got lucky with The Fog Knows Your Name. Somehow (no, really, I don’t know how and doubt I could replicate the results), being a stubborn ass and choosing to investigate basically nothing allowed me to get the ending where the Fog takes me as its eternal buddy and lets me visit my friends and loved ones every now and again in exchange for not completely murdering the entire town. Is it the best ending? I dunno, but I feel like it was a pretty good one for the… decided lack of effort I put into it. XD

(It may have been that I simply had high enough stats to make the checks that mattered, so my lack of story progress was overridden by me simply being too good to die. But don’t quote me on that!)

Depends on your take I guess. There are endings where you get rid of the Fog Beast entirely.

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Well, I can at least say we came to an, uh, agreement, and now the Fog Beast isn’t out for blood anymore, so… that counts, I guess?

It’s a kind of W, so I’ll take it.

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thanks for reminding me to replay TFKYN. i remember i never finished it cause i was so overwhelmed on things i wanted to do and how i wanted the best for everyone. also trying to romance a dead person is hard lmao

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Sick of every time traveling story needing a twist like “oh you can’t ACTUALLY change the past” or “changing it makes it so it happened how you remembered” or “you need to unchange the past or there’s a paradox”. It’s so overdone. No, you don’t actually need every plan to kill Hitler to fail, there’s no rule against it working.

“Oh, but it makes no sense to have it work this way!” Time travel is made up. It’s not real. It’s just like magic. It works however you want. Make time work in some weird way to have it make sense or something. We’re all fine with stuff like ftl travel and fictional spaceships not being restrained by how much fuel they’d need and the size of the fuel tanks and shit, and authors come up with new technologies to explain that stuff all the time! Why is time off limits? This is science fiction, having new and fanciful technologies that do stuff we’d think is impossible now is part of the appeal. Sure, some people prefer harder scifi, even I have a taste for it, but time travel is kind of inherently not that. Just change the past. Sop chickening out.

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Honestly, this was one of the reasons I did not like Life Is Strange. Well I liked it, but the ending choice left a bad taste for me.

Either choose to save a whole town and its citizens by going back in time and the MC never using their randomly activated time wizard powers which she never asked for and basically do the “you need to unchange the past” trope or save the MC’s childhood friend who has had a rough life and who the MC seems to really care for (friendship or RO-wise), but have to let the magic tornado kill everyone else in the town. For me it wasn’t a hard choice since its a whole town or one person, but I picked save Chloe kind of out of spite to the game lol, but also atleast in that ending your choices and everything you went through matter (helping people like Kate and resolving other issues). But oh wait, they still really don’t matter because the people you help all die anyway. I hated both choices and it felt like the choice they wanted people to go for was to save the town, since it feels like they wanted to tell a “lesson” where its better to not change the past…except it never would have happened if the MC didn’t have time powers forced upon her anyway. I would have rather the game not included a power element to it and instead focus on the murder mystery element ala Veronica Mars, but thats getting into a rant I have had with friends already lol

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Yeah, I heard about that. That’s one of the worst examples tbh.

  1. That’s not how the butterfly effect works. A tornado isn’t gonna just happen immediately. It takes a VERY long time, and you’ll never know which storm was caused by what. The idea that a tornado is going to happen right then and there in the timespan of the game in the same location as the event that caused it is incredibly stupid.

  2. Who wants to play or watch or read anything with that message? Never do anything. Never help anyone. It always backfires. That’s what all “don’t change the past” bs amounts to really. Because like, if someone saved Chloe WITHOUT time travel, the tornado would’ve happened anyway, so the message is just never help people. Because then everybody dies. The distinction between time travel helping people having bad consequences and just regular helping people having bad consequences is completely arbitrary. The effect’s the same.

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I liked how All You Need Is Kill (and its later movie counterpart, Edge of Tomorrow) handled it: The past informs the present, thereby allowing one to prepare for the future.

The main protagonist gets trapped in a stable time loop where he wakes up the day before a major battle, goes about his business, then goes into said major battle the next day, gets his shit kicked in, and it’s back to square one again. After enough repetitions of this pattern, the main protagonist eventually builds up enough skill, strength and intelligence to start rewriting the script: now he dies three minutes into the fight, instead of immediately. Now he can kill five aliens before getting ripped in half, instead of maybe one if he’s lucky. Now he’s starting to reexamine his combat loadout to see what the best weapons to bring would be.

Eventually, it culminates in the guy becoming so wildly different than how he used to be that he attracts the attention of the other main protagonist, who is a living legend and badass glorified by humanity, and it turns out she also got trapped in a stable time loop at one point, which is how she got so good at her job in the first place.

Meanwhile, as far as anybody on the outside looking in could possibly know, these two weird-ass soldiers are unbelievably good at killing these aliens that nobody else has been able to land a square hit on, and one of them is hardly a week out of boot camp!

That’s the kind of time travel story I wish there were more of, ones that focus on how things change in the present. Even the author of AYNIK said it: it’s basically video game logic. You die in a shooter, respawn at last checkpoint, try again. It’s been around forever as a game mechanic, but hardly anybody seems to focus on it as a story mechanic.

(EDIT: Groundhog Day, too, while I’m thinking about it.)

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I think the main problem with these kinds of stories is that they’re based around the moral of “accepting the things you can’t change”, which is a somewhat reasonable moral in a real world setting (kinda)… Except that in these stories time travel literally exists, so the moral ends up more like “don’t try to change anything, because even if you have the tools to change it, you shouldn’t” which is a terrible moral. :sweat_smile: And it became such a staple of the genre that even stories that aren’t trying to be morality tales just assume that that’s the way time travel stories should be.

It’s a similar reason to why most non-isekai other world stories end with the protagonist returning to the “real” world: not because it necessarily makes sense for the story and characters but because it’s a morality tale based around telling children to grow up and stop living in childish fantasies. (Which is also kinda dumb given that two of the most famous early other world series, Narnia and Oz, both ended with their protagonists living in the other world full time…)

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I found those SO upsetting when I was younger and am still not fond of them as an adult - the worst is when the protagonists forget their magical adventures and the friends they made after leaving! Tears every time.

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My biggest beef with Life Is Strange isn’t that, or even that we never have “how I got the powers” explained to us; is that I was somehow supposed to like Chloe, whom I found to be fundamentally unlikable and a profound asshole. “Oh no, I’m a drug dealer who tried to rob my client at gunpoint and it backfired on me, woe is me.” Fuck you, Chloe.

That’s because these stories are always written by terrible people benefitting from a terrible status quo and they have the poorly-concealed goal of “accept the status quo; it sucks for you, but what you gonna do? it’s great for me, but that neither here nor there, amirite?”

The thing about accepting the things you can’t change is that the “things you can’t change” are things like “gravity” and “water is wet” and “fire is hot”, not “bad people are getting away with doing bad things with no consequence.”

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I mean I know I’m biased in Chloe’s case based on my pfp but thats just straight up not what happened. She was trying to blackmail Nathan by saying she’d out him for his drug dealing unless he gave her a cut of his earnings and he pulled his gun on her. Whether thats any better is up to you, but lets not accuse her of things she didnt do.

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You’re totally right about the gun, which is me misremembering. I definitely got out of that scene with the impression that Chloe was the drug-dealer, though, but a quick wiki check tells me I misread it (the scene, not the wiki).

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