What if it’s for sake of comedy instead?
If your comedy lands, literally anything is excusable. That’s the entire foundational principle of satire. Just look at what Gower puts us through during Tally Ho! and Jolly Good, and we’re all salivating at the mouth for more.
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But, look! She is teary-eyed and seems sad! You have to sympathize with her or you will have her sad, lying mug shoved in your face repeatedly!
She’s a pathological liar. They don’t have to serve a purpose past deceiving others. My guess is that she was always this way, and the Agency’s modus operandi just made her worse. All the Agency cares about is secrets and lies, and Rebecca fit right in.
I made two MCs who had a great relationship with her as of b1, just to see how it would go. The one of those that has a brain has seen her relationship rapidly decrease over the course of the three games, because she can’t deal with the constant lying. The other one is dumb as a rock and still has a good relationship with her. Why? Because she is lazy and scared, and she figures Rebecca will protect her (hahahahaha!) and do whatever she wants out of guilt.
My husband’s MCs started out with a middling to good relationship with her. They all hate her now, and he rants as much as I do about what a shitty person and pathological liar she is.
It is. That is the only explanation for all her lies.
The DRAMAH is also the reason the actual plot is lost in b3 (and toward the end of b2–that sewer scene, arghhhh!), because the plot doesn’t even matter anymore. All that matters is cheap, stupid, forced drama that results in all the characters behaving like morons so “moments” get set up where they can display their idiocy.
You and me both.
Miscommunication can work if done infrequently at the beginning, and is written well. Otherwise, it’s just more of the forced BS to create drama.
I will add an addendum to this. It’s excusable if the comedy lands, but it has to fit the environment and not further ruin characters you’re already trashing in the name of cheap drama.
The scene with the kid’s ice cream cone in b3 is probably the only funny scene in that blood drive slapstick BS, and it still does not excuse the blood drive idiocy. The whole, “ack, I have to become Lucille Ball in I Love Lucy to get out of a blood drive” shtick was the peak of stupid in a book full of stupid.
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I agree with most of what you said, but I don’t think I would describe putting the female MC into a submissive role as “heteronormative” since there’s nothing that says the woman a straight relationship necessarily have to be the passive partner, much less the submissive one. I’d say that’s more to do with traditional(in the case of the woman being submissive, very traditional) or at least traditionalish gender roles and gender dynamics. Though I guess it’s also a bit to do with how you define submissive and dominant in this context, if you define it in a regular BDSM sense or in what I’d call the more vanilla dominance/submission dynamic, where it’s mainly to do with who is the initiator and agressor and taking charge in the lovemaking and “courtship” rather than any real BDSM stuff. In the first case, I’d say that’s not even particularly traditional or traditonalish and in the second case, there’s a lot of overlap with gender reversed dynamics, to the point where the two often are, whether in principle or just in practice, basically the same.
But yes, I do think that fiction should include more stories where those gender roles and dynamics are reversed or in the case of IF, can be reversed, not least since I personally prefer, at least to a certain extent, them being reversed and love the bold woman/shy guy dynamic. And I do think it’s disappointing to hear that many romance-focused IFs are leaning more heavily into more traditional dynamics to the point of taking away options for exploring different dynamics. My impression is that romance books tend to push for more traditional dynamics when it comes to romance, or at least with few stories that wholly or partly reverses that dynamics and this is also one of the reasons why I’m hugely sceptical of that genre
And I do think the potential audience for stories that reverses that kind of f/m or m/f dynamics is quite a bit bigger than the people publishing books or romance-focused IF seem to think. If you look at AO3 for instance, there are plenty of stories(including non-fan fiction ones) there that reverse that kind of dynamics and that have plenty of fans and there are plenty of examples of people sharing their love for that kind of dynamics on othere websites as well, such as on plenty of subreddits and on Deviantart. Sure, it is, at least as of now, more of a niche compared to fiction with more traditional or traditionalish romance dynamics, but a big enough a niche that moving into that niche could be reasonably profitable for the company who did that, instead of just playing it safe and leaning into what they already know that a lot of people want. For IFs it should be even easier, with just adding some extra options for those who want something different from the traditional dynamics in addition to more traditional or traditionalish romances. More options should lead to a bigger audience, not a smaller one, from what I can understand
I will say, though, that I do think that HG and COGs for the most part, don’t seem to push that traditional or traditionalish dynamics when it comes to the romances, the way Choices seems to do these days, from what you have written here. Then again, as a guy who prefers the female ROs to be the more aggressive and active party in the romance, I do suspect that building on a more standard-ish romance/visual novel structure, like both TWC, SSW and The Shadow Society all seem to do, but making the MC gender-selectable and in the case of both TWC and The Shadow Society also making the ROs gender-selectable has the, for me,fortunate side effect of creating a dynamic that’s at least partly a reversal of a traditional or traditionalish one(though in SSW there are a bit too many other aspects for my liking that seems to indicate that it used romance for straight women as a basis). And even though the HGs that seem to lean more into that dynamic are still in the minority(and, from what I know, there aren’t really any COGs like that), there are enough of them now for this to be noticeable.
But when it comes to HGs and COGs that leans more into the opposite dynamics. from the HGs and COGs that I’ve tried I’ve gotten the impression, that there aren’t a similar number of COGs or HGs that lean into that kind of dynamic, like by allowing a female MC to rescue the male equivalent of a damsel or using the MC being bold and active in romance as the default. Some HGs have certain romantic paths that allow for that, such as in the Evertree Saga, where there’s one gender-selectable RO who is kind of damsel-like and The Lost Heir, where there’s one shy RO with whom the MC has to initiate the romance. But it does seem to me that there are more options for straight/pan/bi guys who prefer more bold, aggressive and active female ROs and who prefer for their MCs to be shy than there are for straight/pan/bi women who like for their MCs to be bold and the active partner in the romance and for male ROs to be shy.
I do think it’s important that whatever your preferences when it comes to the romance dynamics, you get your choice when it comes to what kind of dynamics your MC can explore with the RO in question. If there are romances where your MC plays the shy, passive and/or submissive role, there should also be romances where your MC can play the bold,active and/or dominant role. Whether this means that each path gives the MC equal opportunities for each dynamic or whether this means that the romance paths are divided into paths that leans into either of the dynamics or something inbetween, should be up to the writer in question I think, but I do think that it’s important that both kind of options are made available. And since there are also plenty of people who prefer to be able to switch or just a more egalitarian dynamic, there should by options for dynamics that are mixed and/or egalitarian as well. And this of course applies whatever your gender and whatever your sexual orientation.
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TWC was one of the first CoG/HGs I ever played, so it has a special place in my heart, but now that it’s been a few years, I’m starting to see the cracks. Like UB being kinda eh and Rebecca being a terrible person - most of my early MCs had a really good relationship with her and stayed that way throughout.
A mechanic that bothers me are things that feel like missed opportunities. In TWC’s case, I think the friendship route applies (and the reason it’s on my mind is because I did a friendship playthrough very recently). TWC was advertised as a romance game - IMO it should’ve just been a romance game. I appreciate what it was trying to do by allowing players to avoid it if they weren’t interested, but it was explicitly stated that that wasn’t the point of the series.
My main question is, is if you weren’t going to expand upon it, then why make it an option? To entice more readers who will inevitably be disappointed because the content that’s there is lacking compared to the romances? It’s a real shame too, because I like the friendship route and how that dynamic evolves with UB. Or how it should evolve if there were more opportunities to develop it.
Edit: To clarify, the missed opportunities bother me.
Edit 2: Also, if something is underdeveloped, the creator is less likely to pay attention to it, so mistakes can slip through the cracks. Case in point, for some reason A cared a whole lot about my MC during the book 3 auction, but like. I’m not romancing you? Why are you worrying about me to the point where MC has to say “We’re not doing this right now”?
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I think she should’ve made the friendship route a platonic soulmate kind of thing, since the romances are supposed to be soulmates. It would’ve made sense, I think, and could’ve really followed the coding for the romances themselves minus any physical or dramatically romantic.
I’ve delved into her code pretty deeply, and think it would’ve been less work to do the friendship route this way. Make the MC choose a bff in b1 when they choose their LI, and take the friendship route where it’s running parallel to the romantic route.
If she had done it this way–and added some more choices along the way in how to deal with your bff (maybe even allowing sex for the aro crowd, at least with M, where it’s a platonic soulmate f-buddy route?)–it could’ve also allowed for a less melodramatic route for the romances, for those who want to get to it instead of being cockblocked constantly by the narrative or who don’t want to play the MC like a tween girl with her first crush.
All of this would’ve negated the need for writing completely separate sections for the friend route, since if/then could’ve been implemented in the NPC’s section. And it would’ve added some much-needed depth to the friend route, allowing the MC to learn all the info they would receive from a romanced-LI.
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I feel that. I went to replay b1 recently to redo some choices I hadn’t liked in preparation for starting b3, and while I still enjoyed it, the cracks in plotting and writing really started to show the second time around.
Imo, the way TWC emulates tv series is both its greatest strength and it’s biggest flaw. Because while it’s really cool to play through a game that nails that urban fantasy early 2000s tv series feel, it’s also prone to a lot of the same failings as those tv series, including the way the quality of writing noticeably begins to drop when dragged on for too long.
Which is really a shame, because the idea of playing through a tv series type story yourself is really really cool, and I haven’t seen that many IFs attempt it - or at least, I haven’t seen them absolutely nail the feel of it in quite the same way TWC does.
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@natwa i think this was very well put. i do tend to have a habit of treating heteronormative & traditional as synonyms, because in my eyes they kinda are a lil bit? but yeah i do think traditional is the more appropriate word to use.
also i can for sure say that women being assertive/men being passive is getting more popular in fiction bc i have a blog in which i JUST write femdom stuff & it’s decently popular (when i decide to post on it anyway lol). obviously women being passive like in “my big bad werewolf ceo boyfriend jungkook from BTS kidnapped me?!?” types of stories where the female protagonist is essentially just a doll for the male RO to do as he pleases with still do ridiculously well on writing platforms like ao3 & tumblr & uuugghh… watt pad. i can only hope that more IF authors take note on the different types of dynamics people like seeing.
it is very heartening though that as time goes on it’s become more mainstream/acceptable for men, women, & enbies to choose how they want to approach relationships. i’d say most IF books i’ve read handle this pretty well with maybe only one or two eye-rolling moments from me, but there’s a few that… ugh. don’t.
honestly, nowadays if i see an IF that doesn’t have a bold way to flirt/be assertive with ROs i just dip. but most of them do so hooray!! 
it’s not quite a femdom paradise yet but she’s getting there!
oh also just a disclaimer im not at all shaming any women who prefer to be passive or submissive i love y’all i’m just making a critique on how some IF tends to handle non-traditional gender roles.
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I like using a TV series -style structure as a baseline for plotting, but I assume that’s not what you’re talking about. What gives the feel of playing through a TV series?
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Just my two cents, but for me, it’s how the scenes flow - how there are definite moments where one ends and another begins. Time skips are a big one where this happens, and also when changing the point of view character for a short time.
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It’s hard to fully put my finger on it, admittedly, but…
Beyond just the way the entire series is structured, it’s also the way each individual scene is written, the way the characters and dialogue are written and how each scene unfolds.
There’s the cold opening at the beginning, where you get a glimpse of the season’s big bad and then are thrust right in the midst of the plot, like the first episode of a new series trying to set everything up.
There’s the classic ‘forced to get along’ with UB, where they start off as antagonistic and are supposed to slowly get closer/learn to work together all throughout; and in a tv series it’s not always antagonistic that way, but there’s generally always something new the protagonst has to get used to throughout the first season, like superpowers or a new acquaintance or being in a new environment or whatnot.
And then obviously, the climax, which really feels like a classic end-of-season big bad confrontation in the way it’s built up and written, and in the way it goes down.
It’s also just the little things, like how the people in the precinct are written, how MC can interact with them, how MC themselves is written and the choices they can be given throughout the narration.
Idk, there’s just a lot of small details and big plot beats that feel like they’d “fit” in a 2000s supernatural tv series, y’know?
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i fully agree! first of all like, i think they should’ve thought through the “having a child” part more seriously. children are a LOT of work for a REALLY long time, is it truly the best idea for two workaholics in a dangerous, secret organisation with no intention of putting their careers aside to have a child that is completely dependent on them for up to 20 years? (if they’re lucky. in this economy 
)
if i was rebecca or rook i’d be having a very long discussion about this. is it morally ethical to have a child knowing that 1) your job is high risk and 2) both of you are extremely busy? neither of them seemed willing to sacrifice their work for the MC, and rook’s death i feel like should’ve been a wake up call for rebecca but instead it just made her double, triple, quadruple down and she worked EVEN MORE leaving a vulnerable grieving child by themselves. the responsible thing to do would’ve been to adopt them out, either to relatives or the foster system idk.
it’s only NOW, when the MC is a fully developed adult with a career that rebecca is like “maybe i should sacrifice my work so i can care for my kid” when the kid NO LONGER NEEDS IT BC THEY’RE NOT A KID ANYMORE. when in b3 rebecca is like “i gave up the council position so i could spend more time with you” that irritated me so much because why now? why not twenty years ago when i NEEDED YOU? what caused your sudden epiphany that maybe you should take care of the kid you birthed? because if the idea of your crying, vulnerable, lonely, father-less child wasn’t enough to convince you then what exactly was???
im not moved at all by rebecca’s struggle. i don’t give a shit that her husband died and that she had a hard life. she rejects, neglects, and lies to her kid and continuously chooses to do things that negatively impact them, but “she sacrificed her job” to spend more time with her 30-year-old full grown functioning adult offspring who no longer needs her because they effectively raised themself (while dealing with the grief of dead/absent parents, mind you!).
she can kick rocks.
a caretaker like a maid or nanny (or even a grandparent) is totally different dynamic from a maternal or paternal figure. if MC was adopted out, they’d have at least have the chance of a stable family life rather than whoever rebecca paid to take care of them.
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I’m assuming they had a caretaker for the kid. So I’m not sure what giving the MC away would actually have changed, except add “my parents didn’t want me”.
I know that having it “feel” like a TV show is what she meant to do, because I remember seeing it on her tumblr. That’s also why she keeps each game around 19-22 chapters (i.e., “episodes”).
I think that’s why she spoils the whole plot and gives us the “bad” guy toward the beginning of each game, because it’s a very TV show thing to do. The only problem is that it ruins the game aspect, as well as immersion, when you’re given all the answers up front. But maybe her entire purpose was putting something out that someone would offer her a tv show deal for, so who knows.
Rook was the one who wanted kids, and was the one to take care of MC until he died. They just didn’t make plans for if he died or became unable to take care of MC, since Rebecca never really wanted to be a mom.
I have no sympathy for her, either. The fact that she’s continuing to lie to the MC about everything, then plays the “I haven’t gotten around to it” card just makes her even more annoying.
There were nannies from the Agency. The grandparents apparently live too far away to worry about MC, and there are no other family members. Rebecca really should’ve put MC up for adoption. Someone in Wayhaven would’ve probably taken the kid and not been neglectful.
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I see “EvilChani is typing” so maybe she’ll beat me to this, but Sera has said that Rook is the one that wanted the kid, and Rebecca went along with it to make him happy.
Rook was apparently pretty involved for the VERY FEW years before he died.
Rebecca leaves the Council long before the games start, and becomes Unit Bravo’s handler. It might even be right after Rook died? I’d have to replay to make sure. @EvilChani Care to code dive to confirm that either way? In any case, “I left the Council to spend more time with you” is bullshit, because she very clearly did not.
Rook was pretty involved, and then you had a series of Agency-provided babysitters. Considering the average competency of Agency staff, there’s no bigger testament to the Detective’s badassery that they survived their infant years.
Poname step-siblings ftw.
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Ask and ye shall receive:
Summary
*label chap12_rebchatzz
But her evaluation isn’t what I’m interested in presently.
“Why didn’t you tell me you were part of the Chamber?” I ask bluntly.
She sighs, the steam from her drink dissolving before reforming into a mist in front of her face. Slowly, she places down her cup, apparently needing the time to think of how to reply.
“Because it’s a time of my life I try to forget,” she explains.
I shake my head as confusion grips me. “You didn’t enjoy it?”
“Oh, quite the opposite,” she replies, a smile even sneaking into the words. “I loved every minute of it. It was as though I was born to take that role.”
I wrap my hands around my mug, leaning my elbows on the table to angle closer to her. “Then why did you leave?”
Her expression breaks. “Because Rook died.”
She circles the wooden stirrer in her mug as she stares down into the revolving liquid. “I lost myself for a while. I was barely in a position to think for myself, let alone make decisions that would affect so many other people.”
“It sounds like they valued you,” I comment. “Wouldn’t they have given you time?”
She nods, but still doesn’t meet my eye. “They would have, but…stepping back into that role would have brought back too many memories.” Her gaze flicks up. “And it would have taken me away from you even more than my current position.”
Chani pauses to laugh her ass off
#Fold my arms. "Why didn't you step away completely if you wanted to be with me?"
*if (mothernewr <= 40)
I fold my arms at her statement, struggling to find truth in it when her years of absence speak against her. "Why didn't you step away from all of this completely if you wanted to be with me?"
*goto chap12_rebchat3
*else
I fold my arms at her statement, wondering why she wasn't around more if that was the case. "Why didn't you step away from all of this completely if you wanted to be with me?"
*goto chap12_rebchat3
*label chap12_rebchat3
"My position as it is now was still consuming," she states. "And…I didn't know how to raise you. Rook was a natural. I was not."
I let out a long breath.
"But now," her eyes glisten with tears she's trying so hard to hold back, "at least we can be together."
*goto chap12_rebchat4
And, to the point:
Rubbing at the side of my head in small circles, I figure a change of subject is probably a good idea.
“So did you meet Unit Bravo through being a chamber member?”
Her expression slowly tenses back into its usual work-focused mask. “No. That came after. When I left the Chamber, I chose to become a handler.”
“Did you choose Unit Bravo too?” What was just a change of subject is suddenly drawing out my full curiosity.
“In a way we found each other.” She rubs her hands together before laying them gracefully on the tabletop. “Unit Bravo had just…lost their previous handler. There was an opening. We ended up just falling together because of it.”
*if ((charming <= 35)or(friendly <= 35))
I snort out a breath. “That’s not quite the story I was expecting. Everything involving Unit Bravo usually is a lot more dramatic.”
*goto chap12_rebchat6
*else
I let out a light chuckle. “That’s not quite the story I was expecting. Everything involving Unit Bravo usually is a lot more dramatic.”
*goto chap12_rebchat6
*label chap12_rebchat6
She laughs, but it’s more strained than expected. “Then you wouldn’t be disappointed in how that opening came to be.”
My brows shoot up. “Really?”
Her mouth opens, but the sound that comes out is not what I’m expecting. It takes me a moment to realise the ringing is from her phone, not from her.
A second later, my own phone begins to buzz urgently in my pocket.
So she apparently went to UB as their handler soon after Rook died and she bailed from the Chamber because it was so hard. Woe is her…
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AAAGGHHHFG???!!?!! SOMEHOW THIS MAKES IT EVEN WORSE!! SHE KEPT A CHILD SHE HAD NO REAL INTENTION OF RAISING BC SHE NEVER REALLY WANTED KIDS?? WHY? FOR WHAT REASON???
i must’ve misremembered because i thought rook died because of an agency job gone wrong. it has been a long time since i’ve read the first two books for sure.
honestly. MC must be effectively immortal to survive the shitshow that is their childhood.
LOL! so she gave up the chamber position in part to spend more time with MC and then didn’t spend more time with the MC that is so funny to me hahahahahaha
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Aaaaaah. Admittedly I skimmed through most of the book, so I didn’t catch that. I was picturing a semi-permanent nanny or a relative or a friend (I do believe one can serve as a parental figure, if they behave that way, if the actual parent is not up to the job).
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Katheryn Winnick’s phone number, please, thank you. 
My remembering was accurate, then. Thanks. 
He did. Sort of? He was the Agency’s liaison in Wayhaven, and was killed by supernaturals. That’s pretty much all we know.
EDIT:
Pick whichever sounds funnier to you:
- She didn’t want to do it, she just wanted to have that option. It’s sort of like buying your own coffee maker and then drinking nothing but orange juice.
or
- She was going to, but then she was assigned to Unit Bravo and she realised she was ALREADY dealing with four immature creatures that need constant supervision to not get themselves killed.
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Personally it was book 3 where the cracks were front and center for me. We should have gotten more progress with the characters and world building. This book should have been titled missed opportunities.
The more I think about how our choice to confess our love to M was taken away because Sera wasn’t ready yet, the more upset I get 
. She should have given the option for those of us who want to confess now, so we can deal with M emotions in the latter half of book three into book four. Then those who don’t want to confess yet can deal with it in book 4.
I already hate the trope with the interruptions and cockblocking. But the way it was used for M moments, horrendous! why take that away from your audience!?!?
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