Disliked Elements, Mechanics, and Tropes

General
2392

I agree, I’ve long hated the Everyman trope, it usually goes like this: the most average dude you can think of, let’s say this guy:
image
gets a hot gf or a harem and the world bends backwards to include him, even though he doesn’t add anything but be either nice (the heart, the shoulder to cry on for supernatural creatures who never been treated well) or dumb (which moves the plot along).

The thing about regular MC amidst supernatural creatures: they can’t feel like they are being humoured by the narrative.
And that’s difficult not to do.
It’s definitely not an “everyman” if they have exceptional qualities that help them thrive. And let’s be honest, if everyone’s special and MC is not, MC is in the weaker position - smart? Someone’s smarter. Strong? Most supernatural creatures are stronger. Have loads of money so they can fashion themselves a mecha suit or a batsuit? Not a regular person anymore.

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2393

Magical girls are gonna come knocking on your door

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2394

I think I don’t grasp something here - if everyone has special abilities, shouldn’t everyman in that setting have special abilities there as well?

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2395

I assumed we were talking about a situation where a regular human MC finds themself in a supernatural cast or a gets isekai’d into a supernatural filled world.
Everyman is an audience surrogate. In the setting itself, they can be special for being so underpowered. What matters is that for us, the audience, MC is an Average Joe.

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2396

Yes, i understand. But when it’s all that at once, it just feel kind of surreal to me. I just can’t imagine that somebody could be so unlucky.

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2397

Take a look at the outside world. What we write about is like 1% of the misery that actually really exists…say in Ethiopia. And yes, bad luck can plague people repeatedly, just like good luck can cling to someone Unworthy.

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2398

Long since grown tired to the “hero who fights to help people and protect the innocent gets called shallow or shortsighted by everyone else or gets accused of hero complex because their motivation is selfless and their attitude is idealistic.” Not everyone who does good things has a complex or a hidden selfish desire for like, praise or some shit.

One of the reasons I like MGR is that anytime Raiden gets speeches about how “it’s more complicated than you think” or “protecting the weak is too nebulous, you can’t save everyone” he’s just like “so what? Anyway, back to the grind.” Like he reflects on it but he doesn’t really give up on being selfless.

It’s like people don’t get that having largely unselfish motivations isn’t unrealistic and not everyone who goes the extra mile to help people has a complex. Wanting to help people is normal. “But have you ever though about what YOU want?” I want these people to stop suffering, what isn’t clicking? Not everything needs a thesis.

There are plenty of well written stories that have some internal motivational conflict like, “how do I look out for myself while helping others?” and other such things, but sometimes it’s just shoehorned in when the hero’s actions have had only positive effects on themselves and others.

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2399

In Response to @comradelenin :
I mean, if you really wanted to have that said without actually feeling like you are talking down to the MC like a petulant child, I think a better way of approaching this would be giving the MC an opportunity to respond to something where them being a “Hero” does actually make the situation worse. (Think Powder in Arcane, she tries to be a hero and in doing so makes situations directly worse. Sometimes, knowing your boundaries is important.)
IMO, the problem with this trope is that the main character is being told how to feel. They are being told that they are childish for wanting to help people.
I think that can be a problem for a lot of writers though, it’s hard to find the balance of show don’t tell. I personally have a tendency to show too much myself.

Second Response to comra (I don’t wanna @ you again):
That is fair, I think.I honestly think that having an optimistic MC who helps to let others see that there is sometimes things you can do and you don’t have to assume the worst… That trying to do good even if it fails is better than not trying at all because at least you can say you did your best… I can respect it.

In Response to @lis-walker :
My thing is always “Why can’t they just do something to earn the credit they are given.” Like, you don’t have to be the smartest, the strongest, or have the most money. If you can show compassion, or another trait, do something that makes them recognize the value in you…
For example, what if instead of it them just randomly saying they all think you are awesome because you are human… What if instead you helped a supernatural, knowing what they were but too focused on the harm being brought to them to care. Or if you hid one, there are a few options. A circumstance where a supernatural is in danger and the MC helps save them, and as a result is respected. I think it would be a nice turn on the damsel in distress MC stereotype.

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2400

That’s all well and good but the message itself is one I’ve heard so often I can’t stand it anymore.

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2401

The big old reset button.

I feel that it takes away from the strife and especially the feel of the whole story when you reach the climatic end just for it to… let’s do all of that all over again but everyone is alive now and I know what killed them! (And still somehow retaining all that power obviously)

Just using that as your ending feels so terribly shitty.

I don’t know if a trope but the other thing that just kills my spirits is just the buildup of a very interesting and intricate character/scenario with the potential of being even more but it doesn’t ever go past being just surface-level. Which just leans even more into disliking perfect characters.

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2402

Now I kinda want to see a New Game + situation where the antagonists actually know the MC already went through the plot and as such, everything isn’t how it was in the first time (namely… the culprit is someone else entirely).

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2403

Have you played Undertale?

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2404

Nope never.

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2405

I’m getting to the point where stories where the ending is more or less chalked up to, “good job, you did nothing of worth and the war rages on” just wear me out.

Back in the old Demon’s Souls, the ending being ambiguous but leaning towards you either making things objectively worse or simply extending the misery that already exists was an effective and thought-provoking gut punch that I appreciated. You struggle your way through a world of fading glory, work yourself to the bone to finish off the shambling corpses of ancient heroes and gods who didn’t get the memo that their time was done, and achieve aims once believed to be impossible because nobody had ever been able to work out the mechanics behind them prior to now… but ultimately, the world is still shit, it’s still dying, and your name will remain unsung because nobody is alive to care anymore. Nice shiny, magical sword you got there, too bad all its luster is good for is reflecting the light of a dying sun onto the ruined heap you’re standing in.

But like I said, that was back in the OG 2009 Demon’s Souls.

Three Dark Souls, one Bloodborne, one Sekiro, a Demon’s Souls remake and an Elden Ring later, I’m starting to wonder if From Software has any other story beats they could possibly work from. I’ve become the solemn monarch of at least four worlds of fading glory now, can I please get an approval for my transfer request out of the Barely Holding On Department?

And Elden Ring has a whole buffet of ways that you can effectively achieve nothing of value or otherwise make things worse! The arguably happiest endings are the ones where you either completely ditch the Lands Between and forge a whole new world with hookers and blackjack (Age of Stars ending), or just say to hell with it and let that whole mess burn (Frenzied Flame, working with THE LOATHSOME DUNG EATER and yes, it is mandatory to be as aggressively spiteful as the game’s narrator when you say that, probably others that I’m forgetting right at the moment), whereas the default ending where you just become Elden Lord is effectively you just extending the misery that already exists.

It’s not just From Software, either, it seems like we’ve regressed back to the early 2000s idea that dark and edgy stories are, by their very nature, automatically mature and intellectual masterpieces, when in reality, nine out of ten of them are just emotionally and mentally exhausting.

I’m not saying every story has to have a happy ending, not by a long shot. I’m just getting tired - again, two decades later - of all the grim and gritty misery, that’s all. Let me claim the throne of a world of fading glory and usher in an age of new prosperity for once, is that so much to ask?

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2406

We should make an entire different talk about From Software and Miyazaki…
But for the rest I agree: A lot of authors (even famous ones) think that just writing more edgy, dark, erotic and/or gore means necessary more mature and sophisticated literature

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2407

I just point to FS games because they spring most immediately to mind for my argument. I’m not intentionally trying to spark a whole thing against Miyazaki, he just happens to encapsulate the lion’s share of my talking points. XD

Like I said, it’s not strictly FS, either, this has been a thing since… oh, the first Half-Life? Maybe even before that? I can’t claim to know every edgy video game that’s ever been made, I just know it’s a lot of them.

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2408

Oh, I’m right there with ya. I don’t understand the point of those. “Congratulations! You wasted your time!”

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2409

I’ve never even played a From Software game, but I feel like I could summarize them all just because of how similar they (plot-wise) sound to each other. “A once glorious world is now dying, you fight all its old heroes/legendary figures who are now disgusting/evil monsters for basically no reason because none of the endings lead to good things, and it’s always somehow religion’s fault.” How close am I?

So yeah, I agree, I don’t care much for the “every ending is bad” trope. I get why some people like it, for the angst and all, but I don’t myself.

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2410

Pretty much on the money, expect the religion part. While worship and religion do play major roles in from software games, it’s more about people messing around with things they don’t or can’t understand to achieve the unachievable. Then those interactions leads to f*ckkery and that’s how you get a standard from software world.

It’s basically “F*ck around and find out”. Blood borne whole entire aseop is littered with this motto.

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2411

I hate it when wrestling tropes aren’t used. Every game ever could use more.

Let me put the villain through a table. That’ll bring 'em down a peg.

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