This topic was automatically opened after 6 hours.
As to not close the topic, I will keep away from personal anecdotes. (Sorry).
On this we agree. What we do not agree on is that superpower automatically give people real power and thus privilege.
As said, I agree with @HomingPidgeon that if superpowers was sudddenly real in ‘our’ world I think that discrimination would be divided along the lines it all ready is. A rich get ricer situation.
I think we would get something like:
-
Johnson the white rich kid can ‘charm’ people. That’s a cool power and mostly harmless, he just makes himself likeable, won’t he make a good politican?
-
Jackson the weird POC, Queer kid doesn’t charm people, he controls their mind and that really needs to be regulated! And look his classmate who is maybe a bit of a jerk and has always been rough on Jackson, is acting strangely, I bet it is Jackson did something: Supervillain! We need to lock him away immediatly.
Notice that in the above situation it is not even guraenteed that Jackson did something, the mere suggestion that he might have is enough to get him punished. Superpower only gets to be real power if the user can get away with using them without being jumped by ten armed guards or something like that.
That being said, if anybody here feel like I have personally attacked them I am sorry. I have not intended to. @idonotlikeusernames, I hope we are good. If you really do want those studies about bullying I can try to look them up, but I suspect that they might be scandinavian and maybe not available in english.
3 Likes
I honestly appreciate your thoughts on the idea I have conceived and I will read that article you have linked. I have studied some history in the past and I fully understand the whole idea that superhumans themselves are really not a great stand-in for an oppressed minorities.
Thus far, my solution to the problem in my story was to give the superhumans incredibly limited powers and refrained from stereotypical powers such as laser eyes. The superhumans in my take, are humans with an add-on. They could still get shot in the head and die, they could act stupid, and could be beat in a fist fight. Super powerful superhumans will be present but there will be a very small amount of them. Do note that your feedback will of course play into the further development of the story, it’s characters, and it’s worldbuilding. Once again, thank you for sharing your thoughts on the concept itself.
1 Like
It’s an interesting discussion you have going here, I just wanted to point out; while bullying and discrimination does absolutely have a lot to do with power and privilege, the bully is usually in such a position that they sort of percieve themself as having less power than they truly have. So, you’re kind of both right. Of course, this is a generalisation, but socioeconomical power (ex wealth, race, gender, religion) + interpersonal difficulties (ex. bad self-confidence, fear, health issues) = pretty good recipe for a bully.
Now, oppression (as opposed to discrimination) is more complicated and has a lot more to do with culture and history and all that. Anyway, sorry, carry on. Just felt the need to point that out.
4 Likes
Well the history is interesting, the whole superhumans as stand-in for gay people/minorities really proliferated after the moronic comics and Hays codes in the US. Unfortunately the whole superhumans / oppressed mages thing is, in the vast majority of cases, a piss-poor stand in for actually powerless groups or people.
In very rare instances the trope can be made to work, but that really requires putting an awful lot of work into the setting, whereas most mainstream writers have sadly mostly been tempted to use them as a lazy stand-in for whatever group/person(s) or socioeconomic issue they want to talk about. In the old days conservative censorship may have provided a fig leaf of justification for that…today that is, imho, complete bullshit, at least in the US and Western Europe.
On the other hand if you’re just in it for the cool powers and action scenes, which, imho, is totally valid as a reason too…those can still be had and likely even moreso in a setting where superhumans or mages are not supposed to be a stand-in for x oppressed, or at least less powerful in real life group.
4 Likes
Well, it have to be important and coherent for the story or the universe. Not just for fun. After it’s up to player choice. Create a character who will be victim of it or create a character who can be a real jerk or in the contrary fight against it.
I remember a good campaign in Shadowrun where the meta-human are see as low level citizen (particulary orc and troll). There is a human supremacy.
You can be any race, elf, dwarf, troll, orc or human. You will be victim of racism with a meta-human (it’s even worse with a orc or a troll) but not with a human. You can even be racist yourself (but hey, a good paycheck can do wonders), stay neutral (you’re just a mercenary, I feel for you but I’m not gonna die over it) or be a hero and fight for egality.
What was fun is that even as a meta-human you could be racist (it’s a sad character, I didn’t go really far with my elf).
I really enjoy my dwarven girl dope with sugar. A character who enjoy fighting and a noble cause… and partying… and eat sugar.
1 Like
Honestly with superhumans if they’re hugely discriminated against I mostly would believe it if they’re a natural danger to people around them and there’s some good reason for them not taking over the world. Of course that doesn’t make them as good stand in for most groups either. Though if most people have powers I’d imagine very heavy discrimination too. Like sorting people into classes depending on how useful they are. And then those people who have powers that would casually ruin lives or are only really useful for harming people would also be in a bad spot.
Another thing I noticed is animal people. And then I wonder if someone high up had an allergy.
3 Likes
What you said is true… from a certain point of view 
What wouldn’t change is how we as humans function: it would “simply” add another variable to the models and theories psychology and sociology worked out thus far. From there it depends just what exactly “superpowers” means, not only in terms of abilities or enhanced senses, but how it affects people on biological level.
I also believe you might have projected a bit too much on your Johnson/Jackson example. Jealousy already plays a big part in our everyday interactions, and that kind of superpower would only amplify negative perceptions people might have of this Johnson kid. Not to mention, had “mind powers” been a thing - I can imagine the outspoken, good-looking charismatic fellas being mistakenly accused or suspected of “cheating”, as we’re likely to pile on negative attributes to people we don’t think kindly of, which has it’s rationale, albeit not the logical one.
The important point being, “superpowers” would definitely fall under a lot of scrutiny and attention, from both general public and scientists as well as representants of the state (it’s hard to imagine supers being allowed to display most of mainstream powers in public due to safety reasons, and both Johnson and Jackson with those skills would be too scary of an addition to a regular school for their peers and their parents to accept).
Now, when it comes to discrimination and oppression, these are powerful tools in the hands of a storyteller, mostly because of their range and relatability, but also because they inherently (like ie. clash of opposing cultures) create conflict, giving the protagonist a force to combat/defeat (or even maintain, if the alternative was far more destructive from their perspective, altho upholding existing order is somewhat rarely explored). Of course, as with other powerful tools, they must be used wisely but they certainly have place in IF, where they can be tackled from the comfort of one’s home, in a world far far away.
I think, personally for me, the iffiest thing with superbeings/mages as a stand in for oppressed groups is that it gives the people doing the oppression a ‘logical’ reason for thinking those people are dangerous. Which is not the case in the real world.
And that strays uncomfortably close to some real world narratives that tries to assign minority groups powers they don’t have in order to justify the hate.
It can be done, but there’s a lot to consider.
17 Likes
I do admit that the Johnson - Jackson example was purposefully very simplefied. Realistically we would also have to take into account which kind of powers would be judged cool/useful/harmless and which would be judged harmful/creepy/evil - I am fairly sure discrimaiton would crop up amongst those axises too as some powered people would win influence while others just wouldn’t.
But we also have remember that a lot of research get sponsoered. So who pay for what gets researched would also influence what is known…
Do all the first research concentrate on the shapeshifers? Or the enchanced people? Or the mindreaders? Who pays for this. The goverments? Private people?
Of course, in most world, we are not in our world. The X-men, for example, are part of a universe in which other kind of superpowered people exist and the resourcesful (cough, iron man cough) can absolutely buy themselves power equal most.
And then we are not even touching on magic which also exist in Marvel and can be studied.
Or the gods/alien.
I do think that often becomes a serious problem, yes.
1 Like
Well, isn’t magic just a phenomenom we have not yet explained? 
As for the research, I would argue both. For the state it would be a matter of interior security, and depending on what it allows in the public sector, private initiatives would be undertaken in the “underground” or ie. in cooperation with universities, as it happens nowadays. Funnily just today riding a tram I imagined, if electricity that powers it was sourced from a “magical” reactor and from there I briefly ventured into application of controlling matter in physics, engineering or chemistry related fields. Without doubt many companies would be interested in participating in education of their future staff, something that would also impose a need to understand the phenomenom first.
…daily and game shows on tv/internet would change quite a bunch.
Typically, the protagonists in these stories are the oppressed ones and it’s their side the stories aim for us to empathise with, but I do agree on a point, that it shouldn’t be simply a straight mask - or a stand in, if I understood ir properly - for any particular real world community. The narrative you mention - as well as it’s counter-part, that assigns majority such powers - similarly is a tough concept to try to dress in outwordly clothes.
That being said, we can’t be too hasty and imply a correlation where there might be none. Oppression and discrimination are universal themes, and such is their use in stories for valid reasons. It takes time and thought to properly implement them in the process of world-bulding, but storytelling - for all it’s potential - is not the easiest of crafts
Not in the marvel universe, no. That’s honestly a mess.
I think games and interactive fiction has an unique problem here because sometimes they do not always place us in the oppress group. Sometimes that’s a choice.
Which can make the whole thing even more dicy.
Sure, however perhaps the most likely people to do that would be the superhumans themselves to establish an internal pecking order.
Then there is the fact that due to the rule of cool most superhuman protagonists in actuality have really useful powers.
Exactly, if gay people or Jews or witches had historically had even low level superpowers history would have gone entirely differently. A real witch would have used magic to fight or evade witch hunters at the very least.
Are you kidding? We do have armies, you know. Besides there are almost no powers that are solely useful for harming people. If I was a pacifist with the classical laser eyes I could always rent myself out as a man-sized (and far more capable than what we currently have) industrial superlaser. Sure it wouldn’t be as glamorous as being a crime fighting celebrity but it would be a living and even if I ask for a salary of a million bucks to start with I can do far more for far less cost, energy consumption and bulk then the current industrial superlasers.
11 Likes
I mean like Rogue, Parasite. Life drain would fit that bill right? And power absorption would just be crippling someone. Power off of others pain and suffering etc…
Plus all in all there’d naturally be a dear of someone who can kill you very easily at the drop of a hat. Raising a kid would be a nightmare too.
Like I said, I don’t think they wouldn’t be unless they’re extremely low in number or the powers aren’t extremely useful.
Building off of what @malinryden said earlier:
Malin touches on a point that a lot of writers who use the mutants=minorities allegory fail to realize: those who are doing the oppression believe that they are being perfectly reasonable to do so—either out of religious purposes or a desire to consolidate power.
When you write a fictional story where the oppressors literally do have a valid reason to lock up the super people (for example: Dragon Age and their possession-prone mages), people who are part of an oppressive system, either wittingly or otherwise, have their value systems justified or explained in a way that makes it a bit more sympathetic.
13 Likes
Of course, the oppressed mages/superbeings trope can be handled poorly and it’s not the best metaphor for real world oppression. However, I would argue that the story frame of oppressed mages can go beyond a simple stand in for oppression, and offer a framework for the exploration of more complex matters.
Usually, I think that stories that involve the existence of magic or superpowers have more to do with the nature of power and how that affects the lives of those who have it and their places in the societies they belong to. Often the position of power is related to the burden of having to deal with painful choices and responsibilities in order to remain a good person. It’s not uncommon that a magic user or a superhero finds his place in the world to be somewhere between the light and the dark for the greater good, and this uncertain position is what makes them susceptible to become dangerous or “evil” despite the desire to be accepted within their communities or being percieved as “good”.
The hard choices that powerful individuals have to make is what often makes them be feared or rejected by their communities. In this cases, oppression is a consequence of fear of the powerful by the powerless. This is different from societal power, which is often the product of a system that allows these hierarchies to exist tin the first place. This is the reason why, in my opinion, you can’t always create a good metaphor for societal powers through magic or superpowers.
I personally prefer to think of magic or superpowers as their own reality, and see how this intersects with other structures or forms of oppression. A personal favourite (as well as an option I tend to lead to when writing these sort of things) would be witches and wizars (just an example not neccessarily this one). Think of a world where magic exist, but while male or rich magic users are regarded as as noble and academic; women would be considered nefarious or unnatural. That is a better metaphor for the way we tend to demonized marginalized people in positions of power, rather than power itself.
I feel like I have a mess of ideas that i might not be expressing in the most articulate way possible, I hope I’m making myself clear…
9 Likes
…except the Dragon Age featured an extremely compelling (and flawed, and conflicted) world that was interesting to discover and lose yourself in (the different experiences of city and dalish elves alone, not to mention other races), where templars-mages situation was made all the better because both sides had their points and reasons. It takes some mental gymnastics to extrapolate “super people” in form of possession-prone mages to any reality outside of the franchise, because you have to ignore everything but the fact, that one group oppressed another one, which doesn’t even cover that the “other ones” were able to summon satanic abominations of disasterous proportions into the world. In my opinion it would be a loss of a great story had the creators abandoned it simply because it had elements of oppression within it (and it would take away opportunity for players to make up their own mind on the issue, which is a big fat plus from me).
You kinda lost me in last paragraph (what are the in-world reasons for such clear cut black and white divide), but otherwise an interesting take.
2 Likes
You articulated this beautifully!
I 100% agree with the point that magic/superpowers will never be a 1:1 allegory of real-world oppression; there’s just too many new variables added when dealing with fantasy. This isn’t to say a meaningful story about oppression with a fantastical context can’t be done well, and oppressed groups will always search for similarities (and differences) in situations like these.
And you also make an excellent point about the intersectionality of oppression. If people with magical powers are discriminated against, it is a sure thing that the discrimination would be much worse for women and people of color. It’s important not to forget that, if you’re writing in a universe that’s a reflection of ours, or writing a story that is attempting social commentary.
3 Likes
I wouldn’t want to be in the publishers shoes here. Games don’t magically spring into existence overnight. Do you encourage people to spend two years of their life making something which in the end result might be too offensive to publish? I think COGs no discrimination policy is wise.