Critiquing vs Criticizing

[malinryden]

I just want to chime in briefly that if there are worries about getting in conflict with other fans, there are always pms. A lot of people use that to get in touch with me when they feel like maybe it might get lost in the thread.

[The_Lady_Luck]

One thing I miss in the role of author is actually the “negative” feedback. The “why I didn’t like this WIP”, “why I stopped reading after the first scene”, etc.

'Cause I found myself with a lot of insecurity about exactly that.

Is my writing too bland? Too short? Does people get turned off by the gender thing? Is the premise just not interesting?

Lots of unfocused anxiety, that won’t go away, because I don’t know how to fix it, when I don’t know how it’s broken.

And then I feel like a bloody hypocrite, because I do not provide that feedback either.
I read most WIP’s here, and when I don’t like them for some reason, I don’t post to tell the author so, because I don’t feel comfortable that they will be okay with that.

Even when I enjoy a WIP, I mostly don’t mention the negatives, unless I have a lot of positives to hide it amongst, or the author have been very clear they want it.

EDIT: Typos and bugs are easy to report, and generally neutral and objective.
But high level feedback? That’s much more subjective and intimidating.

[MeltingPenguins]

Ah, another personal thing:

I am regarded as very negative and biting. However, i tend to not relist what i like if it has been states before.
And if there is little i did like, i’ll mention it, but i don’t see a reason then to pretend there was more good stuff just to balance things.

Though with anxiety flaring up again i refrain from that now, though that leads to authors getting upset that no one told them

[poison_mara]

I do mention the negatives that’s my problem really. I can’t be polite and say only the good because Market out there won’t sugarcoat anything. Apple stores ratings wont be politically correct. They will give you a rating in base a demo in most cases.

I think sincere here is what makes all better later. Now it could be fixed. The problem is I am the only one that thinks that way. I don’t know when author wants SINCERE feedback or when want Ego feedback. People says Sincere feedback but normally doesn’t mean sincere. It means … all of you know what I mean. There should be a tag saying Mara feedback allowed lol.

[resuri08]

Perhaps the brash tone put people off. It reminds me a lot of what was put in my performance report that I was too direct that I should put my thoughts in a mild way.

Sometimes, it is a culture thing. In my country, you shouldn’t be too direct so if you noticed most of my post. It felt like I provide too much positive feedback. But most people say that you could provide feedback without being too blunt or too positive. Perhaps we should learn to balance them.

[poison_mara]

I am from a family that does all contrary and from a culture famous for that. I try to be nicer. But for me is difficult be nicer and still don’t feel like i am lying. I mean for me if I dont like X detail. I feel really bad if I don’t say so. Because it is like lying the Author. Imagine if i don’t say so game launches and Apple store TRASH the author for same I didn’t say i didn’t like it. I would feel bad and guilty. Because maybe author could have improved that point. Maybe I made the author lost money. Or a fan …

I take give feedback very seriously. We are the helpers to author to launching the best possible game to have success and maybe do a career from that is not a game.

But something i should learn to balance. @Eiwynn @Eric_knight and several other people like @JimD have been patient and explain me how say or how NOT say stuff. For me is a process as i am stubborn as a mule and passionate. still I am getting the concept.

[resuri08]

I understand your point that you have to point it out bluntly in order to address the issue. It is difficult at times to convey your opinion, especially if English is your secondary language.
Also another issue as a non-English speaker is English comprehension. Even though I have been reading English materials ever since I was a child, I tend to misinterpret what the author is trying to say so asking for a clarification would help beneficially. So far, the authors I have interacted with were patient enough with some of us non-English readers and I hope future authors has patience for these as well.

[squarelyblue]

The thing I feel that many people don’t understand about critique is that it’s a two-way street. In a perfect scenario, the person giving critique would be giving advice on ways that the story could be improved, with the awareness that their advice is subjective to their worldview and personal tastes, and the person receiving would acknowledge it, but may or may not use that advise as they see fit. What the writer does from that point is out of the the critiquer’s hands, for better or for worse.

In a perfect scenario, the person giving does so politely and does not only tear down on the weak points and the receiver acknowledges the advice and thanks them for it regardless of whether or not they decide to take it. And also, critique should be willing. If someone does not want critique, even if it would strongly improve their work, that should be respected and they should be left alone.

Not all types of feedback are critique and not all feedback may be welcome. “The story feels weak in this part, it could be improved by so-an-so” is critique. It points out what could be improved and provides one way (out of many) to do so.

“You suck” is not critique. “This character is stupid and I want to kill them” is not critique. “I don’t like this, you should have done (unrelated plot or character point that has no basis in the canon and would take the story in an entirely different way)” is also not critique.

Unfortunately on the internet, all these types of criticism are very common. If you want a story completely different from the writer’s intent, you’re best off writing your own story and leaving the writer alone at that point, not trying to bend their will to please you.

No one wants having demands made to them. Maybe someone doesn’t use a piece critique they get because they didn’t feel like it or there was no place for it in the story. That’s fine (in a general sense). Maybe they do change their story, but in a way that’s different from what the critique suggested. Maybe that just means that the feedback they got showed that their intent wasn’t clear before, or maybe they just wanted to take a different direction entirely. Maybe they felt like the feedback they got was in a rude and/or condescending tone so they chose to not use it because of that. These are all valid responses to critique because, in the end, the writer is the one in charge of the story.

However, another type of feedback that isn’t quite critique (in all cases) but is still valuable is that when an idea promoted in the story is pointed out as morally reprehensible in some way. It could range from being simply ignorant of it (which could easily be remedied) to being outright malicious in hate speech (which is less easy to deal with). Despite shockingly popular belief, someone saying that hate speech and violence is bad is not wrong or infringing on anyone’s freedom of speech.

[resuri08]

@squarelyblue

in the end, the writer is the one in charge of the story.

I have to admit I rarely give story feedback because I tend to think this is how the author wants their story to be told.

[Eiwynn]

@resuri08

I have to admit I rarely give story feedback because I tend to think this is how the author wants their story to be told.

I’d like to address this a bit, if I may -

Part of the publication process for HG titles is to gather feedback. If a title doesn’t get enough feedback, then it may be in danger of being delayed for publication.

So, everyone contributing critique and feedback is providing a service to the author.

One of the reasons feedback is needed for HG authors is to tell them if their story is likely to sell.

Even if an author wants to tell their story in a way which does not work, they still might want to change the game so that it will sell.

Ultimately, it is the author’s choice to act on feedback given - that is very true.

If that feedback is never given, then the author no longer has a choice.

Even if the author rejects your feedback (as is their right to do) you are still providing them a chance to make change. If you decline to provide that feedback then tat choice never opens up for them to accept or decline.

[resuri08]

Thank you for the sound advice. Perhaps I tend to be too much of a people pleaser that it will not help both parties in the long run.

[rose-court]

I’m going to crosspost my post in the other topic in case this helps or if people want to ask questions.

@rose-court

You know, in my English class in elementary school, we gave feedback on writing using the Oreo method, and I’ve pretty much been using that my whole life to great effect. At least, it’s the type of critiquing method that everyone in my art classes in college appreciated the most.

In the Oreo method you simply:

• Tell the recipient what you like most about their work.
  * “I really like Jack, he’s a great character.”
  * “I find your use of red in this composition to be so compelling.”
  * “Your opening paragraph has a really great hook, and makes me want to read the rest of your essay.”
• Tell the receipient what didn’t work for you.
  * “By contrast, I thought Jill was less developed than Jack.”
  * “However, I think your use of orange in the piece undermines the power of the red.”
  * “Unfortunately, I don’t think your final paragraph was nearly as attention grabbing as the first.”
• Then tell them something else that you liked.
  * “I think it’s really cool how Jeff subverts your expectations.”
  * “What does help, though, is the use of cool-toned colors in the rest of the piece.”
  * “The good thing is that your arguments are still strong in the rest of your essay!”
• Finally, and most importantly, be sure to elaborate on each point as much as you can.
  * Why do you think Jack worked as a character but Jill didn’t? Is there anything about Jack or Jeff that Jill could use?
  * How does the orange undermine the red?Explain how these components interact with one another in your point of view.
  * What about the last paragraph makes it weaker than the preceding paragraph?

And then from there, if the author or artist asks for you to elaborate further or to give them suggestions of examples, then you can dive in.

“Well, Jeff starts off with little to no skills like Jill, but he actually gets motivated to change and that’s why when he saves Jack, the certified badass, it’s so rewardining. Jill, though, stays static. What if Jill got her own motivation to get cool like Jeff, and maybe shows off her skills by saving Jack too?”

“I think limiting yourself to one warm color instead of two will help strengthen your piece. You either do blues-and-red and take advantage of our reference for primary colors, or you could do blues-and-orange and take advantage of how pleasing contrasting colors look.”

“What if you take some of the sentences that made your opening paragraph so punchy and reword them for the last paragraph?”

---

I hope this helps!

[ashestoashes018]

I also want to touch on receiving constructive criticism. There has been a lot of productive commentary on how to give, but very little on how to receive.

It is really, really difficult to be told by someone that they didn’t like x, y, or z, no matter how nicely they state it. Because this work is an extension of who you are, as a person. For all intents and purposes, it is your baby. You are creating it, molding it, and putting it out into the world.

The most productive way to accept criticism, especially if it hit a sore point for you, or you’re not used to hearing criticism, is to take a step back. Wait 2-3 hours before responding. Read through the points that the criticiser put forward, particularly if specific examples are given. Try to view the work not as the author, but as the audience.

Then, thank the person for their time and just tell them you appreciate the thought that went into their criticism. You don’t have to tell them “yes, I am going to change this,” or “no, this is my work. Leave me alone.” Just say, “Thank you. I will take your thoughts into consideration. I appreciate your time.”

Being careful about how you respond, especially if you don’t like the criticism, or it hurts your feelings, is very key in keeping things from escalating. Trust me, I know from 14 years of experience posting my writing online. I have made some baaaad mistakes that ended up making me feel way worse.

[NaomiL]

Very well put!

I would also add, that in my opinion, for me, something that also plays a role is that it is very important to know how to hold different opinions and to learn to disagree. I think this plays a role in both giving feedback, but also receiving it, and can make the whole exchange a lot more pleasant and helpful.

If a reader states their opinion about what doesn’t work, even if the writer doesn’t agree, and after careful consideration decides not to implement it, or if two readers have two different opinions, that’s okay. This spreads into a wider issue, sure, that can be applied through the forum and throughout the internet, and just in general in life, but is also relevant for giving feedback and receiving feedback.

Someone having a different opinion than you does not always need to be debated with, and you don’t always need the last word. You can each respectfully state your thoughts, and sure, you can have some discussion on it if you think it’s helpful, and as a writer you should carefully and as honestly as possible consider if they’re right, but sometimes it’s best to just judge that the benefit of discussing the point has run it’s course, and that’s okay to just end it there, respectfully and happily and with mutual respect.

Honestly if you apply mutual respect to the process, I think you go a long way in improving feedback: the way you give it and the way you receive it.

[will]

sandwich critique

I know it’s a popular method of giving critique, but it’s so pervasive that it can often come across as disingenuous.

Positive: I liked that you put so much work into this! You tried your best!

Negative: Your grammar is unreadable. Every word is spelled wrong. None of the plot makes sense and all of your characters are unlikeable. My advice to you is to take up golfing instead.

Positive: You might make a good golfer! You never know until you try!

Obviously that’s a bit extreme but it often feels like the two “nice” things are just there as a way to soften the blow of the “mean” thing, which is the main crux of the critique anyway. The nice things aren’t important, as it seems.

I mean most of the time the nice things aren’t even related to the mean thing, which is a dead giveaway that they were just searching for something nice to say.

Positive: I like the … uh … use of … alliteration … in this particular part –

NEGATIVE: THIS ENTIRE SCENE IS PACED POORLY BECAUSE OF X, Y, AND Z

Positive: – and also this character had a really nice name?

[ashestoashes018]

Well, I disagree a little bit on that front. While it may sometimes come across as disingenuous, it can be a lot better received. I’ve seen some people, in the past, come under attack for just putting the negatives in their comment, regardless of whether they’d been singing the author’s praises before.

Not to mention, it can be really hard to take, from the author’s perspective. Here’s this random person, seemingly nitpicking everything about your baby. In your mind, it can be like, “Bruh, why even comment, if you hated it so much.”

So I, personally, like to say something along the lines of, “I really enjoyed the WIP so far! It has an engaging storyline, however sometimes it feels as though the main character is meant to be male, rather than female. A lot of masculine verbiage is used. Perhaps you could try to make it more gender-neutral or just gender-lock it to male. That said, I really did enjoy it, and I hope to see more in the future.”

I may not have gone as into detail about the positives as I did the negatives, but generally, a positive doesn’t need further explanation. You already like it, so why tell the author to fix what ain’t broke, right?

[MeltingPenguins]

@ashestoashes018

Well, I disagree a little bit on that front. While it may sometimes come across as disingenuous, it can be a lot better received. I’ve seen some people, in the past, come under attack for just putting the negatives in their comment, regardless of whether they’d been singing the author’s praises before.

That’s the two-edged sword: Do it like this, come under attack for mocking the author with false positives. don’t do it…

[AChubbyBlackCat]

I think the sandwich or oreo technique (wow I’m getting hungry) is a good template for how you should formulate your feedback if you’re not used to giving feedback. For people who are experienced at giving constructive feedback, this technique may not be necessary, so really… to each their own!

[expectedoperator]

@ashestoashes018

While it may sometimes come across as disingenuous, it can be a lot better received.

Yeah, not to mention that all the other ways have their own drawbacks as well.

Having positive, then negative makes the post end on a down note and can be equally as disingenuous.
Having negative, then positive can seem patronizing.
Having positive sandwiched between negatives… that’s just a tsundere.

At least with a “I hope to see more in the future” at the end the author knows you’re somewhat invested – and that bit of cheering on can make all the difference.

[MeltingPenguins]

The good, the bad, the WTF where you thinking?!

How about that?

im joking