Critiquing vs Criticizing

How about SINCERITY i mean my job as tester should be helping the author in development a nice products. Not be his her their psychologist. If I have to Lie to make him her they feel better, what useful the feedback will be?

Then the game launches and GAME IS DESTROYED by ratings. Terrible sales etc… Situation maybe could have been solved if ONE person had the balls to replying with rigour and sincerity. And say Why REALLY thinking about the game. Not trying to look nice and supportive while hidden the useful information under a carpet. If I lie about what you like or not to be politically correct if I don’t say why I don’t like and what I wouldprefer instead. I am not being a tester. I am being a politician giving a chat.

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I think the thing is, though, that if critique is expressed in a way that’s over the top, it becomes a lot easier for the author to either disregard it as irrelevant, or to have it stick enough that it might put them off changing anything just out of spite.

There’s a whole subset of internet out there that blasts anything they don’t like as being useless and worth nothing, and it’s easy to lump things together by tone, if not content.

Getting the point across clearly helps everyone involved.

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@malinryden ninja’ed me.

I agree that honesty is important, and that we do no favors to someone if we ignore significant flaws in a story. This is not the mutual admiration society. The story is going to get reviewed sooner or later, whether it be here or in the marketplace. At least reviews here can lead to a stronger product; whereas once it hits the marketplace, it’s too late.

But also yes, a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down. Your feedback cannot be 100% negative or it will be entirely disregarded as you being a “hater” or just not understanding the story. You must appear reasonable and well-informed if you want your input to have a chance of being considered.

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I went through a lot of the feedback i gave and found that I’m personally better if I can ask first why something is there.
That’s why i like talking to authors (1on1 or in general).

Once i know their angle its easier to word critique

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As tester my obligations ended when I gave my honest and sincere opinion with both good and bad and possible solutions.

It is criteria of author what to do with it or what thinking of it. I don’t even care if The author follows it or not or think if I am a rat or not. Because as tester that’s not my job.

My job and my will with i become a rester is give the most accurate and sincere opinion with positive and negative and options to the author In most clear and honest way possible to the author do whatever he she they consider . I can’t ask for more and I could be proud that I give my best trying to help a product be best possible and What author really dream of .

The author opinions of it should not cloud my main goal helping a game reach market in best possible situation to be a successful products. My goal is not be loved by author

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I think authors also need to learn how to take critique with some degree of detachment though, right? If a reader says, “The pacing’s kind of slow in chapter 2”, that isn’t a ‘mean’ observation a d certainly doesn’t mean “Everything you’ve ever written is worthless and you should never be allowed to wield a pen again!”. It means, you know, tweak chapter 2 a bit. Critique is a two-way street.

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100% yes! But it’s easier said than done, no? I can only speak for myself, but inviting others to read my work was already such a big step, and it was hard to hear critique, even though it was good. I think I respond to critique well on my thread, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t still sting ever so slightly

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Agreed, however many authors on here have never posted anything online. It’s a difficult balance, so it’s necessary for all parties to be respectful.

As I mentioned, if you feel personally offended by critique, you need to take a step back for a few hours, then respond. And you do not have to engage the critic. Just acknowledge what they said, especially if you’re still offended, hours later.

As for critics: be respectful and polite and try to remember that posting your writing online is a scary, exciting experience. For new authors, the very first piece of negativity can be enough to never want to write again (source: been there, particularly when I was still a kid).

Maybe we should think of all authors as kids, in that sense? Not in a pandering, condescending way, but in an encouraging way. Only someone heartless will give harsh, unwavering criticism to a child.

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I think the first thing readers should do is give the feedback that the author asks for. So if they specifically ask for help with typos, punctuation and grammar then give all that you can. Or if the author asks for broader more general feedback, like pacing and tone, give that.

I also think it’s important to just give your personal impression, because, at least for me, it will be the most positive part of your comments. If I have a list of a dozen things that I think are “wrong” with a story, chances are I loved that story.

I didn’t like choice X. Scene Y felt rushed, and RO Z was boring. If that’s my whole comment it sounds like I hated the story, but if I have that many criticisms chances are I loved the story. I cared enough about the world, and my role in it that I felt a little upset when something was off. So I think it’s important to express your positive thoughts along with your criticisms.

Assuming you have positive thoughts. If you really think a story is just not working from top to bottom it might be worth it to find a way to gently say that too. It could give the author a chance to start over with a new, or modified idea.

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I use the “nothing nice to say” rule in these cases, personally.

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I don’t mean to single you out Camille! I’m just using your example feedback as another type of example! :relaxed:

This somewhat ties into the two-way street notion, but I think it’s important for both parties to be willing to further talk about the feedback if it’s structured in short sentences or doesn’t explain why the reader felt like this or that.

Usually if I leave a short comment, I probably squeezed it in between my busy schedule and I have plans to leave a later more in-depth comment later on. :slight_smile:

If someone gives a feedback bullet point, then I feel like the most appropriate response an author can have is to ask them to elaborate on what they mean and why. It’s basically a one-on-one collaborative exploration effort at that point since neither individual is a mind reader.

Fostering a dialogue between yourself and your readers is a good way to ease yourself into the world of feedback if you’ve never done it before since the approach is not “uh oh! something’s wrong with my story!” or “oh? They didn’t like it? Well too bad suckers,” and is instead something like “I wonder what they mean when they say X. I should ask them and find out!” :slight_smile:

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I think lying to make the author feel better (which I wasn’t advocating for – I was speaking more of the spoonful of sugar approach @Eric_Moser mentioned) does a disservice to not just the author and their work but to the other testers as well.

More than once I’ve looked at others’ feedback before I’ve given my own, and that’s helped me not waste my time finding typos or errors that have already been found. It’s also helped where I knew something was wrong, but I couldn’t articulate it properly – but someone else did, so I could point the author towards their feedback. Or where because someone was truthful in their critique, I was able to build upon that criticism and give more feedback than I would have normally.

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I don’t think telling the author what you enjoyed about their story is insincere.

If you have to lie about enjoying the game, then that’s a whole other can of worms, and at that point I would suggest asking your friends to look over your critique so that hopefully they can help you find a way to break the news but gently, and maybe wait a couple of hours before you post so that you can better piece together your thoughts.

And yes, you have to tell them you don’t like it in a gentle way. Being told everything you’ve done is terrible is an awful feeling, and if not done properly can completely destroy any motivation the author has to continuing, or perhaps ever writing again.

Does an author have to grow thick skin? Yes, but that requires papercuts over weeks and months and years before an author can handle stronger criticism, if you cut them with a sword straight away, all they’ll do is bleed out.

Is the marketplace an even worse place for reviews than the forum? Absolutely! People give one stars just because they don’t want to pay three dollars at launch! But that doesn’t mean that giving the author brutal honesty will actually help them prepare for the bad reviews. If anything, it’s just proof that they can’t write and should never do it again.

If you word your critique in such a way that the author doesn’t even want to read your critique, then you have failed your job at giving feedback by alienating the author against you.

You have to be able to show that you understand the good as well as the bad, that you can identify to the author what works and what doesn’t. It can’t be 100% negative unless the author asks for it. If you’ve made yourself and your insight valuable to the author, then you have done your job, and they might ask for that brutal honesty from the get go from now on, but to start off with it I think will cause more harm than good.

So yes, you should tell an author the good and the bad. It is helpful to also mention something else nice at the end because it really does help.
No, doing that does not make you insincere, it means you know how to make your critique come across effectively.

Yes, helping an author reach the marketplace is everyone’s goal, but that will never happen if you can’t get the author to trust your opinion, and that means getting to their level about what they can handle critically.

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Rose is right, also not to mention the fact that a reviewer critiquing something after a game is officially released is not the same as a beta tester. When you are beta testing a game, your goal is to work alongside the author to help them improve the final product. And part of working with someone else is being more careful with how you choose your words. If you have a problem with something, of course it’s good to point it out! But, whether you like it or not, ego always comes into play when you are giving feedback on someone’s work. Because how can it not? This is a product of their own hard work and imagination. And you are supposed to be helping to make that work as good as it can possibly be! Of course blunt feedback can be necessary but you’re not a critic, you’re a beta tester. Part of being a beta tester is to effectively give feedback and you can’t do that if you’ve alienated the writer. Choosing your words carefully isn’t being disingenuous, it’s being compassionate for the person who’s showing you the product of their hard work.

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Exactly this.

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These are so important. Thank you.

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Yes, to this. Sadly. It varies I think from person to person, temperament to temperament. Someone close to me, who is actually quite a good writer, is still not writing anything to this day because someone did that exactly that when she shared her work with him.

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This is a gentle reminder to please keep conversations directed at the topic at hand and not at the individuals themselves. Focusing replies on the individuals themselves instead of the topic at hand can lead to friction between members and often causes the thread to derail.

Please also remember that it is often not so much what ones opinion is that causes friction, but how one chooses to express that opinion. Using negatively-charged value words are a good way to start friction, as is generalisation and sniping.

There are a couple of important things to keep in mind, that I fear is being lost here:

1: Being a tester here, is voluntary - it isn’t paid. All authors need to keep this in mind in their interactions with the testers. This is a major fact of reality here and something that I feel is being lost in this discussion

and

2: There are many people from different cultures here, so be careful in how you react to feedback as an author.

Carry On.

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It is not my problem if authors follow my advice or not. Author game author choice author responsability.

It is author choice decided want wants to follow or implement. And want consider important. If the author considers that they only wañt to hear appraisal and opinions that boosts the ego. It is the author decision and is the correct for him her them.

My compromise is any author know that when i say i like something i 100% mean it. Is not a oreo tecnique it is not a nice politeness overture. It literal mean that i like or not like something. That liberation of many boundaries of double meanings and corrections. What I say Is what I think and what author would know. It could decide hate it forget about it . It is author choice and that’s how it should be .
Because market place apple store won’t be nice and won’t sugarcoat anything It is how world works. So maybe hear someone sincere for once could help. Or not It is choice and responsability of author decide

This is important to remember in general, I think. There have been a few people that have rubbed me the wrong way, until I realized that our cultures are incredibly different. We need to try to remember that, in all cases.