Consolidated AI Thread: A Discussion For Everything AI

[Hayden_Winter]

@FatedFlame

You know, you bring something up that id like to highlight, there’s people who think that since they paid for it, they have authority over how to use it, including using their commissioned art as a seed for an ai generator. Which brings me to my next question for you

Even if you put AI art aside, people who think they have absolute authority over commissioned art would be wrong. So far every artist I’ve worked with had TOS that regulated things like non-commercial / commercial use, correct crediting etc. And I’ve also seen artists including “no NFT / no AI” rules in their TOS lately as a response to recent developments. But honestly? I can’t imagine someone commissioning art to feed AI with it. The people who commission art and the people who use AI to the point of actively feeding it seem to come from the exact opposite camps from what I’ve observed. Even if you fed a single commissioned piece of art “to the AI god”, it would be like a drop in the ocean and hardly have a big impact on the output, as far as I can tell and from what I know about the technology behind it. Stealing tons of art on the other hand seems the easier option with a more reliable result, and that’s what’s been happening.

@FatedFlame

Do you think AI generators should be shut down with legislation? If not, whatre some ways you think artists could defend themselves? Contracts? Clear set terms and conditions for the commission?

Honestly, the first question is too big for me. This is such a complex issue. I think it should all be shut down and started from the scratch with “donated” art or other technology and training methods that don’t rely on theft, because like I said, I’m not opposed to the idea itself. But I think Pandora’s Box is open now. Artists should’ve been giving the option to opt-in from the beginning instead of having their work stolen or having to use complicated methods to opt-out (looking at you, deviant art). With regards to terms and conditions, see above. They’re already doing that, but I don’t think the commissioners are the ones to worry about.

[malinryden]

FOR AUTHORS
Ima throw a curveball at yall, lmao

1. Have you heard of AI story generators?

Yes I have. And the name “AI” is very misleading; it’s not artificial intelligence involved or any intelligence at all. It’s just a massive pattern recognition generator.

2. What do you think about this emerging new factor?

It feels like a novelty item, like everyone thinks it’s cool just because it’s “AI” involved. About as interesting as NFT’s or Crypto. Blown up mediocrity. Like self-driving cars it’s fun to see the first steps, but to make that into something functional is so very hard.

3. Do you threatened by this? Or do you feel unworried?

I am unworried. Completely. The only thing it will probably end up being used for is basic ad-copy and company stuff that needs to be descriptive but not creative.

4. Now returning to the AI generated art. Would you use it? How would you use it? I think a number of us already use Artbreeder, and if you didn’t know; Artbreeder is an artificial intelligence (AI ) portrait and landscape image creation tool.

No. I haven’t and wouldn’t. The pictures generated are creepy as hell.

5. Would you commission artists with the intention of having them make a reference image to use for AI generation art?

NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS! And honestly, everyone who does and didn’t state that in the commission is on as much shaky legal ground as if someone commissioned a pic of their OC and then printed it on t-shirts and sold them.

EDIT:

As for artists, I mean look at the shitshow with Clip Studio Paint and how fast they had to backtrack their “AI” tool…

[LiliArch]

Hm. Now I’m wondering how an artist’s personal AI that’s trained to spit out pictures with the said artist’s own style would turn out.

[CavusRex]

@FatedFlame

Thanks for replying! I’ve seen the city map you made for the wip you’re working on, and loved it. Since you appear pro-ai, would or will you be using ai art in your game? I remember you telling me the art was for your eyes only and as a point of reference. Or will your “no art in IF books” stop the implementation of art of all kinds in your game?

I am not planning any art in the game proper other than banners and a map to help players orient themselves around important points of interest. I am making things with AI but that’s because it helps get a lot of quick reference images which help with making descriptions consistent. I might share that art if someone wants to see it but I’m not including character portraits in game itself.

[Kshatriya]

Lots of good points being made here. I’ve tried art generators out of curiosity but haven’t really gotten much use out of them. I only make art as a hobby, so I’m neutral about the advent of AI in the field. But I understand why artists who make it their livelihood do feel threatened.

It’s clear that we need to have more specific boundaries and to respect creators if they don’t want their works to be used for such purposes. I don’t do commissions atm but I wouldn’t be comfortable with the idea either.

Still, I do agree that it can be a useful tool for artists and authors to tackle the more tedious aspects of their work, or to serve as inspiration, prompts, etc. I know some people hate drawing landscapes, so they could use an AI-generated background as a template of sorts and polish it to fit their style.

In a sense, it’s like machine translation and how it can be used as a tool to help translators, not put them out of their jobs. It speeds up your work, but it absolutely still needs the human touch to ensure quality and to fix the janky stuff that’s often a feature of anything machine-generated.

Sure, technology is inevitable in any industry, but imo there will always be value in handmade goods and items. Think, like, artisanal versus factory-produced. Some people prefer to buy something that someone put hours of their thought and labour into. All the same, that’s not an option everyone can afford, so I can kind of see why AI generation is as popular as it is now.

In any case, people using AI-generated art should state somewhere that AI was involved, and it should be for private/personal use or created with explicit permission from the original artists (public domain might be an option?). I guess there is the argument that AI art could be considered transformative/fair use, but I’m not sure how that would fly in terms of IP law.

EDIT (this got long so hiding this part)

@E_RedMark

They get competitions to go against, gazillions of talented peoples that run ahead of you, they get picky customers (Just look on Google ‘Choosing Beggars’), and the industry doesn’t help. For every 1 succesful artist, you get what…100? 1000? more? Of artist doing full time job and their real passion is just a…hobby.

And Clients from Hell * shudders *. It’s a cutthroat industry for sure, and partly why some artists are so defensive about this issue.

@E_RedMark

But imagine, when someone (In this case they call themself Pandora Box) start stealing Mods and selling them off as their owns.

Who protect the Modders? Nobody. It’s online, and as long as it is online, nobody can do anything. Most modders can’t afford to chase the culprit and hire a lawyer and take them to court (IF they even live in the same country).

Yeah, I understand why you’re opposed to it. It’s a complicated issue and it’s not going away any time soon. As for the mods, it’s definitely plagiarism and is unethical. But as LiliArch mentioned, there’s probably not much you can do legally, save for maybe asking a site moderator to take it down (iirc NexusMods has rules against that).

It’s always a risk when it comes to the Internet, isn’t it? Once you upload something online, it’s not truly yours anymore. You can only hope that people will respect your rights and boundaries.

[E_RedMark]

Art is already misunderstood craft, I still remember my mother telling me how useless it was if it doesn’t bring food on the table. (She said that about pretty much everything, really…). Like writing, the artist gotta buckle up and hope for some luck to come forth. They get competitions to go against, gazillions of talented peoples that run ahead of you, they get picky customers (Just look on Google ‘Choosing Beggars’), and the industry doesn’t help. For every 1 succesful artist, you get what…100? 1000? more? Of artist doing full time job and their real passion is just a…hobby.

It’s depressing.

@Kshatriya

Sure, technology is inevitable in any industry, but imo there will always be value in handmade goods and items. Think, like, artisanal versus factory-produced. Some people prefer to buy something that someone put hours of their thought and labour into. All the same, that’s not an option everyone can afford, so I can kind of see why AI generation is as popular as it is now.

I don’t know how true is that.

Ask yourself this: In the area where you live. How many Stores closed down, when people started buying in bulk online?

I stand by my No, because someone mentioned ‘Pandora Box’, which remind me of the modding scene. For exemples, Mods for games are made by peoples who do it for free, and out of passion for a game.

We know the benefit of mods, correct? They add longevity to games (Look at Baldur’s Gate Modding community! Still alive and kicking).

But imagine, when someone (In this case they call themself Pandora Box) start stealing Mods and selling them off as their owns.

Who protect the Modders? Nobody. It’s online, and as long as it is online, nobody can do anything. Most modders can’t afford to chase the culprit and hire a lawyer and take them to court (IF they even live in the same country).

That’s a real thing…

[LiliArch]

@Kshatriya

it should be for private/personal use or created with explicit permissionf from the original artists (public domain might be an option?)

This. I think the biggest problem here is who owns what. Artists’ work shouldn’t be used without permission. But also, who owns what the AI spits out isn’t that clear either, especially on those online systems. Not every generator allows commercial use of the result!

I think the field is really interesting (and useful), but of course I’m a computer science major, so take that as you will.

@E_RedMark

Who protect the Modders? Nobody. It’s online, and as long as it is online, nobody can do anything. Most modders can’t afford to chase the culprit and hire a lawyer and take them to court (IF they even live in the same country).

Not to mention that modding isn’t exactly legal to begin with in every case, so the modders in question might not even have much legal ground to stand on.

[squarelyblue]

Also the mess that Deviant Art found themselves in with how they were implementing their AI Art Tool

Experience wise, most of my art friends are quite anti crypto + AI for a lot of reasons (namely legal protection, online security, and the like). While I’m not holding my breath for the internet at large to stop using image generators like Artbreeder — nor for the web to stop having ‘crawlers’ to feed into AI generators — personally I would never agree to commissioning an artist who had the intentions of using it purposefully for AI. As Malin’s mentioned, it feels very…wrong (to say the least) to pay someone to draw your OC, only for them to turn around and use it for other things that you didn’t agree to.

Am not sure if the thread at large has gone into it but as it stands most generators don’t credit nor ask for permission if they can use artworks for whatever purpose. And lately the theft has gotten even more brazen.

So on principle, I’d just commission an artist that I trust and stick with that. I’d very much like to support artists in ways that I can

[LiliArch]

Wait, I thought the question was about paying an artist for a picture and then the customer using it somewhere, not the artist using it elsewhere (except maybe their portfolio, with permission)… does that really happen?

(I mean, in my experience people stealing others’ art is way more common than artists stealing others’ character designs. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, I’m just surprised.)

[squarelyblue]

@LiliArch, we’re jumping off from the original question posted

But yeah, most digital artists I know would not upload commissioned works into a generator without at least informing the client, though even then, I feel like it would be bad business all around to have that as part of a contract. It’s different when a third party does that — in which case you can try to argue theft, but not exactly sure what legal protections there are if you don’t want your artwork to be uploaded elsewhere (I mean chasing after regular theft is hard enough) — but for you, the artist, purposefully stating that you’ll be feeding it into an AI generator would likely be a deterrent.

Most people are willing to pay a premium for exclusivity/having their OC drawn (which is ‘one of a kind’) so saying you’ll be using it for a machine that can down the line replicate your art style and artworks would be putting a large dent in that appeal.

I don’t think it happens (or if it does, it’s likely a rare case).

[S8n]

As an aspiring artist this does worry me (as many artist are already treated poorly to begin) with and I agree with a point on this a while back I saw about the whole thing being innovative just to be innovative. Like this whole AI art thing is completely unnecessary and dumb. The only thing AI “art” should be used for is this:

[11171]

@nolosepos_pospos

Not only that, but it’s a huge disrespect for the work, dedication and effort put into doing those pieces.

Like, I’m sorry you are in that situation, but that’s no excuse to justify such acts.

People need to start being mindful of artists, by valuing the effort they go trough, and the dedication they have for their work.

Artists have no right instilling guilt on poor people for not being able to afford their work and searching for cheaper alternatives. I’m an artist myself (nsfw one) and ofc I would be against ai generated art if it started to dominate the marked over because that would mean that I would lose my job and money, but I would NEVER blame poor people over the fact that they choose something cheaper over me. Besides the ai nowadays and (I suspect forever) is in no shape to compete with actual artist, firstly because even with the best tools you can never get a perfect result, and second because the art that comes out of it is repetitive and passable at best.

[S8n]

Bruh some guy literally won first place for an AI generated piece over everyone else who literally put in work for their own pieces if that’s all it takes these days then wallahi I’m finished

[ThousandLostSouls]

@FatedFlame

Have you heard of AI story generators?

Did not know about it honestly.

@FatedFlame

What do you think about this emerging new factor?

I think it is pretty cool that AI can piece together words that don’t look like me middle-clicking the auto type function on my phone as a teenager being bored out of my mind. I do think that it can encourage laziness which is a yikes from me.

@FatedFlame

Do you threatened by this? Or do you feel unworried?

I am pretty unworried about it. I do maybe think it can promote a sense of laziness among authors by letting them write out a scenario and you just copy and paste it, maybe edit it to match your writing style but in that same sense, I can see it being helpful.

Though… I don’t really know if it will replace authors. I think I am pretty safe in that regard of claiming that human ingenuity will probably be that factor the AI won’t be able to replicate… until Human ingenuity develops it to do exactly that.

There is just a lot to take into consideration at that point. Plot, sub-plots, continuity. So I am pretty far from worried.

@FatedFlame

Now returning to the AI generated art. Would you use it? How would you use it? I think a number of us already use Artbreeder, and if you didn’t know; Artbreeder is an artificial intelligence (AI ) portrait and landscape image creation tool.

Yeah. I have used for creature/monster/alien designs to give myself some visual clues without feeling like I am directly poaching from an artist’s creative mind. If I learn to properly use it I might use it eventually for characters.

@FatedFlame

Would you commission artists with the intention of having them make a reference image to use for AI generation art?

Nope.

My stance for most of it is pretty neutral where you use it if you want to use it. I suppose for a lot of authors the AI art generator is quite helpful for that visual aid without needing to empty the wallet or plagiarise art. On the other hand, I don’t find it to be a permanent solution as it just lacks Human Ingenuity for me.

[ThousandLostSouls]

That would be pretty awesome

[TheNobleOne]

Frankly, I don’t see it as an issue. But then again, I’m not an artist.
It’s new, so it’s going to arise interest. There’s a small buzz around it.

But it’s not a world wide thing yet. Have you ever tested these apps or programs that generate AI created art ? They’re fun, but quickly stop to be because none are for free and there aren’t that many things you can generate yet.

To all the pen pushers out there, you can rest easy. I don’t think your livelihood is in jeopardy yet. It’s a cool new technology, but barely more as of now. It’s fun, but not essential nor reliable. I’d love it be more efficient but it just isn’t.

As long as people have their imagination they’re clear. As for copyrights and blabla what-not image usage, there are laws for that. Again : a potential annoyance, not a threat.

Don’t make it a bigger problem than it is, be vigilant, deal with it as it arises.

[Jacic]

Art generators thoughts:

• If you’re uploading public domain art, it’s fair game. If you’re uploading CC art it is ok as long as the generator will uphold those restrictions (ie non-commercial, citation needed, must be transformed etc.)

• If you’re uploading art you’ve paid for via a commission, it depends if the author stipulated any usage conditions and the conditions of the art generator. (For example if your commission was zoned for non-commercial display, and the art generator is non-commercial use only (and not being paid for to use or run (even add support is getting iffy here)), then it’s a grey area but probably still fair use.) If you’ve stipulated personal use only and it’s uploaded to a generator for anyone to use, then that’s obviously broken the terms of the agreement. My personal thought is that if you’ve made a commission specifically for someone (barring specific conditions as some artists will charge more or less depending on how the image is to be used especially in commercial instances) it’s kind of nice to know that your work is being appreciated instead of being forgotten in many cases.

• If it’s not yours to use, or against the terms of the commission you agreed to, then that’s against the law and subject to a take down (not to mention being very uncool towards the artist.)

As an aside, I do feel like art generators should reference the work they’ve mashed up to create a picture. I don’t use them. Occasionally I have a play on one to see what they’re doing from time to time as a funsies thing and to see where they’re at. When I’ve done that though, I’ve sometimes seen part of the image is something I would love to know where it came from but can’t know because there’s no reference. If references were given, it’d potentially be good exposure for artists/photographers willing to display their work there (similar to other free image sites where people give out some of their work to be used however they like and may or may not have a commercial section as well.)

*They are glitchy. In theory can work and have the potential to create interesting things, but frequently cause fails. (Extra or deformed limbs with extra joints, wings out of proportion or in wrong places, images not merged right etc.) I have heard people claim they’re the future although I’m still a bit skeptical as for now at least, most seem to need to draw on existing images to make the computer versions so “artists” aren’t dead as a profession yet.

AI story generators
Yeah have heard of them, my facebook page keeps getting spammed with advertisements for “how they can write a story for you without any effort!” (Great job FB metrcs! I guess it goes “hey, you’re a member of some writing groups, so I’m sure you’ll be interested in having a computer take that hobby off your hands for you instead to free up your spare time!” Yeah AI still isn’t perfect ) I haven’t checked them out honestly, but in theory you could get an AI to write a story although it’d probably need some human tweaking.

Although I’m sure that computers can write “serviceable” work, there is something to be said for creativity that is much harder to replicate in a machine. Even the artwork in my understanding is not build from scratch as a general rule but using existing work to heavily draw upon so it has limitations. I can see it being potentially popular for people who want cheaply produced individualised fan fiction in particular, as hiring an author can be expensive enough for many to be willing to put up with some glitchiness or non-sensical areas in the storyline. So yep, applications for entertainment rather than commercial purposes are definitely there.

Again with this, not much you can do about appropriately zoned CC material being uploaded there or commissioned work that does not stipulate it could not be used in this way. It kind of makes it fair game and is going to be up to the author whether or not they’re ok with it being used that way or not. I’d be peeved if people were taking work they don’t have the rights to and using them to make these programs.

[Clary_Fray]

There’s always something about AI art which disturbs me, and it feels a lot like uncanny valley. No matter how perfect it grows over the years I still miss the manmade art that you could tell how well-honed, long-grown skills combined with passion gives out the final sight. In digital art the lines look well-trained to humanly messy (for novice artists) while in sketched or painted art sometimes you could tell the flow of the paint (if the artist chooses to incorporate that as part of their piece) or crosshatches.

[Starwish_Armedwithwi]

As a reader working in the AI field

1: Yeah, it really blew up this year and I’m very happy to see people using them, now that it gathered momentum I hope it will have a bright future, commercially or just hobbyist

2: not everyday but a lot, just to see how the AI improves and keeping me updated on community news, try to anyways.

3: definitely, I think it will have a cooldown period and then just becomes an everyday thing, the demand is there

4: I would love it, one of my favorite YouTube singer used AI art as cover and it’s definitely a freak out moment, super happy to see AI making a real impact in the public consciousness than getting memed on

5: more beneficial, it just gives more people the ability to acquire art, and a quick art is great for me to visualize things, now writer can generate art at free to low cost so the barrier is lower

[jay-walker]

@Jacic

If it’s not yours to use, or against the terms of the commission you agreed to, then that’s against the law and subject to a take down (not to mention being very uncool towards the artist.)

@TheNobleOne

As long as people have their imagination they’re clear. As for copyrights and blabla what-not image usage, there are laws for that. Again : a potential annoyance, not a threat.

It would be awesome to live in a world where people wouldn’t be able to just… get away with stealing art a world where the iron hand of the law just works automatically, pushing a button to deal justice.
But art theft was always near impossible to persecute.
These generators were built on stolen content in a way the artist won’t know they’ve been robbed unless they go out of their way to find out. So will these shenanigans eventually result in a class-action lawsuit? Very possible, especially if private photos keep appearing in databases.