CoG/HG business model

[Dvalor53]

@Havenstone

This links into what @Dvalor53 has been writing above about the ecosystem of CoG/HG,

@Havenstone

One more thought about the relative merits of seeing one side, another, or both as the “core business” of the CoG/HG ecosystem.

The fact that you used “ecosystem” more than once makes me feel validated.

@hustlertwo

Give the no advance option (or maybe a much lower advance, like $2.5k-$5k) with higher royalties for CoG, and raise the HG royalties to match.

I had a small conversation with someone not involved in this community over these royalty talks and I liked their idea: HG having a threshold to increase the royalty value once the game has made a set financial value. Like once it has made $30k (as a random numerical example) it has earned enough to no longer be a risk and has already paid for plenty of overhead, then increase royalty to like 50% or something.

I think something like that sounds financially viable without messing up the CoG/HG ecosystem. Thoughts?

[MultipleChoice]

We have a lot of practical-minded authors here, and trust me, I absolutely understand that 25% of 20,000 (5000) is a heck of a lot more than 100% of 200. The audience is the value of going with Hosted Games. That is what their royalty cut represents. But that’s also why Steam gets the cut they do, and the app markets as well.

We have a lot of gracious and respectful authors here, some perhaps overly agreeable, but all of us are happy to be making money off our creations, even years after their release. To those who are especially humble, I’d like to remind you that you’ve got no reason to be: you wrote 100% of your full-length-novel-and-then-some. Writing a novel is a life achievement that the vast majority of the population will never accomplish–and yours is 2/3/4/500k words long, with tons of variables and choices at every page? There’s no other way to say it: that’s impressive.

–

Just an aside for anyone not familiar with the programming aspect: Choicescript isn’t a game engine like Unity or the Unreal Engine. It isn’t a creation framework. Instead, the author converts their text into script for the licensed Choicescript interpreter to make use of. Obviously, there’s a lot more going on than just generating html radio buttons when a choice shows up, but that’s just something I wanted to clarify.

–

The “What about CoG” argument of keeping royalties low for authors who use the Hosted Games platform to host their games is neither rooted in reality for how hosting platforms operate, nor is rooted in any sort of fairness to HG authors–the people who are making the product being sold here. From what Dan has mentioned in regards to advances for CoG authors, and the very real financial risks CoG takes in their releases, I’m not entirely sure if the more traditional publishing contract model (where advances even exist) makes a lot of sense anymore for choicegames. Traditional novels work that way, apps and games don’t.

Something that I want to mention because I don’t think it’s been touched upon yet: the vast majority of readers who play these games aren’t aware of the differences between a Choice of Game title and a Hosted Games one. Many couldn’t tell you what title belonged to which; to the customer, they are effectively interchangeable. Just an example: there’s a question right now asking about similar titles to Samurai of Hyuga on r/choiceofgames. Titles released from these two companies are functionally and visually identical. That’s important because Wayhaven advertises all choicegames just as Pon Para advertises all choicegames.

If a $0 advance and a 30-70 revenue cut between HG and the author, without any sort of support, and with an effective publishing cost to HG of ~$1000, is more enticing to established authors, then I think that should actively be encouraged. This reduces publisher risk (to the point of effectively zero) while authors get a royalty % that more closely represents the work and efforts they’ve put in.

I don’t think any of us knew it back then, but the introduction of the omnibus apps really served to highlight the sort of transformation I think HG/CoG is ultimately destined for: an app store. A platform for choicegames. I won’t pretend to know what sort of restructuring that involves, or how many years it’ll take for the transformation to happen, but I do think that’s a better future to look forward to whether you make these games or you play them.

[hustlertwo]

Devon, why do you have to keep writing 9/10 of an awesome post I can easily agree with (and it is indeed an important point to drive home that most people do not understand that CoG and HG are actually different entities at all) and then loop back to this 'they’re just an appstore, do a 70% cut to authors" position. We’re trying to establish something sustainable and fair for both sides, not make them have to fire employees to bend to our whims. More importantly, it’s not realistic.

I care about this place. I keep reiterating it because it is true. I volunteer my time to moderate the subreddits, and while overall I enjoy it, it’s not always the easiest task. I talk HG up to any wannabe writer I encounter as a great opportunity to reach a wide audience while still maintaining almost total creative control. In the various controversies that have popped up like festering boils on this forum over the years, I weighed in on the side of CoG rather than against it far more often than not. So if I am starting to get radicalized by the position of a company executive that can be boiled down to “dang, HG royalties should be higher, that sucks, shame nothing can be done because CoG is the priority here”, how much more of a negative reaction do you think you’re going to get from authors whose loyalty to the company is a lot more frayed and tenuous? The ones bellyaching in this thread are not the worrisome ones. It is those who will say nothing at all and just take their time and effort elsewhere that are the scarier prospect. My cautious hope, looking at the anemic 2024 HG slate, is that this hasn’t already started happening.

@jasonstevanhill @dfabulich In an effort to prevent this public mudslinging from continuing, I’d like to know straight out what can be done to provide an increased royalty split for authors.

[MultipleChoice]

Lol, you’ve got me there, @hustlertwo! A 30-70 cut isn’t reasonable. I actually wouldn’t expect that because, while I think Hosted Games operates as a choicegame platform first and foremost, the fact that a licensed interpreter is being used as well as the support email infrastructure and the mailer for promotions, that’s more than you’d ever from Google or Apple. Something like a 50-50 cut down the middle is actually more fair and sensible. I’m sorry if my ambitious bit of negotiating undermined my argument! It’s a bad habit!

I 100% agree with your frustration about the justification for what Dan has admitted are overly low Hosted Games royalties.

[HarrisPS]

@hustlertwo

In an effort to prevent this public mudslinging from continuing

Thankfully it doesn’t seem too much mud is being slung at the moment - but as I mentioned upthread, I do think emailing HG staff directly about contract negotiation and having a serious discussion about numbers is going to be a more productive conversation. Maybe those discussions are going on behind the scenes - in which case, great! But it seems that there are hopes/expectations for staff to share sensitive information, or to make major business plans or decisions in an informal public thread which is less likely to be fruitful (and, I guess, could lead to more mudslinging than not). I understand the goal of negotiating a higher royalty rate for HG authors but I’m not sure how far that will be achieved by this thread.

If I’m wrong about people’s aims in posting about this, I apologise - and to be clear, if authors are able to get more money that’s a good thing. I am just trying to think practically about what’s being raised.

[Samuel_H_Young]

People may not like the way I say shit but I’m glad I got this discussion going. It has needed to happen for years. Royalties should go up for Hosted Games, logically and morally. Hosted Games authors are paying for Choice of Games authors and then given the middle finger and told “what else are you going to do?”

[hustlertwo]

While email seems too cluttered given how many people are involved in the conversation, I can concur that it could be taken to a less open forum. I’ll post a thread in the Published Authors section to continue the discussion.

[Samuel_H_Young]

wow, the news of a CoG pay raise is an extra spit in the face since Hosted Games authors are paying for it but still get the same old deal

[AletheiaKnights]

I was under the impression the companies’ finances are separate?

[Samuel_H_Young]

@dfabulich

so, simultaneously, royalty rates are irrelevent for CoG authors unless they get an advance…but you can’t raise HG royalties because it would entice CoG authors even though we don’t get an advance…?

[Samuel_H_Young]

why?

[cup_half_empty]

@malinryden

A rising tide lifts ALL ships

Entirely unrelated, but I love this quote.

[AletheiaKnights]

Because they’ve said so. (If you’re asking why they’re separate, that’s not for me to say.)

[Samuel_H_Young]

Hosted Games’ funds seem to be used on funding Choice of Games, since Hosted Games don’t get any support beyond that $1k publishing investment. So where else is the money going? To CoG, which is not an entirely separate company, but the parent of HG.

[AletheiaKnights]

So you think they’re outright lying about the companies having separate finances?

[Samuel_H_Young]

I’m not saying they’re lying, I’m saying I’ve never seen them say that and it also makes no sense. I’d have to hear from them. Like you realize a Hosted Games bank account can send money to a CoG bank account right?

[dfabulich]

They’re separate LLCs, with separate bank accounts, and different partners (“LLC members”).

There’s significant overlap in membership, and there are some costs shared by CoG and HG, sometimes by having one company pay the other company for specific services.

[Samuel_H_Young]

look, I think just about EVERYTHING about CoG and Hosted Games is great EXCEPT the royalty rate. I’ve written six Hosted Games and plan on writing more than that, which is why I think royalties should reflect my efforts and other authors’ efforts

[Samuel_H_Young]

@Samuel_H_Young

I want to say to everyone, I lost my temper, shot from the hip, and came off way too aggressive and spiteful in these conversations. That clouded my message which was ultimately supposed to be that we authors should have royalty raises to reflect our efforts.

I’m going to try to approach things in a more mature, productive manner going forward, but for now I’ll bow out to give others time to voice their thoughts now that this issue is being talked about by the community and addressed by the company

This apology is from a different post but applies just the same.

[Havenstone]

Thanks for taking the initiative to make the conversation that bit more productive, Sam. It’s never easy to find and keep the right tone when we’re talking about grievances that affect us personally. I don’t even have that excuse for my own lapse into snideness upthread.

One negative lesson CoG might conceivably take away from a fracas like this is to become less transparent – “we need to never again share bestseller lists or company updates or other stuff that will eventually be wielded the fuck against us.” [Edit: or alternately, “we need to hire another employee whose job is mostly PR so we don’t have to keep personally dealing with this deeply unpleasant shit whenever we try to explain ourselves in public,” which would be slightly worse from the perspective of anyone who’s hoping for lower overheads = more royalties]

I’m hoping that’s not where this takes us, and think that keeping the tone non-hostile will help with that.