Choice of Rebels: Stormwright (XoR2 WIP)

[maroder123]

@Havenstone

Yeah, that’s always been the challenge, because int 2 is such a step up. I’ll give it some thought.

i think one way to do it is make it auxiliary stat that whille itself dose not do anything big. it instead enchances effectivens of other stats. few checks like (cha => X and Int > 0) or (com => X and Int > 0).
sometimes cha finds better arguments with int 1. we already have examples for that or com finds even better way to solve some problem.

one thing i would personaly like to see is com 2 cha 2 being more of inspiritional battelfield leader that can motivate and comand people. Com 3 should undoutebly be better battelfield commander but that only really counts when you are commanding people who are ready to follow all of your orders to a letter. even best lade plan amounts to nothing if people are not willing to follow you. and i think com 2 cha 2 having its own small niche here could be interesting its a character that understands military matters on good enough level and is also charismatic enough to convince people to follow him and command them in battle.

[Razzuell]

An achivment “Poor Duck” or “Never break a promise” for keeping alless stonehewer alive through all 5 games

[billyryder]

@Havenstone

Did I say something that sounded like I was promising another Theurge?

@Nm6k might’ve been talking about when the handful of Theurges cross over and try to stop Dilek’s shipment of rifles to Sojourn, and if that’s still happening? I remember that being mentioned as a scene in the past

@Kevrj

save elder Brasque and his daughters by bringing them to the Rim

If this ends up possible in a helot run, that means you could teach Cynneve Theurgy in the same route and end up sending another mage to your rebellion. Might have to switch over to that in my main run if it makes it in, I’m sure most of the rebels would appreciate Earith walking in with her adult Theurge helot sister rather than her terrified teenage noble boyfriend

[Nm6k]

@billyryder

might’ve been talking about when the handful of Theurges cross over and try to stop Dilek’s shipment of rifles to Sojourn, and if that’s still happening?

Yes that’s what I was asking since people in the discord were unsure about it when I asked

[maximo_caseres]

@Havenstone

There’s room for drama there – poor Zvad passed over again?! – but if I go for every option for drama, I’ll never finish.

You should add a drama option where our Bandlead gets overridden by some other lieutenant if they have an at least moderately higher leadership than our bandlead, this would surely be an interesting idea and I’m not proposing it just to justify my paranoia and distrust of Breden, who might be able to reach 20+ leadership in certain runs of mine…

Also, don’t listen to the voices that tell you not to add every possible option, they’re just trying to dull your spark, don’t you want to let loose, to write the most comprehensive and interactive piece of fiction the world’s ever seen? Come on Havie, just another half a million words~

@Havenstone

Your choice of how democratically the band will be led, otoh, will definitely be a lingering feature – with the possibility of tension with the natural leadership style of the people you left in charge.

1. What does otoh mean?

2. Well this could turn into an issue, I almost always play as Sole Band Leader, but I’m unsure if my usual Bandleads would like it so much…

   Zvad going from Deputy to Sole Leader should hopefully not be much issue, I expect he should be able to handle it.

   Simon is nice to a fault and might not be so confident in taking absolute control of the band, but, with enough leadership, and, maybe if I tell him that I consider the others to be a pack of uncivilized brigands, he’ll have enough confidence to assert his absolute authority.

   Elery is the biggest issue, I’m really unsure she’ll follow my desire to not dilute the leadership of the Whendward band, I can only hope this won’t cause too much issue.

Out of curiosity, do you have a list or some idea of what our Bandleads preferred leadership style would be?

@Havenstone

When it comes to outright combat, there will definitely be some stuff in the Rim management sections that will only be open to COMmies

My excitement for rim management has grown exponentially.

@Havenstone

It would of course have to be actually unavoidable for all high-power rebellions, not nigh-unavoidable, to fix the hyper-optimized save issue you mention… keep it at “nigh” and you’re just taking the optimization problem to a whole new level.

Good to see you’re aware of the things we’re willing to do Havie, I’ve already thread the fucking needle that is Bleys + Simon recruitment with Theurge Sword Rout, if you leave the slightest possibility that we can have a highly powerful rebellion without suffering a scouring (or similar) I will find it, even if it takes micromanaging every little detail for 3 entire books, I will figure it out.

@Havenstone

There are going to be massive Hegemonic crackdowns starting in Book 3, which should force the MC into costly choices if they’re going to save individuals they care about. Some of those crackdowns will involve cataclysmic uses of Theurgy – though not on the scale of “the whole Westriding.” There should be enough suffering and sacrifice to feel like we’re going through a crucible.

Perfect, this is what I always cared about, not balance, not reducing named rebels, nothing of that matters. I just want to see MC suffer and overcome, face the worst the tagmatarch is willing to throw and still bring them down, I’ll let hundreds of thousands more die if I can prevail in the end.

@Havenstone

…but not getting past him peacefully is way cooler? Both with him, and then in Mesniel?

I like to say that 3 COM MC got 3 important upgrades in its training in Soujourn.

A small increase to its personal combat skills.

A moderately large increase to its tactical and strategic prowess.

And a massive increase to its ego.

“{Name} {Lname}, Rim Square.”

@Havenstone

I’ve got a policy of not number-statting characters, but she would have had extraordinarily high COM – great tactical and operational leadership.

Damnit. Let me ask something slightly different then. Could we hope to reach, or even, surpass, Shayard’s bold warrior queen? I have some MCs that could delude themselves into being the second coming of Samena.

@Havenstone

Among certain groups – like, say, the Westriding yeomanry, or the Grand Shayard urban poor – yes.

Said deluded MC will make good use of his nearly 500 notoriety then, I’m stealing the yeomanry from even the Cabelites to MSGA. Make Shayard Great Again.

[Adam_Cay]

@maximo_caseres

1. What does otoh mean?

on the other hand

[Havenstone]

@Azthyme

We can pivot into the as-yet unwritten Battle of Irduin, which reminds me a lot of the Fourth Harrowing.

But could go quite differently, depending on ird_unity…

@Azthyme

[Rampion] is like a secret boss battle that cuts the story short, and the reward is a preview for some future intrigue.

Yes, there’ll be a handful of ways to cut the story short. I don’t think many of them are likely to be what people stumble across on their first readthrough; ideally most readers wll get a more mainstream Irduin run before finding some of the weird little corners.

@Nm6k

Yes that’s what I was asking since people in the discord were unsure about it when I asked

Ah, revised Chapter Two. Sorry, I’d totally misread that as an Irduin reference. (Thanks, @billyryder.) Yes, still planning to write a fight at the end of Chapter Two.

@maximo_caseres

Out of curiosity, do you have a list or some idea of what our Bandleads preferred leadership style would be?

Not a comprehensive list yet.

@maximo_caseres

Could we hope to reach, or even, surpass, Shayard’s bold warrior queen? I have some MCs that could delude themselves into being the second coming of Samena.

A max-COM character will be the kind of general that generates heated historical debates over who was better, them or Samena. Would Samena have actually conquered the whole world if she’d been fighting with modern Theurgic tech? Would MC have actually conquered the whole world if they were born into a growing kingdom rather than a collapsing empire? That kind of thing.

Right, now fully caught up.

[Kevrj]

@billyryder

If this ends up possible in a helot run, that means you could teach Cynneve Theurgy in the same route and end up sending another mage to your rebellion.

Oh wow, I hadn’t even thought about that! I was just thinking about saving poor Elder Brasque. The possibility of Cynneve becoming a Theurge and joining the rebellion is, of course, a completely unforeseen and totally unrelated benefit that I definitely did not have in mind when I asked the question.

Just trying to save innocent people, you know. Very wholesome. Very altruistic.

[Zamfir]

Thank you for the very comprehensive write-up @Havenstone! It’s always a joy reading through these and seeing your responses to people’s feedback and theories.

@Havenstone

I’d thought the fact that I’ve rolled stealth into COM would have made some difference here.

It must certainly did! Don’t get me wrong, while my discussion posts may seem to indicate otherwise, as a proud representative of the COMmies (love that nickname) I’m actually quite satisfied with how COM is playing out in Game 2, and I’m certain that with all the tidbits we’ve provided you, things will get even better in GS and beyond! Flavor wise, COM is really cool, and unseating arrogant chiefs from their camels has never been better!

But, to exemplify my mechanical frustration with COM a bit more, just for the sake of discussion:

Game 2 so far has been more or less a social simulator. Both in the Xaos lands, and in Irduin, we’re relying on others to help us with our goals. So, it makes sense for CHA and INT to do most of the heavy lifting. Generally, a combination of INT and CHA will net you positive results in social encounters. An overwhelming “plus” for CHA and INT!

COM is weak in social encounters. So that’s a minus from the get-go. But, it unlocks new skills, like stealthing so that’s a nice plus! However, a minus and a plus…don’t result in much. So COM feels pretty middling, sometimes frustrating in its failures, sometimes nice due to new unlocks, but overall just…meh. While CHA and INT builds succeed in the social scenarios and don’t have to busy themselves with much else (instead of spying on people to learn their secrets, they just convince them to share or deduce them).

@Havenstone

Maybe those aren’t as narratively clear.

It’s actually fairly clear actually when COM comes into play, at least for me! It’s the results that are less so. There’s not much telling me “because of your high COM stat, you learned that information AND your suspicion meter didn’t go up at all!”. I think that kind of subtle indicator would do wonders to ease the COM frustration.

@Havenstone

When it comes to outright combat, there will definitely be some stuff in the Rim management sections that will only be open to COMmies.

I think that’s the perfect approach! Irduin is after a social space, so it makes sense that swinging our fists around won’t do much. What you said there is in my opinion the best balancing approach! You can keep COMmies suffering in the village, but give them unique options outside of it!

@Havenstone

Ditto for the order-suspicion balance.

Thank you for looking into both this and maybe further balancing 1s! Altough, my observations about order and suspicion could just be a result of my specific playstyle. I’m not a code-diver, so correct me if I’m wrong, but I usually pick a noble focus, and I assume the options there raise order rather than lowering it, so I may have had an easy time keeping order up because I chose the high order route. Same for suspicion, COM supposedly helps with suspicion (altough it’s a bit unclear for me, without code-diving) so COM builds could just have an easy time keeping suspicion low.

@Havenstone

but not getting past him peacefully is way cooler? Both with him, and then in Mesniel?

Haha, it is kind of cooler, sure! But failing his interrogation is still communicated as a failure by the narrative, especially by Cerlota. You getting to do all the cool Mesniel escape stuff is a consequence of you not being wise or charming enough. Which to me, while playing, still felt like I failed.

Let me examplify why it felt a bit frustrating with a bit of internal monologue that I could’ve had while playing trough his interrogation for the first time.

“Choice 1: This fellow is asking me about my profession. He’s probably testing me. Well, my highest stat is COM so I’ll say I was a bodyguard” - Success

“Choice 2: Okay, so now he’s asking what weapons I was guarding my charge with. Makes sense. Well, my COM is pretty high so I’ll just flex my muscles a bit and tell him I was using my bare fists. That’s kinda funny too lol.” - Success

“Choice 3: Okay, he bought that but now he’s asking about the aristarch? Crap…I’m not smart enough for that. But I did see some of the people on the Discord mentioning this. And Havenstone is generously letting me type it in. A bit meta but sure, I can role-play my MC having heard that name once or twice.” -Success

“Choice 4: Well, he’s still not convinced. And now I can’t use anything but INT and CHA to get out of it. Well…I did pass 3 checks in a row, maybe that can afford me 1 failure? I’ll just tell him to mind his own business” - Failed

“OH, that one failed check at the end busted me. And Cerlota had to save me. That’s sad.”

So after a couple few successful lies, we’re still busted by just one failed check. It’s a bit anticlimactic, especially since it comes at the very end as well. It gives off “the game was rigged from the start” vibes. Which it is, whether I successfully tell 3 lies or 0, I still get busted regardless.

What if we could just sucker punch the dude?

He’d still rat on us later when he comes to, but at least Cerlota doesn’t have to intervene, and COM builds would actually get a stat choice in that last decision. And it could be pretty funny, and offset the failure vibe. “Well, I couldn’t convince him, but f*ck that guy, at least I got a headstart on running away from him!”.

So, to conclude all this, I think COM in Game 2 is fine, a solid 8/10 while CHA is a 9 and INT is a 10. It’s poised to get some much needed love in the Rim management sections, so as long as its effects are communicated more clearly, and it gets a bit of extra flavor here and there, I think it’s headed in the right direction. Even outmatched, COM will always have a playstyle and loyal followers and we COMmies love it unconditionally!

[BlaiseB]

@Zamfir

“Choice 3: Okay, he bought that but now he’s asking about the aristarch? Crap…I’m not smart enough for that. But I did see some of the people on the Discord mentioning this. And Havenstone is generously letting me type it in. A bit meta but sure, I can role-play my MC having heard that name once or twice.”

@Havenstone Just to expand on this issue a bit, I think it would be helpful if you put a couple of offhand references to the Naldenatou & Darridge in Uprising. Specifically, with characters who could have plausibly passed through, such as Horion or the Sarinatou Brothers. We still don’t know the exact route Horion took and can’t directly ask him about it. However, it seems that a lot of players end up talking with him. Including both of these pieces of information in a new conversation topic could be a solution for effectively roleplaying the situation in Mesniel with an actual source for our answer.

It doesn’t have to be tracked, but the reference alone may be helpful to players who are trying to get by without meta-gaming. However, I’m not going to push too hard for this, since you’re already so busy.

[Ramidel]

@Havenstone

I’ve got a policy of not number-statting characters

Theurge INT and Blademaster COM aside.

[maximo_caseres]

What’s the Blademaster COM numbers?

[Ramidel]

Assuming it’s identical to Theurges:
3=First Kyklos.
4=Second Kyklos
5=Third Kyklos

[maroder123]

@Zamfir

While CHA and INT builds succeed in the social scenarios and don’t have to busy themselves with much else

People overestimate how much INT helps outside of theurgy. they do have some impact on social encounters buts its preaty minimal.

@Zamfir

so I may have had an easy time keeping order up because I chose the high order route.

Irduins order dose depend massivly what your rebelion is doing and how game 1 whent. Generaly keeping high order is always easy, price of it is that you dont learn any secrets and then cant destory irduin.

[maximo_caseres]

@maroder123

they do have some impact on social encounters buts its preaty minimal

While INT isn’t as universally helpful with the social encounters as Charisma, there are still at least a couple scenarios where 2 int and 2 cha are equally helpful in maintaining sus low, such as when you’re interrogated on Cerlotta’s sap killing techniques, or when the refugee starts asking too many questions about your rim origins, and teaching others theurgy is a very big asset for the rebellion if you can bring them back.

@maroder123

Irduins order dose depend massivly what your rebelion is doing and how game 1 whent

You can either start with as little as 68 unity for the moderate, 24 anarchy evasion rebellion, or 181+ for any extremist rebellion going above 41 anarchy. But I think you can still bring those from it’s (almost) minimum threshold to its maximum and viceversa if you know what faction to target.

It’s the yeomanry, the yeomanry are key in Irduin.

@maroder123

Generaly keeping high order is always easy, price of it is that you dont learn any secrets and then cant destory irduin.

You can certainly learn secrets while pursuing high order, you just do your best to bury them and keep the xaos-loving commons from massacring the de Irde.

[CottonWolf]

@maximo_caseres

You can either start with as little as 68 unity for the moderate, 24 anarchy evasion rebellion, or 181+ for any extremist rebellion going above 41 anarchy. But I think you can still bring those from it’s (almost) minimum threshold to its maximum and viceversa if you know what faction to target.

I thought it was possible to have a high enough unity from a high anarchy save import to make it mathematically impossible to reach the low unity threshold? Maybe that’s only true for sub CHA 2 characters.