Choice of Rebels Part 1 WIP thread

Continuing response to @WulfyK’s banditry suggestions:

  1. a. Adding more targets to any of the raids (not just the temple one) would add replayability – but it would also take more time, and I’m keen to finish the game!
    b. Answered already – I’ll switch the line to a named character.

  2. Good point, I agree. I haven’t used Radmar enough.

  3. a. I’ll pop in a line noting that the Telone of Rim Square (whose name doesn’t come up on those paths) is blamed and harrowed.
    b. Which offer do you mean by “the offer at the inn”? Going to the inn Breden suggests never ends very well. And using theurgy on Noemi always kills her; you simply don’t have the finesse to do what you’re trying to do Theurgically (but the only way to find that out is a horrific accident).
    c. No – if you’re referring to her saying “Mmmm. Well, there’s no controlling children’s dreams. I’ve two daughters of my own, you know,” that doesn’t imply they’re in Rim Square.
    d. OK.
    e. The punishments were the same; Bleys is just giving the nutshell version with the important facts. As you note, public Harrowing is shame enough; there was no reason for Bleys to belabor the shameful way that the victims were taken to their Harrowing. And likewise you can assume Bleys “confessed under torment.” When seriously tortured, everyone confesses. Whether or not anyone’s asking.
    f. The noblewoman killed for heresy by Zebed was a heretic. He had evidence.
    g. I’m pretty sure that if you betray Bleys, he gets nabbed by the Keriatou and killed before he has any chance to meet with you. There should be no chance for him to counter-betray you.

@Heavenstone I’m glad that some of my suggestions are helping you! However, yoir reply raised some new questions, here they are:

3.a. writing this take you that much extra time? You’ve got a lot more to write for chapters 3 and 4, and anyway, I strongly suggest you not to sacrifice quality (that includes replayability) for a quicker release.
b. I hope this will be Yetta.

5.b. sometimes I can’t select “accept it” to the man’s offer to sell out the architelone for ten drachems. Now that you says it always ends badly, I guess it’s because the MC has INT 2 and realizes this.
c. I referred to this line.And where are they? Can you tell a bit more about Fellen and about the alastors’ private lives in general?
e. Whoa, that means they ultimately suffer five punishments? That sounds worse then the even punishment of Ester Cable, who was merely slow-harrowed and then exposed and quartered posthumously, thus not having to endure that shame and definitely much worse then the MC’s helot friends who have a beatdown during arrest followed by a normal harrowing.
f. If he had evidence, why did he order a summary execution? Shouldn’t the noblewoman have been tried by her peers?
g. According to the game he gets harrowed, the same as if I kill Xedia. But if the MC tells her that s/he has Bleys’ family, why shouldn’t Xedia, Lord Keriatou and the alastor captain not make use of this information and plan the trap. They should convince Bleys to betray the MC or torture him until he agrees to help them. Bleys would be only their pawn in this case.

Finally, I want to support @57Faults’ proposal of more checkpoints. Also, if you really want to use IAPs, it would be best to offer them as another IAP.

@WulfyK: 3a. Yep, adding more raid options would take days – assuming you’re suggesting I write different text and not just have all the “choices” lead to a near-identical face-off with an Ecclesiast. The temple encounter isn’t a short one like the barn raids or helot begging, after all. Remember, I’m not doing this full time; a day of writing is usually 1-2 hours, or up to 4 if I’m lucky. (Like @HornHeadFan, I’d like to take some time off work to write full-time for a week – that might just happen next month, fingers crossed).

Because my priority now is advancing the story, I’ll only go back to edit the existing text where I think it will significantly increase the quality. For example, I agree with you that having more Radmar in the bandit scenes is important; I’ve not quite integrated Elery and Radmar to the extent I think they deserve. But in my view, extra raiding options like a new temple or caravan or market town to raid are at best Nice To Have (let’s call them NTH) – fun but adding nothing other than a bit of extra replayability. A writer can always add more NTHs; but at some point, you just have to stop. I’m content that the scope of the bandit chapter is broad enough for a quality game.

And in some places, adding more choices/details would in my judgment diminish the quality. They’d slow down the pace, or bog readers down in extraneous detail that has them flipping to the Index when I want them caught up in the flow. Of those kinds of changes, I’d say Less Is More (LIM). Take 5c, for example – if you had been suggesting that in the game I add more detail about the private life of Alastor Fellen, I’d call it a case of LIM. Fellen only has a name because it would have been unnatural for her comrade not to call it in certain scenes. Yes, I want her dialogue to suggest a life beyond her brief appearance in the game; but as for the details, I’ll just join Michael Ende in saying, “That is another story, and will be told another time.” (Spoiler: that time never comes).

When I respond to a suggestion with NTH or LIM, feel free to keep arguing – everyone’s taste is different. Ultimately, I’ll be writing this game to mine. But there will be cases where I’m persuadable.

5b: Yep, exactly. It’s grayed-out because I thought I’d give high-INT players a hint that a lower-INT character would have the chance to lose here.
5c: Alastor Fellen’s kids are back in her home in Corlune, the great trading city of the Shayard Coast. Their house isn’t that far from where the River Veldre meets the sea. Her husband is a shopkeeper selling dried fish and olives. But while I’m happy to spin that yarn for you on the forum, adding that kind of detail in-game right now would (I think) be a LIM error. Humanizing the Alastors can come later.
5e: “Five punishments” isn’t really how people in this world would think of it; that’s much too precise. Like other terror-states, the Hegemony routinely piles on as many punishments as it thinks it will take to get the message across – and yes, betraying an Architelone earns a more vehement response than helots hiding a runaway. As for Ester Cabel, any Shayardene would take for granted that she was tortured and shamed before the Slow-Harrowing. If she wasn’t publicly paraded between towns like Bleys, it was only because the odds of someone trying to rescue Bleys were negligible.
5f: Yes, in theory the noble should have been tried by her peers. And in theory, any noble in the Rim could complain to the Archimandrite that Zebed overstepped his bounds. But there are some crimes where it makes sense to publicly grumble… and heresy isn’t one of them. Especially not when aristarch Keriatou was the one who called in Zebed.
5g: Both you and Xedia know exactly what you’re doing if you betray Bleys – there’s no way that anyone in this world would expect the Karagonds actually to have mercy on a Telone who betrayed his master. Not for a second. If Bleys were spared, it would be such a transparent trap that Xedia would expect you to kill the family and not come anywhere near him. (She probably assumes you’ve killed his family anyway). No: when you say, “I’m glad we understand each other,” you’re confirming that Bleys is the victim.

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If Bleys is caught and harrowed, why do we have no choice but to allow his wife to lead her kids into the Xaos-lands? Why not offer to let them join the band? Obviously she wouldn’t be too keen on throwing in with the people who got her husband executed, but it would provide at the very least a marginally better chance of survival. And if she refuses, why not take her children away from her? It would be cruel, certainly, but seeing as the alternative is to let them die horribly in the Xaos-lands…

@Sneaks: As I’ve written it, you order their release, not knowing that they intend to go west instead of trying to sneak back home to the Southriding. Ciels makes the call on what to do when it becomes clear that they’re heading to Xaos. Expanding that to give you more choice (and Huette a chance to spit in your face) is a NTH, I think – not a priority.

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@Havenstone, I more or less agree on the NTH and LIM here. For me, replayability is a very important thing because this is one of the things that make choice of games, or games in general differnt from novels or movies/TV.

Good to know that you might have more time for working on the game. I hope you’ll manage to get this week. [-O<

As to Fellen: I didn’t want more information on her in the game, I wanted it on the forum because I had two ideas for potential character development and interaction of the MC with her or other alastors. and wanted to check out the background before giving you an idea that wouldn’t be possible in the game’s universe. Your answer makes one of them impossible and the other one appropriate for a later chapter, so I won’t bother you with it now.

5.f. Then I think this should be explained in-game, in order to avoid this question by other players. It would be a short passage to add.

5.e.&g. For me, this punishment for someone who is either a scapegoat or blamed only by the hints coming from a bandit captain is too excessive and sends the wrong message: that the hegemony is losing control and gets betrayed even by the nobles/rich merchants/own officials and is not able to be 100% sure who is the real culpit, because If they’re stripped naked, all the torture marks on their bodies will be visible and you already pointed out that when seriously tortured, everyone confesses the people watching the execution would think the same and don’t buy that this is the real culpit.

It would make more sence to leave them clothed in order to hide these traces of torture, but additionally proclaim that they’ve been betrayed by the MC. I think this would make the scapegoating less obvious and this be better deterrance for other possible traitors.

Also, nailing the hands to a wagon causes significant blood loss, which goes against the declared goal of the harrowing: to gain the victim’s blood. If you want to keep the level of brutality, I think using a slow harrowing again would be more appropriate, isn’t it supposed to be the usual aggreviated punishment for treason?

And if you say that the alastors don’t expect them to be rescued during transport, wouldn’t an idealistic MC use this to attempt such a rescue an possibly succeed with a high COM stat or theurgy, or at least give the Ismene, Bleys or Alaine a mercy kill?

Finally, what do you think on my suggestions for Yetta and the IAP Checkpoints?

@WulfyK
Just on the nailing piece, it actually doesn’t cause much blood loss since you don’t have any major blood vessels in you hands. The nail itself also acts as a sort of band-aid. That’s why they tell you not to remove or move an object you have been impaled with if you are injured.

There has been some research done on methods of crucifixion, and while scholarly opinions vary, basically the main issue with nailing hands is that the nail would rip through the flesh of the hand if it had to support any weight.

The likely alternative is that victims were nailed through the wrist, between the bones in the forearm or simply nailed through the feet and tied by the hands.

In either any case I think Havenstone’s depiction works, because its a second hand recounting. Helots who observed the nailing would most likely report it as through the hands like historical retelling of crucifixion has.

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@WulfyK,
5f: LIM.
5e: sadly, state terrorism works better than I think you think it does–especially in a context where rule of law has never really been experienced–and it works on principles like rapid, disproportionate punishment and obvious scapegoating.
Mercy kill/rescue: NTH, but not necessarily feasible for the MC. I’m leaving it out.
Yetta: whether or not I make her more than a confused little child, she’s too young to be on the temple raid (seven years younger than you = 12). Should I also do something with her noble counterpart Calyse? :slight_smile:
IAP/checkpoints: noted.

And rolling on:
6. Good call, I’ll try to add that.

  1. NTH.

  2. The Helot MC does send daddy on that mission–he’d be expected to go on some mission, after all. There’s just much less drama in it.

9.a. Already responded.

10.a Interesting, good idea–might be a NTH, but I’ll seriously consider putting this in.
b. Maybe I’ll give an INT2 character a bonus here.
c. It’s not yet possible for you to have good enough relations to successfully recruit from those groups; they’ve got so much more to lose.

11.a. As Lady Pelematou probably replied when she was rebuked on this point, “Damn it all, George, sometimes you just have to kill a helot.” Harrowers usually come through only once or twice a year; nobles/Alastors have to deal with helot disciplinary issues much more frequently, and can’t always be bothered to wait.
b.Ciels is always Breden’s preferred gender.

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@Havenstone
5.e. Isn’t State terrorism used by either weak, newly established or collapsing or completely psychotic regimes? A 300 years old Hegemony should have a concept similar to the Roman Pax Romana, medieval Divine Order or Chinese Heavenly Harmony: a rigid, but not arbitrary rule. I thought that this line form the World Index
The Karagond Canon, which the Ecclesiasts claim is the authoritative revelation from the Angels, spells out in great detail how all humans should behave
implies such a strict rule of law.

Anyway, while rapidness and exaggerated brutality of the punsihments frightens people into obedience, my game-experience with the mutiny in Choice of Broadsides and common sence tell me that obvious scapegoating is exactly the wrong way:

Executing someone on very filmsy evidence and a confession under torture shows that the Hegemony isn’t able to find more solid proofs, and quite possibly is punishing an innocent person. It destroys the system’s credibility in the public’s eyes, who have all reason to fear both the real traitor’s schemes AND being made responsible for some crime they didn’t commit next time, it encourages those who believe they can outsmart the law to cooperate with the MC for their own benefit and the more devote people will consider a blatant miscarige of justice an evidence for Xaos influencing the hegemonial law enforcement (especially if the MC has already exposed the Hegemony’s heresy in the Temple). Allotgether this would negate the deterrance of the punishment’s cruelty.

Holding a quick court, hiding the traces of torture (either by leaving the victim clothed or using methodes like waterboarding that don’t leave marks), presenting some faked but belieavable evidence/“whitness” testimony and proclaiming that the MC betrayed the traitor after s/he was no longer useful to him/her would make the scapegoating far less aparent and furhter damage the MC’s credibility.

3b. The core plan for the temple raid involves entering it undercover as a group of pilgrims, including one child into the group might be very useful to make them look harmless and less suspicious.

The MC obviously wouldn’t have chance interaction with Calyse by now, but maybe she can give her/him another title later, perhaps “the Liberator” or “the Conqueror” after s/he establishes the rebel’s rule over Rim Square or “the Merciful” if s/he spares the nobles there?

  1. Is there any possibility to send the father to any other mission?

11.a. is George Lord Keriatou’s given name? From his action, I got the impression that the Hegemony prohibits nobles to kill their helots outright (e.g. by hanging) as this would waste the blood, so that they use excessive beatings/whippings until death for killings and declare them as “accidents”.

b.how is Breden’s preferred gender determined? Does it depend on how the relationship with the MC develops?

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Let’s start with 12 and put last page to bed! Thanks for the suggestion of new missions, but they’re in general NTHs, and a couple of them strike me as not feasible. For example, forging coins requires precious metal – which you could more readily barter than stamp with some poor imitation of the Thaumatarch’s head. (No one in a remote town like Rim Square would be likely to have the skills to forge a good die-stamp – there’s not nearly enough demand for those skills). And having a silver mine/buried treasure in the Whendward would be too convenient.

I do agree that cattle thievery deserves a short option. There aren’t big herds in the Rim, so as with robbing yeoman barns, stealing cattle would be an painfully drawn-out, high-risk, low-reward way to feed the band. Sheep are the real money-earner for the big families like the Keriatou – but the flocks are transhumant, and during the winter, they’re all pastured down in the Southriding. It’s the wrong season to get by on mutton.

And while I can understand the appeal of a Xaos-lands expedition, it would be perceived as simply crazy by your band. They’ll see any raid, anywhere, as a better idea than the “certain death” of hiking into Xaos. Not to mention the possible damnation – Xaos is the Enemy of Xthonos, and as will become clear at the appropriate point in the narrative, it’s a rare Shayardene who doesn’t feel some frisson of fear for their soul at the thought of dying in a Xaos-storm.

Back now to 5e: state terror is a standard pillar of imperial and colonial rule and can last centuries – just ask the Irish, or Chechens. (Or if you could go back in time the Judeans or Gauls; Roman law was lovely if you were a citizen, but for non-citizens, the threat of mass crucifixions if you didn’t knuckle under and pay your taxes was rather more relevant). It’s rare for a country to expect colonial subjects to submit out of loyalty or any sense of legitimacy, so fear is a pervasive part of the system. That consistently manifests itself in torture and deterrence through brutal, disproportionate, and collective punishment. And no, having a very detailed religious code of laws is not the same thing as the rule of law, though it’s an important step on the path that got us there.

You talk about “the system’s credibility” – but the system of punishment in many imperial and colonial regimes is, “someone will suffer ASAP… and if afterward there’s reason to think we didn’t get the right person, someone else will suffer, and so on until things quieten down.” The system’s credibility is the ability to credibly deliver that kind of violence in situations where it’s challenged. It generally runs into problems not when it punishes the innocent, but when it punishes someone who has enough power to push back (in that delicate balance of power between imperial administrators and local elites that, with some variation, characterizes all empires). And the system can last, as I said, for centuries – even without the vast disparity of power (and ability to turn rebels into mage-fodder) that Theurgy has created in the gameworld.

So in this case, no one involved in the Architelone plot is powerful enough that the Keriatou would need to go to the trouble of the sort of show trial you’re suggesting. You’re right that in a game set in a more modern era, like Broadsides, the need to avoid an overt miscarriage of justice would be much more important. But that comes after some key watersheds, like people no longer believing that torture delivered reliable confessions (it was a staple of most premodern justice systems; indeed, for the Romans, it was a mandatory part of any slave trial, as it was believed that slaves would always lie without torture). This gameworld is still at the point where people half-believe it… where it’s widely recognized that torture always leads to a confession, but there’s still some sense that it’s a necessary part of the process. (Which corresponds to my understanding of attitudes in 16th century Europe).

  1. All the other missions pose much greater risk to your dad’s life. To me, that’s reason enough to limit the options to this one. To the understandable would-be parricides, I can only say NTH.

11a. No, not really – I was just imagining Lady P as a plummy English noblewoman there. Lord Keriatou’s name is actually Stilos. And while I can understand why you interpreted it that way, the Hegemony doesn’t forbid killing of helots. The Karagonds are in strong sympathy with the nobles’ argument that they could never keep order if the helots didn’t think they could be killed at any moment.
b. Breden’s preferred gender is determined when you choose whether you’re male or female.

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12.If forging coins wouldn’t work, would cutting and (theurgy-supported) sweating be doable? And could the MC explore the Xaos-lands alone or with one or two most loyal and daredevil followers (I think Breden would be most likely to agree to come), in fact thaking him/her or Radmar would also double as a loyalty test.

5.e. I think we use different conceptions of state terror. For me, this is completely unprovoked violence against arbitrary selected loyal, law-abiding individuals or groups, apparently you use a broader definition.

Thank you for the lengthy explanation anyway. Now I think that in order to prevent other players getting the same headscratchers and wrong impressions, you should mention the same details for Bleys’ execution as for Ismene’s or Alaine’s. Of course you decide if you want to expand one part or shorten the other.

The judicial system, including attitude towards torture, the punishments etc. definitely need to be explained in greater detail, either in the game itself or the world index.

A few more questions raised by your replies: How low are the Shayardene nobles and merchants ranking in the Hegemony’s eyes? How much does the Thaumatarch and his government care about them? How much opression do an average (not too nationalistic) noble or merchant/yeoman feel in his/her daily life?

8.Why not take him to the temple raid? It’s not dangerous too. Is he too devote to participate?
Speaking of the teple raid, you’ve left out a response to 3.b. again.

11.a. That means the de Merres and Ciels’ owners are form a different district?
b.Will it be possible to ship Breden and Ciels and/or romance Ciels?

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  1. Hmmm. I’m not sure enough actual coin passes through your hands for cutting/sweating to make a significant difference to your prospects; and it has the additional problem that you don’t buy things on the open market but through a few traders/fences. You’d be unlikely to get away with paying these savvy players in debased coin–and if you did and they got in trouble for it, you’d have wrecked an important relationship for little gain.

Exploring across the Ward would be perceived by the characters as crazy enough that I’m comfortable omitting that option from your frantic efforts to survive the winter. What you may be able to talk Breden/Ciels/Radmar into later is another story.

  1. Fair enough on your different understanding. Beyond the details already in the Index, I’m inclined to continue a show-not-tell approach to the nature of the Hegemony and its systems, which means some readers will inevitably have headscratchers, but hopefully be willing to keep reading and absorb a fuller picture over time.

The Hegemony cares about some provincial nobles and merchants much more than others, based on things like power, wealth, and loyalty–but fundamentally, the system privileges Karagonds. All free provincials feel the bite of heavy taxation combined with Alastor extortion, and know that only the most powerful like the Keriatou have any real protection or appeal if they fall under suspicion of sedition. (Which made it all the more shocking when Lord Stilos’ nephew was taken by a Kryptast-- a reminder that ultimately no one can be sure of reprieve or appeal).

  1. Robbing people at swordpoint after luring away the town Alastors is a different level of “not dangerous” than nighttime visits to helot camps; so yes, extra Dad missions remain NTH. And my 3b answer is unchanged.

11a. No. Lord Keriatou doesn’t outright forbid it, either; and the estates based further from Rim Square have less reason to care about what he considers prudent or wasteful.
11b. Romancing Ciels in game 1 is NTH. Encouraging Breden and Ciels to get together is probably superfluous–if you don’t go for Breden, Ciels is the one s/he gets interested in.

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Sorry, but I’m really confused what are those acronyms everywhere? NTH ALH? THIS GAME USED TO BE SIMPLER! :((

He explains them earlier, at least partially. NTH = Nice To Have. Meaning, good to think about, but not a priority, especially if it would be difficult to add.

Ahhh in mobile mode, you only could see part of messages so no idea the explanation. I still feel I have no ruthless badass speeches with my dirty pilgrims self proclaimed rebellion leaders. Rebolucionary in historical situations are known for their high intellectual or charismatic ideology proclaums. Hell even in rome and platon times where this way! Here i was mute all time except raids.

Hey Mara–yeah, they’re short ways for me to respond to suggestions I don’t think will end up in the game. NTH (Nice to Have) when it’s a fun idea that would work but isn’t a priority (because I don’t think it addresses an actual weakness), and Less Is More (LIM) when I actually think adding it would weaken the game by over-explaining something or causing pacing problems.

I originally explained the terms here but will now try linking back to this post when I use them. :slight_smile:

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Can’t wait for this to get published.

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@poison_mara, can’t you switch to desctop view?

@Heavenstone, 5. then you should include a scene where the MC and the player have an encounter with the hegemonial “justice” and learns all about it. I have an idea how you could do it, do you want to hear it now or later, after you’ve finished chapter 3?

3.b. :-S Anyone here who likes my proposal? :-S

11.a. Is his authority as aristarch informal? And is an aristarch more like a feudal lord or an bureaucratic administrator?

@Wulfyk yes, but my mobile screen is tiny less 4 ’ so I prefer mobile version. And about you idea is ok but characters like mine doesn’t care a bit all that conversation and lore due I’m a demagogue’s politician so truth and that is as important for her as the helots working condition so I just want skip all that text about lore so alien my character

@WulfyK: let’s hear it! No time like the present.

  1. It’s more feudal than bureaucratic, and a combination of formal and informal authority. Formally, an aristarch is appointed to work with the Alastors and Ecclesiasts in their district to hold courts, punish crimes, enforce laws, and do whatever else is necessary to maintain order. The amount of power this actually entails varies tremendously across the Hegemony. There are aristarchs who serve as nothing more than a mouthpiece for the Hegemonic institutions in their area; there are aristarchs who play these relatively ignorant, frequently rotated outsiders like harps; and there are not a few aristarchs who are at daggers drawn with their Ecclesiast and/or Alastor captain, but manage to stay in the office because they keep the peace, keep up a respectable veneer of cooperation, and have the right allies to make the case in the provincial capital that no one else would keep things running as smoothly in that district.

Lord Keriatou’s formal authority does not extend to telling Lady Pelematou what she should do with her helots, but she’d be reckless to ignore his advice.

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