To start with, I’m new to Choicescript (I’ve been working on learning the coding aspects of the software for the last week or two), and I’ve read five or six Hosted Game stories overall. I’ve read the free portions of many, many more. However, it’s because of my readings that I am here posting a question.
When making a game, is a nonbinary option for the MC necessary?
If it is, which pronouns would one use? I dislike the ‘them, they, their’ pronouns because that’s attributed to multiple people instead of singular. The idea of using ‘it, it’s, and its’ is a bit insulting (unless you don’t know the gender or race offhand, and it’s a placeholder until you do). I do want a nonbinary option, because some people don’t want to be referred to a male or female, but the only other terms I’ve found are:
ze, hir/zir, hirs/zirs, hirself/zirself
Personally, I’m more inclined to use ‘zir’ if I was to go the nonbinary route for the coding, but I also don’t want to start a riot by excluding the ‘them/their’ and the ‘it/its’ groups. I want to use something that’s easy to use and won’t be confusing to people who aren’t familiar nonbinary forms of speech. Because, frankly, listening to someone refer to themself as a ‘they’ bring about old fears of possession from my childhood after watching The Exorcism of Emily Rose and other similar stories where the person had a demon or two in their body.
Then it was really a moment of ‘they’ are speaking to you from one body.
For my own story, the only time the terms would be used would be in past reflections or character conversations (either with the player or between other NPCs). The only example I can think of off the top of my head is this:
“It was my intention to help zir/hir,” So-and-So frowned. He turned to the Commander, voice low as he meet his superior’s gaze, “I apologize if my ill-thought actions caused offense between the nobles and the rest of the Inquisition.”
To me, that sounds better than:
“It was my intention to help them,” …
Mainly because it’s easy to see it’s one person instead of a group being referenced.
I will answer this part and let the others answers the rest due to lack of knowledge. When it comes to Hosted Games and even Heart’s Choices, the PC may not be gender variable and as you probably have seen, some of the stories published are gender-locked. If I recall correctly, it is only COG games that it’s mandatory to ensure that the PC is not restricted to just one gender.
It/it’s is offensive to most non-binary people. (There are few who might try to reclaim it, but for most it is a slur), so go with your instinct to not use that.
Personally, I prefer ze-hir, but “they” are the most common.
That said you can give player the option of changing their pronouns in the stats screen and just have ze-hir as default.
I’ll be sure to hop over and give that one a read. Anything anyone can toss my way is information that’s useful. If you have any other sources of info you know of and can direct me to, I’d be quite happy.
So far, the ones I have read have all had nonbinary options available. I have yet to stumble across one that’s gender-locked, which may be due to the fact that they probably aren’t as common (not sure, though). It does make coding interesting, especially when trying to get everything to work smoothly.
I suppose I could also make a secondary choice when selecting nonbinary as an option with an option of choosing between ze-her and they-them. I’m not entirely sure how to change something like that in the stats screen, just yet (haven’t gotten that far), but that’s something to look into, that’s for sure.
That thread should pretty much cover it. It would probably be wise to give it a read and then ask any further questions you have. Leading off with why you think people shouldn’t get to use (popular, widespread) nb pronouns (because it makes them sound like they’re “possessed by a demon”) and so on doesn’t really set the table for productive discussion
If you want to make a game without a nonbinary gender option, to answer your question, that’s perfectly acceptable–and frankly might be a good choice.
Blockquote Because, frankly, listening to someone refer to themself as a ‘they’
[/quote]
From just these you seem like you have a good grasp on they/them pronouns in my opinion as someone who uses They/them for myself. I would recommend diving into the history of singular they pronouns since those pronouns have existed for hundreds of years.
If you still come to the same conclusion of being discomforted, I’d recommend not having non-binary options at all. It’s your choice.
Coding-wise, there is some sample code here (also linked in the other thread about pronouns) so hopefully you can use that as a guide and it shouldn’t pose too much of a challenge.
It’s perfectly possible to let people enter their own choice of pronouns. You can use the *input_text command to do this, followed by the name of the variable, which will lead to a box where the reader can type in a pronoun. Most games allow this for names anyway! You can code it the same way.
That’d also require a check for whether the pronoun takes singular or plural agreement.
As for the background and context of singular “they,” this is a conversation we’ve had many times before, so I’ll just link a previous post I made in this same topic.
I haven’t heard them all spoken, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it varies by person, but in my experience, “hir” sounds like “hear,” and xe or ze or zie (etc.) start with a z- and rhyme with “see.” Ey/em/eir/eirs would sound like they/them/their/theirs without the th-, and I believe e/em/eir/eirs would be the same except that “e” instead rhymes with “see.” Not sure about the rest.
Thanks for the link to the post. One of many for me to reading.
I think I may try the *input_text option, which I use for the naming the main character already. I do wonder if it’s okay to just let the player name their own character instead of offering a ton naming options for either gender - or if I should offer a few choices and also an option for picking a name on their own…
Personally, I prefer having a small number of suggested names plus an option to input your own. The suggestions could all be gender neutral or could be coded something like this:
Your name is...
*choice
#Sam
*set name Sam
#Alex
*set name Alex
*if gender = female
#Sarah
*set name Sarah
#Rachel
*set name Rachel
*if gender = male
#Mike
*set name Mike
#Nick
*set name Nick
#Let me enter my own.
*input_text name
ok, the topic your query has been merged into is literally named “a matter of respect.” i think it’s safe to say you’re not the only person who grew up with horror (hi, me too). even if fictional depictions of demons are what comes to your mind, understand that for the potential non-b people playing your eventual game, that is just their pronoun. like, the possessed person you’re describing is a fictional character with a demon living inside them. a non-binary person is a literal breathing human being, much like the one writing this post. it’s hard to take your request for advice on this as genuine if you’re going to insist on explaining why singular they/them as a personal pronoun makes you feel x y or z.
and comrade. have.
you read.
this thread? i know it’s 150+ posts but all three of those quotes of yours up there are addressed multiple times in this very thread, clearly and exhaustively. only thing i’ll add is that it sounds like you are conflating the term “non-binary” with the use of singular they. Non-binary is a relatively new term; singular they is old af. you see somebody walking in your direction in a baggie hoodie and skinny jeans and you can’t make out their physical features. you’d probably wonder, “Who’s that?” but you might also wonder, “Who are they?” english 101, yeah?
that is a lot less of a cultural thing, and more of a linguistic thing that has cultural connotations and repercussions
coding for other pronouns is a lot less tricky than people assume, i’ve learned. if you aren’t checking the resources on how others have done it and it’s your first time using Choicescript, I can see how it would seem that way. when i started writing my game, i thought coding nb pronouns would be difficult mainly because i’d read so many people on here talking about how it would be difficult. emphasis on “would be”–it was usually coming from people who were also new to coding or who were explaining why they didn’t plan on implementing non-binary player pronouns.
turns out once i learned how multi-replace works, it was simple. reverse-engineering an already-completed story to incorporate new gender variables is probably difficult (specifically, “he/she is” and “they are” clashing). but if you’re already starting from scratch, it’s not hard.
the way i do it, as a noob coder
the variable in my startup is simply
*comment 1 - he, 2 - she, 3 - they
*create pronoun ""
*create he ""
*create him ""
*create his ""
*create his2 ""
*create himself ""
(the comment is there as a self-reminder cuz my brain is soup)
this is what happens when you select your pronouns in-game:
[Set your character's pronouns:]
*fake_choice
#he/him/his
*set pronoun 1
*set he "he"
*set him "him"
*set his "his"
*set his2 "his"
#she/her/her
*set pronoun 2
*set he "she"
*set him "her"
*set his "her"
*set his2 "hers"
#they/them/their
*set pronoun 3
*set he "they"
*set him "them"
*set his "their"
*set his2 "theirs"
and using multi-replace, this code:
I swear ${he} @{pronoun gets|gets|get} it from you…
becomes this sentence:
boom, set. if it seems tedious, remember that it’s only slightly more tedious than having to use variable code instead of pronouns when referring to the MC for the entire game anyway. (and if you’re writing in second-person, you likely won’t be referring to the MC like this very much in the grand scheme of your story.) and i think it’s likely way less tedious than anything to do with, like, stats or, oh god, inventory /shudder
But that doesn't resolve the "he is / they are" type issues.
I used to resolve that by using these variables in my startup:
*create he_is ""
*create he_s ""
and doing this when choosing they/them pronouns:
*set he_is "they are"
*set he_s "they're"
it works, but it displeases me. I use contractions with pronouns a lot in dialogue so now instead of using a separate variable, I just use multi-replace when I need it. this code:
I swear ${he} @{pronoun gets|gets|get} it from you… Look at the way ${he}'@{pronoun s|s|re} stalling. $!{he}'@{pronoun s|s|ve} had practically all day to get ready!
becomes this text:
hope that was helpful. i’ve never posted any of my code before, so it might be a mess for all i know lol. but from one newcomer to another, it really isn’t as hard as people think. pinky swear.
First, this post further upthread addresses the “singular they is difficult to get used to” angle of your post better than I ever could. Second, there are a few sites I’ve come across where you can practice using they/them and neopronouns for people; it’s fairly easy to get the hang of them, in my experience. I’ll edit them in later.
Assuming you’re talking about gender presentation here,
That is separate from pronoun usage. Some girls dress masculinely, some boys dress femininely, some nonbinary people dress in traditionally feminine/masculine clothes, etc. It doesn’t change what pronouns they use.
Some people dress androgynously? Not all clothes are coded as male or female?
I’ve seen several games that have options like so:
What are your pronouns?
> He/him.
> She/her.
> They/them.
> Something else.
And how do you present?
> I dress in traditionally masculine clothes.
> I dress in traditionally feminine clothes.
> I dress in traditionally androgynous clothes.
There: coding that allows for gender expression while not misgendering anyone!
If someone doesn’t use he/him or she/her pronouns, and you use those pronouns for them anyway, you are misgendering them. People can be described to the police without being misgendered. For example:
“My roommate is a nonbinary person who usually dresses in suits and tuxedos. They have bright green eyes, a mole under their left eye, and round cheeks. Their hair is dark brown and styled in a Mohawk. I last saw them at around five PM.”
I don’t see how that’s worse than “oh yeah, they’re agender but they ‘look male,’” which is at best unhelpful (what does look male mean when there are so many ways to perform masculinity?) and at worst dysphoria-inducing.
There is a difference between “this game doesn’t have any options that don’t make me feel icky/dysphoric” and “reading these pronouns make me feel uncomfortable.” If you are bothered by real-life nonbinary people using their own pronouns, then I suggest interacting with more of them online or at least expanding the content you usually read. As a person who learned about they/them pronouns maybe two years ago, I promise they are not too hard to pick up.
Edit: practice websites as promised.
This one includes they/them and neopronouns, and also uses Welcome to Night Vale sentences, which I personally appreciate.
Here’s one that also includes neopronouns and has nice graphics, too.
This carrd is solely for neopronouns (not they/them), but it’s a good resource anyway so I’m throwing it in here. Maybe someone else reading over this can put it to good use.
Edit 2: because I missed something.
If you mean that the character uses they/them, but the PC uses she/her or he/him for them, that is misgendering. You are invalidating their pronouns. I cannot think of a situation where that could be seen as good for anyone.
Here’s what I did in my WiP, by the way — one of my characters uses both they/them and a different pronoun (she/her or he/him, depending on the random dice roll). Your PC chooses in-game whether to refer to said character using they/them or the other pronoun. That’s fine, because the character is explicitly comfortable with both sets of pronouns; if that’s what you have in mind, then by all means go for it! But if your character specifically only uses they/them, and the PC refers to them by a different pronoun anyway, that is disrespect. And, well. [gestures at the title of the thread]
Like I said in my post not how the Player/PC refers to the NPC but how the NPC “is referred to the player” (by player I mean Me who is actually reading the story not the characters in the story)
It makes it easier for me to get immersed if I’m not thinking gender politics every time I have an interaction with a particular character
I’m maybe not expressing my thoughts perfectly but I think the message should be a bit clear
This is nothing about politics, but as the title of the thread says, of respect.
I get it… you don’t want to respect the author creating an NPC that challenges your world-view, and you’d rather have the game conform to your view.
Doing this is telling the author… “Hey… I don’t respect your creation.”
Police reports often misgender suspects or other parties; sometimes it is because the officer is ignorant of the reality, sometimes it is because the officer in question lacks respect for the person being described.
Your ability to self-insert is not end-all be-all of an IF game, especially one published by CoG/HC/HG .
Edit:
This is exactly what you are saying.
You are telling the author that they must script in an option to allow you to regender a particular NPC to avoid the use of singular they/them.
You are saying … “Hey author, from the description in your story, I believe this NPC should be male… make it so!”
or
“Hey author, from the description in your story, I want this NPC to identify as female, make it so!”
Yes you are. You want to be able to determine NPC genders.
You cite how games allow you to choose RO gender, and you want to extend that to every other NPC in a game which uses they/them in the singular.
I understand this; you want the ability to change those NPC characters in your play session to align with your views on they/them singular use.
You still are saying … “Hey author, from the description in your story, I believe this NPC should be male… make it so!”
or
“Hey author, from the description in your story, I want this NPC to identify as female, make it so!”
Nope I’m saying in this product I’m paying for this option helps me enjoy it more, isn’t customer satisfaction key anymore?
BTW this would be an option for a single player. For example in my playthrough the NPC might have a binary gender but in another person’s playthrough of the same game that same NPC Would be regarded as genderless.
Am not an expert on choicescript but surely this could be achieved with a simple variable
this product you refer to is still tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of words of fiction. it’s a creative endeavor resulting in a creation.
I do think that your main question hasnt been addressed though. Are you looking for how to code a gender swappable NPC (how to format the choice that determines the gender they’ll be for the reading)? It was a little hard to discern if that was your main question because it was surrounded by complaints about gender neutral pronouns being political and taking you out of immersion.
(whiiiich, if you hate thinking about politics just because a fictional character is referred to as “they” in an IF, oh man! if only you knew the turmoil that is thinking about politics every single time someone purposely avoids your pronouns or goes out of their way to misgender you! but yeah singular they/them is totally some new-fangled political stuff.
Who even came up with that stuff? I feel like THEY have some 'splainin to do…
but yeah, it’s super easy to have gender be a player choice for an NPC. I gotta leave the office now but I’ll edit later with the code I use. and I’m sure there’s at least a couple threads addressing exactly that, anyone can drop a link before i embarrass myself with my ugly code!!
*welp, looks like there’s no need for my code since I misinterpreted what they meant. lol, “they.” cause I don’t know their gender see how easy it is
see how easy it is