A Matter of Respect: Gender-Neutral Pronoun Guide and Discussion

kckolbe · 2019-12-10T03:55:28.580Z

Eiwynn:

When someone is referred to with the wrong pronoun, it can make them feel disrespected, invalidated, dismissed, alienated, or dysphoric (often all the above.) Avoiding these ills where we are able to is part of being a responsible member of this community.

I do agree with this, and I want to make it clear that when someone prefers “they”, I don’t force another pronoun on that person. Instead I dance around it by using “that person,” “one”, the character name/username as applicable. Societies require compromise, after all. But I really hope someone who prefers they in their writing reads this and reconsiders, because a NB pronoun has a much better chance of surviving and making it into common usage if it is something that doesn’t create as many problems as it solves.

AChubbyBlackCat · 2019-12-10T04:05:32.023Z

Thanks for that! Now if you’ll excuse me while I watch hours of Khan Academy and review grammar rules~

trevers17 · 2019-12-10T04:22:36.710Z

Singular they operates the same as plural they grammatically, so it’s really not that hard to pick up. It’s just a matter of wanting to do it.

kckolbe · 2019-12-10T04:25:56.700Z

For me, the fact that they are the same grammatically makes it harder.

“They walk to the car.”

“They walks to the car”

The latter is obviously singular, and if it were used that way, I’d have less trouble picking it up. Also, and I hate playing this card…I am autistic. I am prone to misinterpretation without such complications. So I feel your claim, while likely true for you, just isn’t reality for me. I genuinely struggle with it.

trevers17 · 2019-12-10T04:28:59.435Z

Autism troubles is something that people will probably (hopefully) be more understanding about. I think people might be more forgiving if they know you’re at least making an effort to respect their pronouns, even if using them causes you trouble when speaking. Then again, I can’t speak to that experience directly.

hgbird · 2019-12-10T04:56:47.714Z

kckolbe:

Instead I dance around it by using “that person,” “one”, the character name/username as applicable.

While this may not be classically what we consider to be misgendering, I do think it’s important to note that refusing to use someone’s pronouns—even if you’re not using ones that will blatantly misgender them—is also a form of disrespect. I’ve had it happen before, and when you notice someone’s deliberately avoiding your pronouns entirely (whether that be because they disagree with singular they/them or because they “disagree” with your gender but don’t want to blatantly be transphobic about it), it doesn’t feel good. It makes you feel othered.

And it’s also like… singular they is commonly used to address someone whose gender is unknown. As others have mentioned, it’s not new grammatically. It may be difficult to learn, for whatever reason, but I think we owe it to people to try.

My sister is autistic, and she struggled for awhile with my pronouns because the singular they usage tripped her up, but now, she uses they/them for me without fail—even despite the fact that I also go by binary pronouns. And that makes me feel absolutely loved, knowing that she worked at something that was difficult for her so that she wouldn’t invalidate my identity and hurt me.

kckolbe · 2019-12-10T05:06:09.186Z

hgbird:

I’ve had it happen before, and when you notice someone’s deliberately avoiding your pronouns entirely (whether that be because they disagree with singular they/them or because they “disagree” with your gender but don’t want to blatantly be transphobic about it), it doesn’t feel good. It makes you feel othered

It’s a gesture. A step. It’s better than just using the pronouns I grew up with. This is how change is made, in increments. Does anyone think Don’t Ask Don’t Tell was a perfect answer to homosexuality in the military? Nope, but it lasted for about 20 years, a generation.

I’m not going to force myself to use something I think makes no sense. But I did take a step, and if that isn’t enough for you, if you aren’t willing to meet someone halfway and show some patience to society as we try to figure it out, then I’m not going to let you tell me I’m not good enough. Feel bothered. But ONE of us made an effort.

HomingPidgeon · 2019-12-10T05:11:45.317Z

kckolbe:

I genuinely struggle with it.

I’m very sorry that this is something you have trouble with. But you say above that “no one person has the right to change a society’s view and use of a word,” and on the same token, no one person has the right to prevent society’s view and usage of a word from changing. It isn’t just one person using they/them as a singular, it’s a lot of people, and I sympathize with the fact that sometimes language develops in ways individuals don’t like, but language develops regardless. (Leaving aside that English language already has a proud history of words with multiple, even contradictory meanings.) I understand that it’s a concept you’re having trouble with–it’s one that’s tripped up plenty of people–but I promise, you saying that you find singular they ungrammatical isn’t going to change any nonbinary person’s mind about what pronoun to use. We aren’t deciding to go by singular they because we haven’t considered other options–we have, and for some of us, singular they is our best or only option.

It’s worth noting that for all the people arguing that nonbinary folks shouldn’t use singular they because it’s ungrammatical, as many people are arguing that neopronouns shouldn’t be used because they’re “made up”. No gender neutral pronoun is going to please everyone, so nonbinary people might as well use pronouns that please ourselves.

kckolbe · 2019-12-10T05:14:41.572Z

HomingPidgeon:

No gender neutral pronoun is going to please everyone, so nonbinary people might as well use pronouns that please ourselves.

And if we all do just what pleases ourselves, no one grows at all. Societies require compromise to last. Language requires demand to last.

HomingPidgeon · 2019-12-10T05:20:30.062Z

kckolbe:

Societies require compromise to last.

And as you say, you’ve found the compromise. It’s not using the pronouns of they/them individuals, and instead using their name or a descriptor. The thing about a compromise is it doesn’t please everyone–I agree with @hgbird that dodging pronouns isn’t the same as accepting pronouns, but I also agree with you that it’s a lot better than intentionally misgendering someone. No one is completely happy, no one is completely displeased. Compromise.

kckolbe:

Language requires demand to last.

There is demand. I don’t think you’d be so fervently arguing that language should change back if there wasn’t enough demand for it to be changing–which it is. Maybe not in a way you like, maybe not in a way you find understandable, but it’s changing nonetheless.

kckolbe · 2019-12-10T05:22:08.865Z

HomingPidgeon:

The thing about a compromise is it doesn’t please everyone–I agree with @hgbird that dodging pronouns isn’t the same as accepting pronouns, but I also agree with you that it’s a lot better than intentionally misgendering someone. No one is completely happy, no one is completely displeased. Compromise.

Wow. That is excellently said.

Eiwynn · 2019-12-10T05:25:15.503Z

This discussion is in danger of being derailed by circular argumentation. To avoid that: if you have already stated your position, please take a short break and allow others to share their perspective too. Please avoid repetitively hammering a single view without adding anything new.

Also - this is a gentle reminder to please keep conversations directed at the topic at hand and not at the individuals themselves. Focusing replies on the individuals themselves instead of the topic at hand can lead to friction between members and often causes the thread to derail.

Please respect all posters and their opinions, even those with less popular or liked viewpoints – you can disagree with their post without making your reply about them personally.

*Finally, if you see disrespectful posts please do not reply to them. Rather, please use the report feature and let forum staff deescalate friction.

I do not want to be forced into locking my own thread. Please do not force me to do so.

Kaelyn · 2019-12-10T05:39:23.571Z

Be careful not to learn German, we have a lot of words that mean two or even more different things. That makes it quite difficult for me to understand your argumentation. That is not meant as a critique, just something that was interesting for me. A short they Plural/singular example from German. They means “sie” in German, she means “sie” in German and a polite you in German is “sie” too. So naturally I so not struggle with they.

TSSL · 2019-12-10T05:41:40.931Z

It is worth noting that there’s nothing inherent about there having to be pronoun number agreement or even a number distinction at all. As others noted, this happened to the word “you,” which was originally only plural and still takes plural agreement; most of us now say “you were” and “you are” instead of “thou wast” and “thou art,” while “you was” and “you is” are not standard English (though there are some who speak that way). French turned a second plural pronoun, “vous,” into both plural and formal singular. Spanish “usted” is singular, but despite being a second person pronoun, takes third person endings. Languages develop through an accumulation of historical change, which is not bound to follow rigid patterns, but there is almost always a historical background to it.

And, well, in Chinese (this goes back before the Chinese languages split), the first person singular came from a word that was originally always plural. This eventually led to a long period in which the same pronoun was used for both the singular and plural, which was also true in the second and third persons. Lots of languages don’t make number distinctions in pronouns. They still manage to communicate; context is a wonderful thing.

And when people say singular they has been used for centuries, this really is true. It didn’t fall out of use and come back; it has been in continual use through Shakespeare and Austen to now. The only thing that happened was certain prescriptivist grammarians made a claim in their grammars that singular they was wrong because they personally deemed it illogical. But this was not something that came from the English language! This was imposed, not at all based on usage.

But even if it were a completely new and invented phenomenon, which it is not, that wouldn’t matter. Language exists to communicate, to inquire, to express oneself, to be beautiful, and to cooperate with one another. It is only good insofar as it is helpful, useful, and benefits people. If people will be happier, feel better, and be more respected and validated when we use language in a certain way, that in itself is reason enough to do so. Artificially imposed constraints, no matter how self-consistent, are not more important than treating people kindly.

I understand that you’re struggling with this, but I hope this will help illustrate the background and context of singular they.

WaywardBall · 2019-12-10T14:32:20.555Z

Just thought I’d leave this here out of relevancy. https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/word-of-the-year/they

Havenstone · 2019-12-11T12:47:03.275Z

I was reading down the thread thinking of things to say, and then saw a @TSSL post and thought, “Ok, everything I was going to say will be here.” And indeed it was.

Shoelip · 2019-12-11T14:30:09.256Z

Sorry if this has been mentioned already but what do these pronouns mean? Like, we have masculine and feminine pronouns, he and she, and then gender neutral they. What do all those other words mean?

Brian_Rushton · 2019-12-11T16:17:05.241Z

From the Wikipedia article on Spivak pronouns, an example of other pronouns (I’ve left in the footnotes):

In online anonymous situations, Spivak and other gender neutral pronouns can be motivated by avoiding gendered speech that would make divisions in the social group more likely and the group possibly less productive or enjoyable.[17] This contact with genderless pronouns in virtual communities is sometimes a person’s first experience and experimentation with presenting their gender in a genderqueer or transgender manner.[18] Furthermore, the pronouns have been adopted by some to mean not only an unknown gendered hypothetical person as Spivak uses it,[19] but a non-binary identity indicating a known person.

Shoelip · 2019-12-11T17:20:55.986Z

This article says that they’re gender neutral pronouns like they… But not what any of them actually mean as opposed to “they.”

sviyagin · 2019-12-11T17:33:42.799Z

TSSL:

The only thing that happened was certain prescriptivist grammarians made a claim in their grammars that singular they was wrong because they personally deemed it illogical. But this was not something that came from the English language! This was imposed, not at all based on usage.

I also want to add that people often use grammar as a gatekeeping tool to prevent the “wrong kind of people” from participating. Like you said, language is about communicating with each other, and policing grammar often has the consequence (intended or otherwise) of excluding minority and/or disadvantaged groups.

Singular they is an established structure, and as far as grammar matters, it’s “grammatically correct.” But even if it wasn’t, we shouldn’t feel obligated to embrace the arbitrary and often exclusionary “rules” of grammar. As Captain Barbossa would say, they’re more like guidelines anyway.