A Mage Reborn, Book Two (WIP) - UPDATED April 5th, 2025 | Book One Released!

He made his choice as a king, so any kind of friendship/relationship in the future ended for me at that moment.

You see it that way because you’re using the logic of our world, which honestly doesn’t apply 100% in a world where there’s magic. Besides, I don’t see any personal gain the mage would get considering that he didn’t even accept the offer to work together with him.

And the mage almost died many times during the war for using his phantasm repeatedly, so saying that he deserves to be beaten and all for what he did but not taking into account that he won the war for Param, well, I guess when someone does something wrong, everyone forgets all the good they did and how they helped.

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With that in mind, would your MC rather spend an entire week with Ante, or eat a full course of Leon’s cooking for a day?

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Tough choice. I think I would prefer to spend a week with Ante.

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I mean, spending time can include a lot of things… Like maybe a little bit of magical torture, I’m just saying.

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I mean magic isn’t super common to even really know about fine details about it (it’s not like we a mage knew about mind control) and the culprit is months dead at that point. And even supposing magic is taken into account, the first thought is post mortem mind control which at that point I’d still execute you because you’re untrustworthy, just maybe a less brutal one than staked and burned.

I mean yeah if something is extreme then yeah. It’s why we label things unforgivable.

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i hope i’m not just retreading old ground, i want to explain what i meant by “leon didn’t trust mc even before saintess-gate” bc i think it’s a fun discussion. to me, the question of the whole dungeon sequence is if ilya and saine wholeheartedly believe the mc had to have had a reason for what they did even if they can’t/won’t say, why is leon not willing to entertain that idea?

the pressure of being king is a part of that for sure, but i don’t think it’s the whole story. to his credit, i don’t think leon is someone who can be pressured into executing someone he doesn’t believe is guilty. i think he believes mc is guilty while saine and ilya don’t bc of just what you said: it confirmed a suspicion that had already quietly sunk into the foundation of their relationship.

i don’t think he realizes that mistrust is there until his faith gets tested. but the line “all the times ante reported you for your suspicious behavior, urged me to stop you, i ignored every single warning!” combined with his lack of hesitation compared to the other white fangs strikes me as though he is having an “I KNEW IT!” moment. in the back of his mind, he thought something was off about mc, and killing the saintess confirms that belief.

apologies if this is repetitive! i don’t think i have seen this line of reasoning discussed here much, but i could be wrong.

edit: i should clarify that i don’t condemn leon for having that suspicion! considering how many people must have pushed him on that, he would have to be a much better friend than me to disregard them completely.

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IIRC you got it right on the head of the nail. He admits as much in the interlude when talking with Saine. He admits that his brother’s suspicion (the previous king) spoiled the image of the MC as he was right that the MC being a talented mage with a hidden background is suspicious as could be. This compounded with the fact the Mc’s sister killed his brother and Ante’s suspicions towards the MC continued to poison his perception. Then when it all comes to a head and he asks straight on for an answer of some kind, the MC can’t provide one and all the suspicion is confirmed for him at that moment.

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Maybe I’ll try that route. My MC does love the guy, but she was still reeling over Leon murdering her and was attracted to F.

You know, I did a speed run last night in an attempt to find the section where F and the MC share the kiss and F tells the MC they’d prefer the MC was dead instead of sister… and couldn’t find it. I don’t know if it was part of the alpha and got removed or what, but I do remember playing and don’t think I’m suffering from the Mandela effect!

What I did realize, though, is that one reason I–as a reader–can never forgive Leon and will always want him to suffer and die is how he handled the Ante situation.

In his POV, we get to see him all remorseful and sad, spouting his love for the romanced MC, yet he chose to let Ante–the one who set out to destroy the MC from day fucking ONE–live. He even thinks that he could’ve had her executed and chose not to do so, now taking full responsibility for believing her lies. And that is just something I can’t forgive or forget. When my MC finds out he knows the truth and that he knows Ante intentionally lied and was out to get the MC but Leon chose to let her live instead of letting her pay the price for her plotting and poisonous lies, she’ll feel the same. So, yeah… fuck both of them. They need to die. Painfully.

Also, whether the dipshit realizes it or not, Ante will just be out to get the MC again when she realizes they’re alive. And Leon will be back in a position to believe her bullshit to repeat this cycle. Ante will never stop coming after the MC, and she clearly has no regret about what she did. She’s a vile bitch.

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I think the biggest thing people possible hate about Leon is that he was rather wishy washy with his goals. Leon had a mindset of wanting to be like his brother and be a great king everyone would love when he would have to take place as king. The thing that stings the most with our MC being in a sense of betray would be how Leon was the very first person MC met as from Aunt Bess that MC got to know on a personal level along with Saine and Ilya. Leon was the one that end up not judging your character right off the bat and even saw your actions to save their healer and even went as far to save those kids from thieves. Whether you ended up friends or lovers he had time to know MC before getting to the castle.

When the gang gets to the castle and meet Julian, sure he didn’t trust MC but didn’t outright put you on the chopping block but made it clear he didn’t trust you even if his brothers did, to get to the point where the gang had to go find a cure in a village as another notion where they went and this was another moment for the MC to be able to do something about, even Ilya say at some point how reckless MC can be when it comes to helping and how it could get them killed, this could be a huge indicator of 2 things that could have gone on in Leon’s head is that the MC is caring and willing to put their life on the line for people just like how he and his gang does but this could also have the same impact of giving later on the problem of making Leon think that MC is capable of going so far to reach a goal that it kills them could be dangerous especially since MC sister ended up being the homewrecker when Julian gets killed

Leon as heated in his emotions as he is always do before he thinks so it can be a little impulsive on his part later down the road. Now the biggest thing here that made it break my heart the most is when the MC bled their heart out to the gang about their sister and the things they went through and even gave information to help the cause for them, this here was the biggest thing that made me sad about Leon’s swift decisions later in the story. Leon didn’t have full trust in himself and even worse didn’t have trust in the actions of recruiting the MC and everything started to blur at this moment for him, in his position he possibly would start blaming himself for even letting the MC join because the MC sister killed his brother, the MC could go off the deep end and destroy them, he started to feel like he was to blame for his brother’s death, he wanted to live up to society standards of being like his brother so he blinded himself as wanting to make things right for his people…so many heated emotions and guilty set in and even worse knowing the trust he put in his friend or love with MC is shaken because of his inferiority complex of trying to be someone he was not in the end.

Saine didn’t have a strong connection with Julian like Leon did and for the right reasons because Saine was a rather smart cookie and even he could have had another role rather than just a prince to be sent off in marriage so he felt overlooked and no position to be king and made it feel like he didn’t get his right position to fit in other than forced to do something he didn’t want to do, Leon even saw Saine’s worth and on a certain level another sense of feeling less than Saine because of how smart he is, granted Leon being clueless is a bit of a running gag but it does show how it all led up to it.

When it came to the battle for Param was another hurtful thing because of Ante, Ante was doing her job but at the same time given our Leon friend here he ended up making assumptions and taking her words only instead of weighing the options later as I said he seems very impulsive with stuff. Leon seemed to have some anxiety from knowing that the battle is almost over and he’ll have to take the throne afterwards and as I said he’s already rattled at that feeling of wanting to be like Julian and live up to the expectation from the pressure of people seeing how he’d lead, sure Leon can fight but he isn’t the most articulate when it comes to leading and the paperwork given how he lounges around rather than study up like Saine(let’s be honest Saine literal jacks of all trades here, dude had goals and was totally overlooked by his older brother).

MC is left rattled too because they have to face the dreadful fear of their sister and yeah telling the gang about her was honest but also the noose around their neck because they too made it a responsibility of her actions being their fault too so another reason why they bled their heart out eve though that also put a lack of trust given how long they stayed around the gang so Leon thinking 'why would you hold this important information from us!?!" is justified yet even knowing someone for a while doesn’t mean that everyone spill secrets from knowing them for a while so MC could have kept the secret and ended up having it exposed some other way or ripped the bandage off and tell them so they did and in a sense that should have brought but trust and distrust at the same time, Ilya and Saine possibly saw more good out of MC from their actions while Leon started his decline from his own mind blowing, Ilya has respect for MC for saving her life and willing to save kids even an impairment for them if gone through that, fought with them in the battle, and helped with the curse problem when MC could have sat and done nothing. Saine saw the same thing and even was seen and valued by the MC and not just some little prince, go through his route and he even bleeds his heart out himself and wants to be something more than just another cog to be depressed and having no purpose other than connections.

After the battle with sister the MC had to suffer with the note of another disaster that would have befell them…bad enough MC was least liked in the beginning by the people in the country and blatantly can see that from when they become retainer, MC was just that random foreigner in their country and whether word spread about MC’s sister or not is left in the air but the actions of the MC’s magic definitely could have raised eyebrows and threw distrust in the mix, so MC had to deal with the feeling of being ostracized and it never feels good knowing you worked so hard to just want a peaceful life from living a nightmare only to be pushed into a role once more into having to fix a mess that seemed to be on the MC.MC went on to comfort their friends and even say they may come back to see them even though they weren’t sure and when you talked to your chosen route mainly if you chose Leon then you could have had the option to not belittle him and even tell him to rule as himself and not as his brother, the MC could even see that he was grasping at who he was other than the emotional brute so this leaves a huge impression on him but still doubt never leaves that easy since it has built up for a long while. MC goes and find out where the source of destruction will happen and goes back to trauma land and learns of the Saintess the very person Ilya wants to be and comes to realize they have to kill the Saintess…a huge impact on this countries functioning so it just added to that noose but I guess MC thought they would have had made it anyways even if they did succeed given their do or die actions. So they get there and Ante is in the way, MC can have a choice to tell her to move yet she doesn’t and in right she should have given our MC rank yet she disobeyed this rule even if it would have been wrong on Ante’s part on failing to protect the Saintess but the MC being denied to enter already planted the truth that MC didn’t truly belong in the first place and they couldn’t even have access even with their rank so the MC did what they had to do, in the end I am surprised that Ante didn’t take the heat for disobeying someone of status even if MC was in the wrong so Ante’s say shouldn’t have held any weight given the fact on that alone, now would be different if MC came in full throttle lashing out. Poor MC had to suffer through so much only to be ousted by the people from their distrust before it even began for them, none really respected the MC and directed the pain to MC for being to blame not only as Leon’s shameful retainer but also as some foreigner bring doom and gloom to them. To add to the wound even more the MC’s friend or lover status with Leon hurts so much because all that they bonded over was thrown down the drain long ago when Julian’s death happen and what broke the horse’s back was now the MC not telling him the truth…Leon stuck with the words of a nobody spymaster and the pressure of his people wanting someone to blame in the end and what better way than place the MC because they’re to powerful to handle, to determined and might backstab us like now until their dying breath to destroy us, and even the weight of trying to redeem himself for all the faults of recruiting the MC, bring despair of the king dying, his actions of putting trust in someone he feels might betray him and his people, him wanting to live up to be something similar to his brother, the weight of having to kill someone he thought as a lover or friend, the weight of having to be disliked by the people or even his gang…he had a lot going on in his head and couldn’t be himself and somewhere on the way he didn’t even once heed the words of being himself if the MC told him this before leaving, it sucks because the Leon the MC knew was a broken man that didn’t even see himself and in some way the MC came to see this for themselves too because of how they went through, but it hurts that Leon didn’t try to even give a few days time to put on an investigation to find out because there had to be a reason, didn’t any of the actions before it led to killing the MC matter in the end, knowing that they bled their heart out and the trauma they had to face, to feel like no one was on their side when everyone in his country seen them as an ill omen, Leon was blinded by what his people wanted then and there and wanted someone to blame in the end, either Leon didn’t want to face the blame and find the truth of his friend/lover’s silence or he just couldn’t handle the fact of his mistakes and wanted MC killed as a way to fix the problem to be a decent king. His impulsive actions ended up hurting the people that trusted him on both sides in the end, the gang he led tried to plead with him only to be snubbed by his own guilt and impulsive thoughts of being like his brother, the people praising him later for fighting off the invaders including his friend/lover only to realize that the MC wasn’t the one at fault yet no one truly cared for the MC and just used them and pushed them aside like day old bread rather than see the MC’s actions as genuine in the end so adding a statue does make for an insult and a holiday because you’re celebrating a day you killed someone that saved you and none truly knew the MC it was like some horrid consolation prize for being the punching bag in the end even after being alienated by everyone except for Saine and Ilya which both wanted to find the truth and believe in the MC and even tried to get to know rather than crush underfoot with complete doubt. It hurts even more because they killed the MC in the worse possible way, not only letting them rot in a cage nearly starving with no magic and barely alive as is, it’s torture being alone with one’s own mind and slowly dying from it crushing you from the weight of loneliness but to have to face one last face of a friend/lover look at you in rage, guilt, and pity all the same even worse a punch to the face if being the evil villain in that moment to realize the person you once knew wasn’t there anymore, to see someone you got to know end up looking at you like a person they didn’t know and looked so lost in the end, makes it worse if you end up kissing him and making him doubt himself more and end up hating himself later from the aftermath when the truth comes to light only to breakdown his mental state to utterly nothing leaving him hollow inside because his worst fears came to light and him seeing himself as a failure in the end on both sides as a king and friend/lover to MC and even his gang Saine and Ilya. Don’t get me wrong I’m mad and sad about the MC dying by Leon but a lot can be seen from how their mental states were which led to a sad outcome of lack of trust and communication only to be weighed down by their own mind from their actions. Kind of wish they didn’t kill the MC is such a slow and painful death though, being burned to death is no fast death and suffocating to death on top of it is overkill because suffocating is the equivalent to drowning you going to be strangled for a good few minutes maybe quicker if you panicking, brain damage is not good to have after a set amount of time and roasting on top of it, the MC was literally rotting in a prison dying both physically and mentally and overkill in burning to suffocation as a way to ease pain, no it was outright choking to death which is not an easy death, it takes a few minutes then pass out then roasted to pieces basically they would have roasted a dead body beforehand so it was just a cremation at that point especially if what was said about how they were trying to suffocate you before burning to death. I’d take getting my head chopped off than that, such a brutal way to die from the people and Leon approving it so fast without a trial I’d be scared but given if I was rotting from my own brain and hunger well probably would feel anything after a while even the MC was saying they wanted to rest, you can literally see how much the MC was dying mentally and wanted it to be over, to be isolated is torture itself and it does bring in its own can of worms to see the truth of reality for yourself when you stare at yourself from the weight of what has been done and I guess MC accepted in the end, everyone wants to be happy yet can’t bring that happiness to everyone because we all have to think for our own survival and to help someone you have to help yourself but this seems to have led to the MC being the one giving up so much so they did grow into seeing all the things they had to give up for people who only wanted to pass blame onto others rather than own up to it in the end even now knowing that statue being up does make me upset cause it represents just some guilt people don’t want to own up to for their faults, I wouldn’t want someone celebrating my death after saving you only to realize it’s a cop out to patch a wound for some so called justified death when they put their hand into it being that way. It made it all the more real to show that those people didn’t get the true meaning of that sacrifice MC did only caught up in their own delusions in to thinking some great hero died for them yet not taking responsibility especially when Leon had to push through with it, only person with the guilt ends up with Leon because he knew the MC, yet to blinded by his own shadow berating him for his own betrayal of doubt and taking in other people’s expectations so he could be great, he didn’t look to himself like he did before he was king. He did what he wanted in his own way even listened and even tried to be more open to his team when they had their opinions and took them into account so after a while Saine ended up ignored, Ilya ended up ignored, MC ended up ignored, all for people who didn’t know the full story and him wanting validation in the end without having the input to even put his own thoughts in the mix. :face_exhaling:

Love the writing and angst in the first book for sure but geez my poor poor MC got to go through more shallow people not seeing them for who they are and not from always what they want from MC. I can agree that I wish we could go on an island and live away from the chaos cause it feels like a bunch a babies running around pointing fingers to blame and wanting power while innocent lives are being tossed around like a mixed salad or somehow our MC can build our own posse of people and say “No more to this farce we’re carving out our own path whether any of you like it or not! We’re tired of being the punching bag and the tool for all to use and toss away!”. Never in my life have I ever want to be the bad guy but given how people can push you to be the bad guy can be rather tempting because the wrongdoers where the bad guys first and foremost that would have led me to be a force to be dealt with…surprised the MC haven’t cracked and literally went insane, some serious will power, clearly the MC got some purpose or something because at the point people should have crumbled from so much but this come to show that those that don’t break clearly is someone they better watch because they can be something everyone fears the most, MC knows themselves and learn all the time and never blames but themselves and people don’t like it that the MC is strong but I don’t feel it’s just because of the strength of those special powers they have only but keeping them in their place as a game changer because of the strength they have mentally and they’re willing to use the MC but it’s only because they’re afraid and they’re creating more and more of a ‘monster’ later from all this stuff they are putting the MC through, so it feels like it will come full circle for someone…MC is a ticking time bomb themselves and people who don’t stick to them in knowing how they are then they’ll get blasted too. Karma will eventually get it’s just dues and I hope to get to see of what. :star_struck:

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i have always wondered about this! WHAT were the suspicious activities that ante was reporting to leon?? do you guys think she would straight up lie about it? bc i have absolutely no idea

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Probably just painting everything Mage did in a bad light? basically constantly harping on the Mage’s suspiciousness (being Mireil’s stepsister, strange magic, etc) to Leon?

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yeah, glad to see someone who agrees. Like getting angry at the inexplicable murder of someone close to him (the saintess) is understandable, but him punching you (especially considering how strong and what a master swordsman he is) in the face is really not acceptable in my opinion.

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What Anarore said. I’d rather spend a week with Ante than to eat Leon’s cooking for a day. And by the end of the week, Ante will be a completely unrecognisable pile of :skull_and_crossbones:

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I don’t see how killing a disabled saint is extreme when in a war, thousands were killed. Killing Illya, Leon, and Saine when the mage had the chance would have been unforgivable and it would have made much more sense if the mage was an enemy since Param would have fallen into chaos without an heir to the throne, let alone a saint and on a personal level, Illya was closer to the saint, and even she trusted the mage.

And magic in that world is extremely common; I don’t know where you got the idea that it’s not. During the war, magic was used in battles, and the final opponent of the mage controlled an entire kingdom with her magic. So I don’t see how anyone wouldn’t have realized what was happening, apart from Saine and Illya.

So you’re saying that a saint who was under the control of the mage that manipulated the rival kingdom to start a war is more trustworthy than the mc? Considering that’s the very act you find unforgivable, killing that person.

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Their particular brand of magic is uncommon. Given that their people was nearly exterminated. And on a general note magic isn’t something everyone uses.

The saint to everyone has just been dying in her cell. So it’s not even a matter of trust. We offered none besides lip services at that point. Plus I was saying from their consideration the mage is a sleeper agent at that point.

If being killed isn’t extreme because people die every day, then you shouldn’t be all grouchy about your own death right?

Hmm yes I would think sneaking in a place to kill a innocent disabled person is unforgivable and worthy of anger. Sure close betrayal is normally considered worse but regardless where you stand on that one doesn’t invalidate the other. Also killing the saint unironically is a lot of betrayal anyway given our relationship to Leon and Illya.

Besides if we’re accounting for magic then it doesn’t take much to make sense. Like the big obvious one is if you practice spiritism. I’d imagine most people’d think you’d want a dead saint.

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What you’re saying doesn’t make sense considering that not all mages practice spiritism; it depends on each player as that was my lowest stat in one of my saves.

If you believe that a person who was under the enemy’s control for years to the point where they left her in the state she was in can’t be more of a sleeper agent than the MC, then so be it.

I don’t see your point here. We’re not talking about people dying every day; we’re talking about Leon and the MC killing thousands themselves, so I still don’t see how killing one more person is extreme.

I don’t see why you mention Illya in this sentence, considering that she trusted the MC, so she didn’t see it as a betrayal. Instead, she used her brain to understand that the MC wouldn’t gain anything from a suicidal mission to kill a saint who was in a vegetative state. It would be more logical to think that even if that were their objective, they would have made a plan to kill her later, one where they wouldn’t be captured.

Considering that the people who exterminated them were the past King of Param and that the church stole their magic, I would consider that they should have information about what they could do in the past, but that may have been lost in history. We’ll leave it in doubt.

In some scenarios, we could say that we were innocent and that everything we did was for the good of Param, so it was a matter of trust. Now, if Leon made the decision as King, that’s another point, but it also means that any future personal relationship, whether friendship or lovers, doesn’t make sense since a king doesn’t have friends, only allies. But considering that he hit the MC in some scenarios, I’d say he made the decision on a personal level more than anything.

She wasn’t dying; again, she was like she was in her own world or in a vegetative state, so she could have even been a sleeper agent, as you say.

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i don’t care what anyone says, everyone should get to take their turn doing leon discourse in here. let it all out

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I did say if. Besides what you do and what people think you do are completely different. And that was just the major example anyway. Given literally magic is involved any number of excuses could work.

Given that one has been locked away and incapacitated, and the other one suddenly murdered the other one, even fighting other people to do it, it’s the obvious answer. One that has truth to it given that we were being controlled, just differently, not being able to tell someone as opposed to the murdery kind.

And so the mc dying isn’t extreme. Given that the kingdom and Leon has killed so many. It follows those moral guidelines right?

If we’re going by a hypothetical of the mc was genuinely controlled or genuinely willy nilly killed the saint then it would be a major betrayal given the saints position to Illya who looked up to her and Leon who’s position in life is affected by this. Illya doesn’t really have a good reason to trust us but does so anyways as she got proof after. Sure she and Saines did exceptional but not the standard to put on everyone.

Without explaining why. Which is lip service. And makes you seem manipulative. And manipulative people deserve it.

Besides that having a relationship with Leon isn’t relevant in this for me. Any reason is reason enough to break it off, dying especially so. Besides kings do have friends favorites yada. I’m just arguing he didn’t do bad rather than he deserves a 2nd chance or anything like that

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How Leon’s position in life is affected by this? It would affect Illya more than Leon since she would inherit the position. The death of the saint doesn’t affect Leon in any way in this regard, as I don’t even recall any dialogue or anything that mentioned they were close, and his role as a king wouldn’t be affected either since Illya would take on the role of the saint.

Illya had a good reason to trust the mage since she saw his character from the beginning and knew that he wasn’t foolish enough to embark on a suicidal mission like that without any reason when he could do even more damage in the long run if he wanted to.

Exactly, sticking to this moral guide, being personally upset because your friend kills one more person when you’ve done the same is being hypocritical.

Again, this world has magic, and if they’re not going to explore a single possibility, then it’s a decision they made, and regretting that decision when they didn’t even try to find the truth is unforgivable from my point of view, just like what the mage did is unforgivable from your point of view.

Considering that one was inside the kingdom as you say, incapacitated, but if she was a sleeper agent, she could wake up at the right moment to ruin everything for Param or the hero of Param who suddenly appears to kill that person, even giving their life, considering it was obvious that it was a one-way trip based on the state they found him. It’s hard to tell who has a higher likelihood of being a sleeper agent, right?

Yes, given that magic is involved, there could be many possibilities, but they didn’t bother to explore any possibility out of consideration for the hero of Param.

If he hadn’t done anything wrong, why wouldn’t he have a chance at a second opportunity then? or why would he be repenting for his decision?
He himself knows that he did something wrong or he himself considers it that way.
Why would I give another chance to a King who used the mage as a tool in the war and discarded him at the first opportunity, just to do the same thing again? In the best case scenario, each one should go their separate ways and be done with it.

They literally have a diary that could be crucial evidence if they bothered to open it, but they rushed to execute him without even considering it. Besides, the logic of our world has nothing to do with one where magic exists, and even if it did, no fair trial is resolved so quickly without analyzing possible evidence, which in this case was the diary.

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Oh I would totally consider the one leading a suicide mission to kill a saint to have been a much likelier target.
Nevermind we were the last person to see the woman who captured the saint. Especially as we didn’t interact with the saint, after her capture, beforehand minus the initial rescue.

We’re Leon’s buddy, Leon’s king, out actions reflect on him. Nvm people politics in general as she’s an important figure.

Great we can all forgive each other. Since death is of no consequence. :smile:

Isn’t that the sleeper agent discussion. If the possibility is that we were compelled to do it. Then we are not to be trusted. Especially since we literally cannot explain any of the greater stuff. They wouldn’t even know where to start looking for proof, and that’s a legal precedent that would lead to some long court hearings

“Your honor the defendant has not admitted to anything despite being seen in the act, we should postpone judgement as we suspect magic”