Why are there so many HGs genderlocked to male?

Game Development
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Personally as a historian with a Master’s Thesis I find it a bit of a bore that people justify their lack of gender options as something “historically accurate”. History has been written by white men in power and it has not been in their interest to portray (for example) women doing anything considered masculine at that time. It doesn’t mean these women do not exist.

For example there’s been multiple female humanist writers in Renaissance (eg. Laura Cereta and Christine de Pizan) but they’ve been actively tried to be made forgotten by men in power who do not think that these women should’ve written in the first place. Female gladiators in Ancient Rome fought in Colosseum and women wrote books and poems just as men did. Usually these books from the ancient times just haven’t survived to our time because they haven’t been copied and preserved.

In portraying history as something purely white and masculine where women were tied to their home with no means to do anything else, one is catering to a thousand years old tradition of making the history available only for the male audience from male point of view. Ofc there are different factors as to why someone would write solely from male perspective but I’m talking about the historical accuracy factor, which is sometimes thrown around as a poor excuse.

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I misread this as saying the T Rex was wearing high heels :laughing: :t_rex::high_heel:

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@TSSL

trex

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The other major problem with the historical accuracy argument as a reason not have female protagonists is that the stories we make into video games are almost always about exceptional people.

Yes it is unlikely that a humble blacksmith’s daughter would rise up to a position of power and influence in a medieval world. It’s also highly unlikely that the blacksmith’s son would do any better!

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I would like to go back to this point:

There is always a point in allowing gender choice in any game that ever uses third person pronouns or any other gendered language to refer to the protagonist. Think of it this way: no matter what, someone is making a gender choice for the protagonist. The question then is whether the choice is in the hands of the author or the player… and if it’s not a major difference to the story, why should the author keep the choice from them?

I saw someone note that it’s quite similar to letting the player choose the main character’s name (I forget who said that or I’d credit the post)… which, yeah, I’m not seeing anybody argue that you shouldn’t include a name choice in a game unless it’s going to change the plot, so clearly it is possible for there to be choices that are reasonable to include without having such a big impact.

If it means something to the player, it’s meaningful.

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lol now that is something i would watch :joy::joy::joy::rofl:

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How is Lara Croft weak in the new Tomb Raider games?

As for the topic, I’m fine with set male (or female, though that’s far more rare) protagonists pretty much everywhere except in IF, because in IF it can be as simple as just changing one variable. You can of course make it more complicated, but it doesn’t have to be that complicated. I’ll make exceptions for games where it really wouldn’t make sense to have the option, say in a game where you’re following an actual historical figure or something who happened to be male, or something along those lines. But that’s rarely the case.

It’s an instant dealbreaker though if I’m told female soldiers for example weren’t a thing, but the RO is… A female soldier because the author liked the trope of the “woman who can kick my ass” so she’s the exception. I’d just spend the entire game wondering why my character couldn’t just be the other exception then. :joy:

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I get your point but there has been real life women who have exiled in a mans world i hate using that phrase mans world but it is somewhat true joan of arc and im sure there would be women soldiers back then who got written out of history men are typically the ones writing history doesnt mean there typically always the exceptional people but again you are right in saying its highly unlikely so i dont dissagree but i do think that the rule on historical accuracy can be bent a little bit in video games movies and books so theres no stopping authors in adding a female protagionist to there story to make readers/players happpy

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not to mention historical accuracy sucks if it was around i would be bombarded with racism in video games set in the past as i typically try to make my avatar black as i am black i would also be limited to what i can do in the world of the game i was in

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Ah yeah, should have; I’m more than a bit out of sorts today and rather rambly. So I actually had gone on for pages in a spoiler and rewrote it. Honestly I’d have picked out a lot of other examples to avoid that issue but none of them are quite as perfect; Madoka was the only one where I felt ironclad sure I could convincingly say none of the standard issues apply across the board by just explaining the plot more. So I tried to explain it in vague enough terms to make my point while skipping the key spoilers. Went a bit far in the second post, hopefully tags fixed it.

Then I assumed you posted the article link in reference to my description of the Mami-Homura fight so I added context. My other examples I think are net pretty good but there are some bits where I think they’re negatively influenced by the listed issues. Then again the article does list Evangelion as a good example and I’d skip Mari and Rei on eye-candy grounds (Asuka is marginal; plugsuits are exactly on the line between eye candy and form-fitting for entirely valid reasons). I guess the lesson is it’s hard to make a checklist to perfectly distinguish good and bad writing.

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I find the historical accuracy argument to be pick-and-choose by it’s very nature. Whether you’re writing about a Roman military campaign in a historical paper, or writing from the POV of a legionary in a fictional story, you are ultimately writing for you and your contemporaries, and from and for the time in which you live.

I also think that even if the choice itself is not meaningful to the player at first, it may become so during their time as that character, and as that character becomes more real to them.

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I love history, I really do, and with this said, CoG is not the place to be historical accurate. If you want accuracy so much that having the option to be female, or gay, or not-white makes you feel so upset, then go and watch a documentary, or read historical texts of the periods you are so passionate about, and leave your love for accuracy on that side.

And if you want to write something that have historical references, that is cool, but I find that a lot of people just wants to use the historical accuracy for what benefits them. Like, have a medieval setting game with a female knight? Oh gosh, that is so inaccurate!! But then they don’t want the accuracy of how the MC would likely die very young without proper medicine if they needed antibiotics at some point.

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This is actually one of my favorite topics, historical accuracy. As an aspiring novelist myself, I’d love to be able to produce as historically accurate fiction as I can. I’d love to teach the reader new things about a time period that is fairly unknown to them. However, I don’t have to play solely by the rules set by historical narrative. As a creator, I can decide new rules within my chosen time period. What if X happens, could it change things for Y, why and how.

It’s downright ridiculous that historical games/books/movies that have fantasy in them, try to play the historical accuracy card. So there are dragons and magic but women can’t fight? Riiiiight.

But I digress, I’ve almost wandered away from the main topic with my history nerd rant.

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Actually no, it was a general thing in relation to how female characters keep being portrayed, not looking at Madoka specifically :). I actually don’t have much of an an issue with the way they look/dress in that show as it’s very obviously a taking all the hallmarks of the typical magical girl theme, then twisting it into something very different.

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I add another thing about the “historical accuracy/excuse for a male only character”. Isn’t it more interesting going with a female character instead of a male in a male-dominated culture? Is not even more engaging having this character break the rules even more than a male character would?

I don’t know, but from my point of view a character who actually break the rules all around, raising to power in a group where they should not even enter is much better than just one of the main group becaming more influent in the main group.

So, just as I would like to write a female protagonist in a male centric setting, I’d write a male protagonist in an amazonian culture, where men are good only for reproduction and little else (but if I was going to play such CG, I would still play a female protagonist just to be “on the other side” for once, and be the “main sex”.)

Just my own opinion.

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I concur with this opinion very strongly; what I don’t like is when it feels less like she’s breaking the rules and more that she holds up her MC credentials and everyone knows the rules don’t apply to her. Which is why I’m somewhat skeptical of the idea that everything should be gender choice* because it can specifically fail to account for the fact that Empress Irene’s story and Empress Theodora’s story are more interesting. The fact that the rules say women can’t be Emperor Of The Romans is why Irene burned out her son’s eyes. Allegedly in the very room where she gave birth to him; not sure if that’s from reliable sources.

To be more specific, I don’t think a game set in Justinian’s era should not have a female protagonist because it’s not plausible or have a female protagonist who is treated no differently. I think its climax should let you quote Empress Theodora’s speech to the war council during the Nikta Revolt word for word

"My lords, the present occasion is too serious to allow me to follow the convention that a woman should not speak in a man’s council. Those whose interests are threatened by extreme danger should think only of the wisest course of action, not of conventions.

In my opinion, flight is not the right course, even if it should bring us to safety. It is impossible for a person, having been born into this world, not to die; but for one who has reigned it is intolerable to be a fugitive. May I never be deprived of this purple robe, and may I never see the day when those who meet me do not call me empress.

If you wish to save yourself, my lord, there is no difficulty. We are rich; over there is the sea, and yonder are the ships. Yet reflect for a moment whether, when you have once escaped to a place of security, you would not gladly exchange such safety for death. As for me, I agree with the adage that the royal purple is the noblest shroud."

Context note: full-body purple clothing was a privilege exclusive to the imperial family.

Also, if you want to have a male protagonist, well, you could have this speech:

CHOICE OF BROADSIDES MODE GO!

My ladies, the present occasion is too serious to allow me to follow the convention that a man should not speak in a woman’s council. Those whose interests are threatened by extreme danger should think only of the wisest course of action, not of conventions.

In my opinion, flight is not the right course, even if it should bring us to safety. It is impossible for a person, having been born into this world, not to die; but for one who has reigned it is intolerable to be a fugitive. May I never be deprived of this purple robe, and may I never see the day when those who meet me do not call me emperor.

If you wish to save yourself, my lady, there is no difficulty. We are rich; over there is the sea, and yonder are the ships. Yet reflect for a moment whether, when you have once escaped to a place of security, you would not gladly exchange such safety for death. As for me, I agree with the adage that the royal purple is the noblest shroud.

And in Emperor Justinian’s story, you don’t give the speech, your spouse gives the speech, and you decide whether to listen.

*If you think of the Choice Of Broadsides option as making a male-locked game and a female-locked game that have been bundled together

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Heck, one of my more memorable CK2 stories is sort of playing a side character in a farm girl makes it big story; this was pre-conclave so only certain religions and cultures accepted women (GO CATHARS!) but I was playing the Byzantine Emperor and got the Joan Of Arc event chain, and people demanded I do something about having a peasant girl lead my armies. I looked at my choices, I looked at her 31 martial (20 is amazing) and I made my choice.

I raised her to nobility and bestowed on her the family name Gladius Christii, The Sword Of Christ and she led my armies into the holy land and italy to retake the Pentarchy, mend the Great Schism, and make me Emperor of the East and West.

And, you know, that story didn’t happen historically, but it could have. And there’s even an extra subtlety: she’s a woman, so people don’t think she could be Emperor, so I didn’t have to worry that all her military successes would make people think she’d be a better Emperor than me and revolt to replace me with her. That was a huge concern for Byzantine Emperors and their efforts to avoid it contributed to not successfully retaking Italy.

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This is actually exactly why I picked it; I rejected a ton of series that would not have the issue that everything is spoilers because I wanted to avoid anything where someone might complain about an eye candy scene because I’ve had way too many conversations like this:

Saber from Fate Stay Night is a perfect illustration that you can have a female knight just as long as you account for it properly; it even helps characterize her because (true name spoiler; if you don’t know it and plan to watch Fateverse go see Fate/Zero episode 1 then come back because I loved the reveal) she’s just straight up Arthuria Pendragon, daughter of Uther, head of the Round Table, the King Of Knights. She has always identified as female. You can ask her why she’s recorded as being male and she more or less says “Of course I would have preferred to live as a woman, but I was a mere child. Britain needed me to be a King, not a Queen. My duty was to Britain, not to myself.” And she means that; she has a chance to make any wish and it’s to change history so Britain had a better King. And the viewpoint character silently thinks that there could have been no better King and that was done in relatively few lines and some pronoun changes and it shapes the entire story, yet the original plan had been for a male Saber and that could have worked too.
Doesn’t she lose her second major fight and have to be saved by Shirou and this keeps repeating?
Well that’s because of complex magic reasons that boil down to Shirou sucks at being a wizard and Illya is an unstoppable doom wizard. Also Berserker is usually used to make a weak hero combat effective because it gives boosts but makes them difficult to control. Shirou’s Servant cannot beat Illya’s Berserker Hercules.
Yeah, but then she loses hard to that golden Archer and he’s got a weak master
Yeah that’s because he’s Gilgamesh and he has all of everyone’s super artifacts plus his own special sword that’s better than hers. The Sword Of Promised Victory is not a match for The Star Of Creation That Severed Heaven And Earth and her good magic artifact isn’t avaliable in those fights.
Doesn’t she get captured by the villain and chained up in a skimpy outfit and rescued by Shirou?
Well kinda, but really it’s Rin and Shirou and the big wins are Rin using her jewel stockpile to match a legendary witch from the Age Of The Gods in a sorcery duel until she can use her chinese martial arts to beat her opponent up, and the triumphant moment when Rin and Saber form a contract and all of Sabers stats rank up and basically it shows that if Rin had summoned her then they’d win the war outright in two days.
Why didn’t Rin summon her?
Complex metaphysical reasons
Well I still don’t like the scene and think it ruins the work
Fair enough

So I just don’t pick works where that’s a problem. Homura’s transformation scene is she moves her hand like she’s opening a curtain to start a play and her school uniform becomes her colors and her bracer flashes into existance. Which I think is perfect in every way. It changes from a middle school uniform* into a recolored middle school uniform with battle gear, and it’s quick and to the point because Homura doesn’t care for theatrics she just needs her gear.

Over in the favorite anime character thread I am gushing about a character I skipped because there are valid grounds to object to her transformation scene as eye candy. Her outfit is also a somewhat impractical dress, but that’s because it is a direct homage to Super Robot Wars’ Weissritter and if this was a mech show she would pilot the Weissritter.

Oh, also this is why I always use gender locked female hypotheticals; I figure there’s a plausible chance I’m missing something for any male viewpoint character, so I use female hypotheticals to support my position that it’s not about gender per se but about social expectations of gender by flipping the gender and expectations together.

*to shortcut this part, yes it’s highly plausible a Japanese middle school would mandate a uniform like this; if Homura doesn’t like it she will say “It can’t be helped” and put it on.

Oh, a concrete example of what I mean when I say it’s maybe not worth “just” changing pronouns; the game that made me coin this rule was Fate Extra, where the main character can be male (“Inferior Hakuno”)or female(“Superior Hakuno”) but I am pretty sure they wrote the male version and then did minimal work to make it technically support this. So if you pick Caster as your summoned ally she unfailingly refers to the MC, male or female, as “Husband”. Straight up, every few lines.

That’s not technically an error because… well tldr Caster wants to have an ideal storybook Japanese household where she is a dutiful wife, and she sees that she’s been summoned by a woman, and she thinks for a moment and decides “I am not going to be denied! She is my husband and I am her wife!” and, well,

rationale

her special and distinctive magic weapon is a hand mirror and specifically it is the one from the Three Sacred Treasures, which in Japan needs no explaination because everyone knows their story. The mirror is symbolic enough that I can’t tell you where the real one is because it’s IIRC actually classified and they’re only seen in public at coronations. Caster has it because it was hers until she gifted it to the first Japanese Emperor; technically you’ve summoned a weaker copy of a minor aspect but she’s still a big deal. So yeah her will shall not be defied.

But that and a bunch of other moments that each individually make sense add up to make me pretty sure that I’m “supposed” to play as Inferior Hakuno and screw that.

Why do I, the person who is supposed to self-insert as the male character, call him Inferior Hakuno when he was made to appeal to me? Because the creators see my demographic likes Fate/Stay Night where the viewpoint character is male and they think that matters to me. Uh, no, I mean Shirou’s not bad but I’m here for the blond girl in full plate mail squaring off with Hercules and Gilgamesh. My mom has a sticker of her on her work laptop for the same reasons I like Saber. So they take Shirou and they cut away the parts I like and they proudly present Inferior Hakuno and I say “hey look at Saber Red! Swapped the armor for a dress, boastfully arrogant, different sword, let’s see where this is going. Oh, that guy? He is there. Ooh, Saber Red calls him Praetor; assuming she’s not that Amazon warrior who fought in Turnus’s vanguard in the Aenead she’s probably a female alt version of a Roman Emperor? The guy? He holds a camera very well. Hey I hear Shiki Ryougi is your bonus boss. She is? Ooh, her “class” is Monster. That’s our Shiki all right.”

Then the female version initially is distinguished by the fact that I look at her character design and I don’t assume she’s a generic NPC. I’m not kidding. And then she’s in all the spinoff works that are silly so she gets to make funny jokes as opposed to being aggressively bland, and the publishers don’t realize that.

This came to a head in Fate Extra Last Encore where the intention is to have the female version fridged to set up the “real” protagonist I’ll like, and not to make me say “well I have to assume Superior Hakuno is off on the far side of the moon flirting with female Attila The Hun and can’t be bothered to deal with this” because that was a sentence that makes sense in context.

Then there was seriously a scene where ghost Superior Hakuno dropped in to tell Inferior Hakuno how much he sucked and she said everything I’d been thinking all show.

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732

Just beat this a few days ago and sunk well over 100 hrs into it. I love Kass as the protagonist and grown pretty attached to the character as a result. Spoiler ahead When she hands over the staff to Layla in Atlantis and dies after 2000 years of walking the earth, from one end to the other she said, fighting countless battles and watching the development of the human race, she is able to finally pass on the staff to a worthy successor. What really got me is when she collapsed to the floor saying a final prayer to Gaia in ancient Greek, she can now rejoin her family and you can see the life pass out of her. I had to try real hard not to tear up lol. Also male gamer btw. This has been my most favorite game in a long time, and I really hope they continue making games this way and improving upon it. I would love to see the next in Japan or a Scandinavian one.

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Well, I haven’t finish Odyssey, and took me a while to realise what you were talking about… fuck my life :joy: