I am a role player and one of my favourite things when I beta test is helping the author with balances choosing characters that aren’t made to win. For example, if your character was a noble fallen for grace in dela creme I made a character that had never made physical activity and is posh and not wants to do labour. I fail many checks but help authors to see if the game is fun and winnable with lower stats. is the game frustrating? There are doom loops that impede have a satisfying ending.
In many games, the bittersweet endings are far better than the WIN EVERYTHING. There are well written and connect better with the characters.
These are INTERACTIVE stories first and foremost, not Call of Duty.
In terms of “sucking”, it just really depends whether i’m willing to replay the game or not.
If the game interests me enough, i wouldn’t really mind failing a couple of times to get the choices i need/want for my personal “golden route”. And i normally play the game blind so figuring it out is part of fun i get when i start penning my character for that game.
(i have yet to net an ending where i’m able to have an upperhand over another character i spite without deviating much from my archetype.)
True, but sometimes failure or less optimal choices leads to death or being unable to progress. For example, in Gladiator: Road to the Colosseum I got stuck about halfway through because… my character kept dying. While “failing up” is a concept I’m familiar with, in certain games it just doesn’t exist! That makes sense, of course, because this is in a life or death situation. The same goes for Magikiras which was a game I enjoyed a lot but couldn’t complete because I can’t solve the puzzles. There’s no failing up there, you just can’t complete the game. While it could be argued this is bad writing (and that, of course, comes to subjective opinion- personally, I think it’s absolutely fine) you can still very well be bad at the game. Failing up is a good concept, I do love it when it’s applied to interactive fiction, and it does help separate IF games from linear story games, but ‘game over’ screens still exist within choice games.
Also, of course we don’t just want games to become novels, but regardless of what ends up happening there’s usually a route we end up going down/mostly sticking to in each playthrough. I got locked out of my favorite character’s romance path in The Soul Stone War because I missed one or two romance options. Personally, when I want to try to explore a specific route in game, I have to try it multiple times to get the right options. If I didn’t, I’d always end up with the same middle of the road average ending. It all comes down to personal preference, of course, but usually I find myself having to play through a game multiple times to access the scenes I really want to see.
Of course, personally, that’s just my two cents! I tend to be very goal orientated when I play games, and choice games are no exception. If I don’t unlock the routes I want, or don’t uncover some kind of new scene, or get my character killed when that wasn’t my intention, I feel like I’m bad at the game- which was what I was trying to express when I first made this thread, and see if anyone else felt that way. I understand not everyone plays games like that!
(edit: sorry if this seems all over the place, I looked over all your posts but just quoted this one bit in my response- also I just woke up ahaha.)
These days, I edit the startup file so my MC has max stats and max relationships. My MC is completely op but I just want to enjoy a game without getting stressed over failing and restarting over and over. These games aren’t multiplayer games so I’m not affecting anyone negatively. Other people have different ideas of having fun and may find the way I play boring. But I’m actually having fun playing this way so that’s what matters.
Normally, I give the game a play-through or two before I do this, but I’m right there with you a lot of times. Sometimes I want to see the most positive result, too.
I like how The Wayhaven Chronicles handles failure and “bad” choices. Note that sometimes choices will become increasingly weighted, like a domino effect; what may be an apparently good choice in Book One may become detrimental in Book Two, and so forth. This actually happened to me when I played Book Two for the first time, and I was both devastated and delighted. This isn’t a feature unique to series I bet, though I’ve never worked on any Choicescript games myself. Regardless, I like these kinds of checks the most. Plain stat checks are also done really well in this game, as there’s no real “failure” or “game over” (as Sera has explicitly promised herself). Everything exists to further the narrative, and I think a shrewd player can shape their character because of failure rather than in spite of it, like a phoenix rising from ashes in a way.
One of the things that frustrates me most about stat checks is when the author doesn’t make it clear which stat is being checked. For example, in Slammed! you can specialize in certain types of martial arts. I personally think it’s relatively clear throughout the story which choice while fighting corresponds to which stat, and this is especially crucial (and well handled) considering I know next to nothing about wrestling. Ironically, I think The Wayhaven Chronicles can also be one of the worst offenders of this. I like to play a tech oriented character; many of the “tech” choices are incredibly similar to the “deduction” choices. In the final section of Book One, The choice for the deduction skill used to defeat the Big Bad is, “There must be something around here that can help.” The tech choice is, “I just have to think harder about what’s happening to Murphy…” Perhaps I had a lapse in reading comprehension, but there’s nothing to indicate that “thinking harder” has ANYTHING to do with technology. Conversely, thinking harder seems like something I’d do specifically if I was trying to DEDUCE how to solve an issue. Needless to say, on my first play through I chose the “wrong” choice despite having a very high score in tech, and I was kind of livid, considering it was the climax.
So, it is incredibly frustrating to spend time creating your character in a certain image, reach a stat check knowing full well that you can pass it if you just click the option that corresponds with your highest stat (that you have actively raised), and then pick the wrong one and get a “bad” outcome simply because of unclear wording.
This isn’t a universal issue, and usually is handled in the editing phase, but it’s happened to me enough times that it’s made me question how checks should be written.
I also don’t like games that don’t give you the option to utilize your stats. For example, in Pendragon Rising (a game that I love endlessly), sometimes when you’re presented with choices that check stats, not every stat is available. So, if I spent the entire game focusing mostly on creating a cunning character, but I run into a check that only checks strength or people skills, then I feel frustrated. Maybe it’s more realistic this way, but I don’t like being forced into a contrived failure scenario. I had a very good narrative reason to focus on a cunning character, because it underscored the social differences between the very warrior-like society your MC lives in within the Pendragon Rising Universe, but instead of feeling like a smart badass, I feel like a plain dumbass because I have no “good” choices. It’s just not fun for me. This isn’t the same as a game that has a spontaneous check, which I can appreciate more, because it doesn’t give me the illusion of a choice. If you have a scene where my MC is getting kidnapped, and the game checks my strength to see if I can instantly push off the kidnapper, fine. It makes sense that in the moment that’s basically the only choice I get, or at least the first faculty a person would look to. If you give me the choice to talk my way out of a situation or fight my way out, and I’ve been working this whole time toward being someone who THINKS their way out, it just feels like you handed me a loaded gun with the promise that it would help me later on—and then, when the time came, told me to shoot myself in the foot.
Finally, I take issue with games that make you restart completely if you fail a check. It’s not fun, it doesn’t enhance the story. It just makes me click all the buttons again because there’s no save system, and frankly, it sucks.
I’ve found that I usually only have that problem when it’s really not clear to me which choices are testing which stats. That’s when it really frustrates me, because I know for a fact that my character would choose the option that aligns best with their stats, but when I as a player cannot tell which option that is, it breaks immersion for me and makes me feel like I “suck” at the game because I can’t decipher what is what.
Also when failing a stat check doesn’t lead to some fun (but bad) outcome and instead just results in death. For example, in Pon Para and the Great Southern Labyrinth, there’s a stat check near the very end of the game that you have to pass, otherwise it’s a game over. Having to restart a game because you made a bad choice isn’t fun, even if it is realistic. (That being said I still love Pon Para to pieces, I just used it as an example because I know of many other games that do this too)
Aah… While I’ve mastered visual novels a looooong time ago, and most of the times I can immediately track down all the “good” answers and navigate my way through endings, I still remember (not so) fondly my first interactive book, which was PsyHigh.
I sucked at it sooo badly when I started, I found myself locked into failruns all the time. And no, I don’t get ANY satisfaction for these bittersweet or bad endings. I do like playing a visual novel and getting all the bad endings one after another and then culminate in the good ending. The good ending tastes even sweeter if you’ve just seen what you avoided by getting it (aka the bad endings). But visual novels allow you to save anytime, so you can just do anything. These interactive books do not, so it’s easy to get yourself into a non-win situation.
Fortunately, the PsyHigh fiasco was a long time ago. I’ve learned with easier games, came back to it, and got the best ending first try, easily.
I don’t think I suck at these games anymore. I learn fast, and my extensive experience with visual novels and tabletop roleplaying helps a lot.
BUT!
While I’m generally good, I’m also extremely perfectionnist AND paranoid. That means I’m always stressing about my stats and the checks I encounter. And no kidding, I sometimes restart the game because of one failed check or one stat increase I didn’t mean (aka I misunderstood the tone or meaning of the choice itself, and the result wasn’t what I expected / seemed OOC). Since you can’t save in a choice game, it’s not unusual for me to restart at least 10 to 20 times during my first playthrough just so I get my perfect ending first try.
That may seem crazy to some people, but I DO get enjoyment from that. Part of the “game” for me is to piece the puzzle in order to have a playthrough with all perfect answers and reactions (at least perfect in my opinion / my goals). Of course, if the game isn’t too stat relying, I enjoy it more, since I allow myself more freedom and I’m more relaxed, above all.
So… to answer the question, I don’t suck. But I work REALLY hard for my good ending / perfect playthrough.
Though, you also have to keep in mind when I play a choice game, I ALWAYS do exactly the same MC, and there are only a few games out there where I romance more than one character. That means usually my perfect playthrough is also my only playthrough. I basically kill the replayability. Once I’m done my perfect playthrough with all the choices recorded, I replay with my choice sheet for relaxed enjoyment and glee. Again, I have fun that way - I feel unconfortable with changing the MC.
That means I can afford to spend crazy amounts of time in perfecting my playthrough.
That being said, some games I just CAN’T. Like, I have a couple of games that are the bane of my existence, and I’m just unable to get anything to work for me in them, no matter how many times I restart and how much experience I gain. The one that first comes to mind is Welcome to Moreytown. I’ve just given up on that one.
So yeah, each individual author’s style is a really important factor. Depending on how the story and choices are written, and how important are stat checks, I can suck sometimes.
Putting Moreytown aside in favor of something I’ve actually finished, well, there’s Community College Hero. I’ve restarted both a ton of times and just couldn’t manage to do everything perfectly, but “good enough” was actually good enough for me, so I’ve accepted that. I still find it extremely difficult, especially the first one. On the other side of the spectrum, let’s take Fallen Hero. It was extremely easy to me - I’ve restarted it like 3 or 4 times. The easiest though was the first Wayhaven Chronicles, with ONE restart - that’s my best result yet. The second one was a bit harder, but still very easy, around 5-6 restarts, and most for one single specific check.
To sum it up, it depends mostly on author’s style, how important are checks, and how clear it is which stat is tested. But usually once I get a hand at the author’s style, it gets easier because I know what to expect.
Oh and also…
This one is quite “simple”! The tech skill is actually tech and science. And MC is trying to understand what’s happening to Murphy’s body, so it goes into tech/science, while the other one is thinking and observation. But honestly, during the tunnels part of book 2 I was SO damn confused about the right option to reach the destination faster, considering my character is people/psychology oriented, and in this case it was relying on the vampires’ senses, but that could have been a science one too.
My question for all of you that thinks these games are a score to beat and there is a GOOD ending and everything else is failure so you have to restart. Would you play a game without stats? Where there is no clear good or bad check and all is based on grey decisions based on what your character would do?
I mean I am started to freak out due my game doesn’t have stats and haven’t a canon good ending so I don’t know if people won’t want to play something like that. I thought more people saw this like stories and not like pure score games. I am screwed I see
A lot of visual novels “otome” in general is like that. It gets a bit frustating (especially if there’s no ‘save’ feature), and from the storyline point, i’m honestly not too fond of it. But, i think i’ll still bite if the story is good, or has other unresistable elements.
About good endings, i don’t think that a “good” fluffy fluffy ending is necessary. “True ending”, instead of good ending, could still provide a lot of motivation for me.
What I suck at is determining which stat a choice relates to.
Or maybe some writers could improve the clarity of their choice writing, depending on how you view the issue.
It can be rather frustrating when the reason you fail was that you guessed wrong on which of your character’s personality stats was being tested, when it could easily be 2-3 different ones, and your character is high in one and low in the other(s).
Failing can be fun, but I want it to be purposeful, not just because I misunderstood the choices, and chose one that didn’t fit my character.
Many games don’t have a good ending (Creatures Such As We, for example), that doesn’t make them bad.
Many, many VNs (DDLC and Muv Luv, for example) are frustrating. They are emotionally draining and no matter what we choose, there is no happily-ever-after in those stories. But look at them, they’re among the most influential VNs of all time.
So yeah, I would tell you to keep on going and don’t let anyone deter you from reaching your goal.
Alright, back to the topic, keep on discussing about sucking at CoG/HG/HC games.
In some way this ‘desire’ for a highscore might be psychological. I mean, look in how many cultures people are brought up thinking they have to succeed at first try.
If i recall correctly, “The Grim and I” did have less stats (they were used for more for a narrative direction which i appreciate) and even have the option to not look at them.
While there is a “good ending”, i didn’t necessarily mind not getting it because i’m so curious as to what really happened to my character that crossing over to the other side would just left me unsatisfied.
So it would be refreshing to read a interactive story and not worry about the passing or failing stats (which can be a chore at times).
