What are the common tropes/cliches you see in CoG games (and other games) that you like (and don't like)

[FairyGodfeather]

Way back in the day I tried to get hold of any sci-fi and fantasy books I could with gay characters. There were a small number of lists on the internet of suggested books, and that one showed up on the lists. So ending up with that sort of book was most certainly frustrating.

I do think it’s an interesting premise, one that I’ve played with in my own works of fiction, although probably not something I’d share with others, since it ends up being so problematic.

I do actually like cross-dressing tropes. Although there’s certainly problems.

I think there was just the one book I read (Delia Sherman’s A Brazen Mirror which was again on a gay book list, where it shouldn’t have been) where the protagonist was a woman, who disguised herself as a man. The King fell in love with her male disguise, but the reveal that she was a woman didn’t end up with the two of them getting married and living happily ever after. In fact he wasn’t attracted to her female self since he was gay. Of course he then got forced into a marriage with some random woman, like you do, grumble, grumble.

Another interesting case is this webcomic Exiern. It starts as the story of a male barbarian who gets transformed into a woman, goes by the name of Tiffany, tonnes of fan-service, lots of cheesecake art, silly stuff, falls into those tropes oh so badly. After a few years the creator passed the comic onto another writer, and it’s actually delved into stuff it brushed over previously. The protagonist is going by male pronouns again, insisting he’s called by his proper name. He’s a male, gay barbarian from a culture that severely disapproves of homosexuality, but doesn’t find the idea that he remains as a woman, to be with men, at all acceptable. It was certainly an interesting turn around for the comic.

I was going somewhere with this and now I can’t remember where.

Oh! There was an idea I was mulling on, the ethics of forcing your romantic interests to be your preferred gender. Which is what many Choice of Games do. I was imagining if you make that choice, actually in game, the character not the player, and then they’re stuck with a dilemma. Hrm. Maybe.

Anyway I do like tropes that play around with gender, and the cross-dressing ones, although they can be a minefield.

[Kattz]

Oh I also love in-law drama. But more than that I love when the in-laws actually treat the character as a member of the family or even better than the character’s original family.

[idonotlikeusernames]

Heh, my helot mc in XoR has more than a little shade of the visionary “villain” (though he’s not yet at the power level of “a god am I”) and we’ll see how well that goes in 2017 won’t we @Havenstone ?

[Laguz]

@idonotlikeusernames

and we’ll see how well that goes in 2017 won’t we @Havenstone ?

ha. HA HA HA AHAH. HHAA HAHA HA HA

[idonotlikeusernames]

@Laguz

ha. HA HA HA AHAH. HHAA HAHA HA HA

Well as Janis Joplin once said: “Freedom’s just another word for nothin’ left to lose.”
And people with nothing left to lose can be both highly motivated and very, very dangerous.

But I take it that if or when you get back to playing it and you do play a helot mc they’ll be satisfied with some meaningless “concessions” from the elite and a slightly better deal on the conditions of their own enslavement.

[Laguz]

@idonotlikeusernames

Well as Janis Joplin once said: “Freedom’s just another word for nothin’ left to lose.”

Me and Havie, you know, sometimes we talk about what will happen in future games. And you. You’re mentioned quite a bit in passing. And I know - I can practically smell - what’s coming to you and your MC. It’s… quite something.

@idonotlikeusernames

And people with nothing left to lose can be both highly motivated and very, very dangerous.

Also very, very stupid. High emotional states are stupid. There’s nothing between a person very much in love and a person with no one left to love, because they’re both walking a very thin, tight line of stability.

@idonotlikeusernames

But I take it that if or when you get back to playing it and you do play a helot mc they’ll be satisfied with some meaningless “concessions” from the elite and a slightly better deal on the conditions of their own enslavement.

I might not live in fear of being killed for my petroleum blood if not breeding, but I a) am not going to continue playing XoR out of necessity, and b) I live being oppressed and I found a helot MC the same ol’ same old and didn’t particularly warrant any large perspective changes.

[idonotlikeusernames]

@Laguz

And you. You’re mentioned quite a bit in passing.

Tsk, tsk, tsk, If I didn’t know better I’d say you were fellow jurists, gossiping behind people’s backs.

@Kattz

But more than that I love when the in-laws actually treat the character as a member of the family or even better than the character’s original family.

Hah, like that will ever happen, no I think barely tolerated is a much more likely outcome. For the snobbish in-laws to qualify as “better” their own family would have to sell the mc into slavery or something like that. And I should probably quit while I’m ahead, we wouldn’t want to feed @TSSL any unbecoming ideas, now would we?

@FairyGodfeather

Another interesting case is this webcomic Exiern. It starts as the story of a male barbarian who gets transformed into a woman, goes by the name of Tiffany, tonnes of fan-service, lots of cheesecake art, silly stuff, falls into those tropes oh so badly. After a few years the creator passed the comic onto another writer, and it’s actually delved into stuff it brushed over previously. The protagonist is going by male pronouns again, insisting he’s called by his proper name. He’s a male, gay barbarian from a culture that severely disapproves of homosexuality, but doesn’t find the idea that he remains as a woman, to be with men, at all acceptable. It was certainly an interesting turn around for the comic.

Ugh, I remember that one the art was great but I gave up on reading it after a couple of pages, horrible use of my most hated trope. Magically transforming men into women, easy peasy piece of pie, transforming them back (or presumably doing the reverse of just transforming normal women into men)? Impossible, or at the very least the must frigging difficult thing that was ever done with/by magic.

@FairyGodfeather

I think there was just the one book I read (Delia Sherman’s A Brazen Mirror which was again on a gay book list, where it shouldn’t have been) where the protagonist was a woman, who disguised herself as a man. The King fell in love with her male disguise, but the reveal that she was a woman didn’t end up with the two of them getting married and living happily ever after. In fact he wasn’t attracted to her female self since he was gay. Of course he then got forced into a marriage with some random woman, like you do, grumble, grumble.

Well transmen are men, but I gather the girl here was indeed a girl and not a transman. I certainly wouldn’t rule out one of my mc’s falling for a transman if the character is well-written and otherwise interesting, but yeah, neither most of my mc’s nor myself would be romantically attracted to women and if confronted with such a reveal the romantic relationship at least would end.
Consequently any such marriage would either be a same-sex marriage to my mc or indeed not the kind of marriage he wants at all.

As to the ending it’s sad that the King couldn’t simply marry another man in that book.
Well I guess that’s one reason why RL me wouldn’t be very suitable as a “King” since not letting me marry the man I want (or not marry at all in case I don’t meet anyone that special) are breaking points and grounds enough for abdication to me and this does tend to get carried over into most of my mc’s who might find themselves in that unenviable position.

[OrigamiPencil]

I love the Gruff Boss who’s basically an overprotective parent to the employees but would rather die than admit it. Done well there should be lots of swearing and high-blood pressure.

I love Everyone Has a Backstory, in an ironic way. Or possibly I’m using the word incorrectly. I think motivation is good but sometimes the detailed explanations and unrealistic tragedies make me laugh uncontrollably.

Having just typed that I’ve realised I might have overdone the backstories in my project…

[Gower]

@FairyGodfeather

Oh! There was an idea I was mulling on, the ethics of forcing your romantic interests to be your preferred gender. Which is what many Choice of Games do. I was imagining if you make that choice, actually in game, the character not the player, and then they’re stuck with a dilemma. Hrm. Maybe.

That sounds really interesting, but I didn’t totally get that. What do you mean by the character rather than the player making the choice?

[Laguz]

@Gower

That sounds really interesting, but I didn’t totally get that. What do you mean by the character rather than the player making the choice?

t r a n s / g e n d e r f l u i d

pls

[Gower]

Ah, ok. That didn’t hit me as @FairyGodfeather’s meaning on first reading. I thought, trying to parse it, that the idea involved the main character forcing their romantic interests (meaning the individuals in question) to be a particular gender, which I couldn’t quite picture.

[FairyGodfeather]

@FairyGodfeather

Oh! There was an idea I was mulling on, the ethics of forcing your romantic interests to be your preferred gender. Which is what many Choice of Games do. I was imagining if you make that choice, actually in game, the character not the player, and then they’re stuck with a dilemma. Hrm. Maybe.

@Gower

That sounds really interesting, but I didn’t totally get that. What do you mean by the character rather than the player making the choice?

I’ll see if I can explain it.

In Heroes Rise, when you first meet Black Magic, you pick what they look like, and you pick their gender. They are presented as your character’s ideal dream lover. There’s even a scene where it turns out the two of us share the same hopes and dreams. This is all a game mechanic. It’s a conceit of the game.

Black Magic hasn’t actually used their reality warping powers in order to make themself your character’s dream lover. If you choose for Black Magic to be male, then he’s always been male, and he’s always looked the way you choose.

But what if this wasn’t the case.

What if your character meets a really attractive individual and their power is to appear as your dream lover. To be your perfect partner. So when you choose to make them male, for instance, they’ve shape-shifted into a male form based upon your character’s desires. At first glance, it looks just the same as the game mechanic. But you discover that they’re actually a being capable of shapeshifting, their gender is fluid, their appearance fluid, and they’re just trying to be not themselves, (whatever that is) but instead what they believe will best please you.

And this isn’t game mechanics you’re meant to just ignore, it’s part of the story. And your character becomes aware that they have this immense control over their RO, and that’s part of the story too.

There’s a Star Trek: The Next Generation episode, where the crew meet a young woman who’s an empathic metamorph, and she changes her persona and behavior according to the men she’s around. She’s designed to be the ‘perfect mate’, to meet another being’s emotional requirements and sexual desires, at a loss of all sense of self. She’s not supposed to be her own person, she’s just a reflection of what the men around her desire. So sort of like that but gender changes too.

Is this making sense?

@Gower

I thought, trying to parse it, that the idea involved the main character forcing their romantic interests (meaning the individuals in question) to be a particular gender, which I couldn’t quite picture.

Yep! With the power of magic! Although force isn’t quite the right word, since I wasn’t thinking it would be consciously forcing, just unconsciously influencing, until they become aware of what’s happening.

[Gower]

Got it! I wasn’t picturing a story with magic (for some reason). That makes a lot of sense.

[Laguz]

@FairyGodfeather

There’s a Star Trek: The Next Generation episode, where the crew meet a young woman who’s an empathic metamorph, and she changes her persona and behavior according to the men she’s around. She’s designed to be the ‘perfect mate’, to meet another being’s emotional requirements and sexual desires, at a loss of all sense of self. She’s not supposed to be her own person, she’s just a reflection of what the men around her desire. So sort of like that but gender changes too.

Have you ever read Wyrm by Orson Scott Card? I mean, I hate the man, so I don’t pay for his books, but still, what you’re describing is very much like the “gaunts” in that book.

[Razgriz]

Not sure if this is a trope or not but I love it when no character is safe. Including the bad guys. I love and hate George R.R. Martin for introducing me to this .

[bobsmyuncle]

I love redemption arcs. As long as they’re well written and not used to trivialize the character’s crimes, I will never get tired of this trope.

My other favorite, I’m not sure what it’s called. I like when stories are retold from the viewpoint of the villain. One of my all time favorite books is called Till We Have Faces, in which CS Lewis reworks the story of Psyche from her stepsister’s perspective (and also comments on the relationship between humans and divinity, because Lewis).

[Abe]

@Razgriz, are you referring to the Anyone Can Die trope?

@bobsmyuncle, is Villain Protagonist you’re looking for?

[Laguz]

ＶＯＬＵＮＴＡＲＹ. ＳＨＡＰＥＳＨＩＦＴＩＮＧ.

[Razgriz]

Absolutely. I love that trope. It makes the show more dynamic in my opinion.

[bobsmyuncle]

@Abe

@Razgriz, are you referring to the Anyone Can Die trope?

@bobsmyuncle, is Villain Protagonist you’re looking for?

I read the page, and I don’t think so? I’m not talking Walter White here (although I loved Breaking Bad). In the case of the book I mentioned, the main character isn’t evil at all.

In the original myth, the sisters are horribly jealous and ruin Psyche’s life deliberately. CS Lewis reworks the story so that the main character genuinely loves her sister and the marriage to Cupid is portrayed as a human sacrifice. The premise of the book is that she’s heard these stories being told about her, and she’s writing the book in her old age to set the record straight.

I realized it was a thing I wanted more of when I was in another thread reading about Medusa, who was raped by Poseidon in Athena’s temple, cursed into a monster by Athena, retreated to a cave instead of going on a rampage, and gets murdered by a stranger. But somehow Perseus is the hero of that story? I decided to start writing it a little and remembered Till We Have Faces.

I looked through the Anti-Villain trope page and I think this one fits best.