Unavoidable NPC deaths - what's your opinion?

I can’t imagine any lover of fiction trying to seriously argue that grief, loss, and consequence aren’t some of the most powerful tools you have as a storyteller. Of course you should use them whenever needed.

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In the form of a lot of grey choices, I hope. There are other scenarios I’m thinking of where you can choose to be selfish to achieve your own happiness, or be noble for others’ well-being. And whatever you do will only be known by you… so, what are you in the dark?

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Exactly :grin:

Let me just say this: You don’t HAVE to have romance options if you don’t feel they fit into the game nor do they work with the narrative options you have available to you! Also, you could completely leave that until after you have a good portion of writing done if you want to revisit the idea later!

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Unavoidable character deaths suck as a reader, but I think sometimes even this sadness adds to the beauty of the story. It stays in your mind for a long time, reminding you of the story. It also shows how good you were at portraying that character; they were loved so much that people came to care about them. I’m still thinking about Mordin from Mass Effect sometimes. And it hits deep, let me tell you.

I planned it for my own WiPs too, but I’m not sure if I can actually pull it off- it’s hard to make it meaningful, but not unnecessary tho in your case that’s probably not the same. More like the opposite. It’s realistic too.
Also, killing off characters as the writer is fun in some way if the player is able to save them somehow.

But what I absolutely hate is when the player is given the option to choose. No, thank you, you can die, but not on my account. That’s the worst thing ever. Won’t mean I wouldn’t play it (see Mass Effect again).

You can do it for extra drama and angst. :upside_down_face:

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There are no happy endings in A Kiss from Death. I mean, stories are only “happily ever after” when they stop before the “ever after” part.

Every NPC death is unavoidable because death itself is unavoidable.

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I’ve thought a bit more about the befriendable characters’ personalities since then. Two will be open to romance, and two are open to close platonic relations - think brother to brother. Not sure what kind of counter I should use for this yet. It’s not romance, but it’s more intimate than just being friends.

Right now, the plan for NPCs that you can save is:

  1. You can save them without penalty, if your stats are high enough
  2. You can save them without penalty if your stats aren’t high enough, if you have a good relationship with certain NPCs (different NPCs in different scenarios)
  3. You can save them if your stats aren’t high enough, but with a penalty to your reputation (which you can earn in various ways)
  4. Not save them if your stats aren’t high enough, and you don’t want the penalty in reputation

Is this what you mean by option to choose?

There will be several NPCs that are definitely doomed, but if you get your relationship with them high enough, the plan is you’ll unlock something - their backstory, a lesser penalty to morale, etc.

I’m fine with unavoidable deaths as long as it shows you that is it unavoidable and not the result of you just failing check that you could pass and save them.

I don’t want to replay a game with the intention of trying to save the character only to find it they will only die.

Also as long as it isn’t death that could logically have been prevented. For example a fast enough MC would have been able to react in time to prevent the death.

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How could I show that? I’m thinking the pass/fail-able skillchecks would always be directly behind choices, would that be sufficient?

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Nope, I meant between two characters, where you choose which one survives. The things you listed are perfectly fine, but then the “unavoidable” part is kinda left out.

It heavily depends on the context, but to put it simply: “There was no way to save them, no matter how hard you tried. Everything would’ve led to the same outcome”
These sorts of lines should be explanatory enough.

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Some comment after the death would do mostly.

You rack your brains searching for anything you had missed. For anything that could have saved them. But there was nothing you could do that would make a difference.

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I am fine with character deaths as long as it fits the story. I prefer realism because certain character deaths can hit the feelings home. If it is a RO, I would like to have some death flags as a warning for the reader.

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To me, the most obvious way to let the player know that a character death is unavoidable is by taking all control away from them — don’t give them a choice of four options of what to try in order to save the character if nothing is going to work, don’t give them a choice to go to point A or point B if the same character is going to get themselves shot regardless of where you go. Save the choices for things like how they react to the death and what their last words to the deceased were.

Failing that, I agree that explicitly telling the player that this couldn’t have been prevented is something that most genre-savvy IF players will pick up on. I’d be a bit wary on doing it via narration — unless you have a narrator with its own quirks and distinct voice, like some of the early COGs did, this is going to be interpreted as the MC’s internal monologue. And in that case, you probably don’t want to tell players that they’re tormenting themselves over whether they could have done something differently when they are actually glad they finally got rid of that jerk they never liked in the first place.

So, yeah, perhaps what I would do is have a choice on how to process the death (where you can actually pick several options at a time until you decide you need to move on — I think The Eagle’s Heir did this), with one of the questions that the MC can ask themselves being if they could have avoided the death somehow. Then the reader can get the bit about thinking and finding no way it could have been otherwise.

Just for good measure, I’d have other characters comment on this, too — a middle-aged, fatherly-figure sort of colonel laying a hand on the MC’s shoulder and saying something like “There was no way, son. We both know there wasn’t”. Perhaps even a character that has been distant from the MC up to that point saying “sir, we might not always see eye to eye, but you made the right call in there. Anything else and we’d all been killed.”

Back to the original question, however, I think a way to give the player some agency and still drive the point home that they can’t save everyone is by making them choose between one character or the other dying — even if it’s in a roundabout way, such as choosing who to send to the most dangerous mission, knowing that their chances of making it back will be abysmal. (If you’re familiar with the games, Mass Effect does this: in ME2, it’s the suicide mission, but then ME2 is sort of a narrative mess so you’re probably better off modeling your scene after the original’s Virmire).

I don’t really have anything against you one-or-both-die setup, though I am of two minds about the idea to have the whole plot resolve off-screen via rumours.

While it seems interesting to put that spin on it that the obviously good choice doesn’t lead to a straightforward good ending, ideally I’d want a range of endings depending on how much the MC involves themselves, or at least on stats. None of them needs to be perfectly happy, but at least one ought to have some hope for recovery for this character.

On the one hand, having the other guy always try to off himself in spite of anything the player does seems to me to be too punishing of those players who decided to save him — it may be read as suggesting that the right choice was just letting him die, after all.

On the other hand, this isn’t as bad if there’s a chance he might survive (your decision would be about trading certain death for a chance of it, then) though I do wish we got to experience the drama of the situation first-hand (I’m picturing a furious MC confronting the other character about how they didn’t save his life just for him to squander it, is that what [dead boyfriend] would have wanted for him, etc.). And naturally, this is very heavy subject matter to include in a story (but then, this is a game about war) and you don’t want to accidentally write something that gives off the feeling that there’s no way to recover from grief or depression or suicidal thoughts, or that death is the better choice (if you choose to save the soldier, you have to cope with his survivor’s guilt and grief, and that’s fine — but if you don’t save him, make sure that you reflect just as much on the tragic waste of his life potential, and how losing him has a very palpable, negative impact on all those around him).

However, like I tried to get across before, trying to make characters feel the emotional impact of a loss can enormously backfire if the character turns out to be unintentionally unsympathetic, so… Ultimately, so much depends on implementation that you might as well just write following your vision, make a WIP thread, and simply let people tell you if you get it wrong. :sweat_smile:

As always, my thoughts are very long-winded and, I’m afraid not too coherent. Sorry about that. :sweat:

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Ah, that. I remember seeing that in someone’s playthrough of Walking Dead, I think, where you must shoot either one of your two friends because they’re fighting and there’s nothing you can do about it. Not planning to put anything like that. Feels like a cheap way to get people to cry, if anything.

You won’t get those four choices for the doomed characters.
Those two characters are part of your “band” of befriendable NPCs, though not ROs. Initially separating the two in that scenario wasn’t your choice, either - the choice you do have is whether to hold him back from now-certain-death or not. His response will change depending on his relationship stat.

Maybe he writes a note to you before he deserts explaining things - would that work? What he says depends on your relationship stat.

Sounds like a good idea. I’ll keep that in mind.

We’re pretty short on that, unfortunately… Pretty much everyone in a position of authority in that fort has a few screws loose. At least, some of your friends aren’t, and though there isn’t much of an age difference here, one of them has been a legionnaire for two years longer than you have.

I’ll need to rethink some scenarios now that I have a better idea of the various NPCs you’ll meet. I’m past “throwing ideas on the table and seeing if they stick” now, I think.

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A note would work. I was speaking in general terms myself. But if the npc that always dies deserts a letter saying they had no choice and telling the player there was no other way. Could work.

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Guys, what do you think of a character you meet early on being killed off for real soon? The moment you see him he’s already looking physically unwell, and then being out in the desert does a quick job of him when things start. I really can’t see how guy will survive, to be honest, unless he becomes the load to everyone (not just the player character), and nobody wants that. There’s no guarantee of survival in my universe - it’s either git gud or die.

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If it’s early on it will hurt less… the player don’t have time to bond with the character so I guess it’s feasible to kill off that character. I for one am pretty lean on killing off my ROs so… I can’t be the best person to advise you. :sweat_smile:

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Hm, that’s a good point. You do get a choice to interact with him the moment you meet him (under circumstances where both of you have no choice being there), but he’s not making any effort to interact back with you.

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If it’s executed properly, then sure. I have no qualms on unavoidable deaths - it sets the tone of the story afterall, and I’m really more inclined in realistic outcomes than the usual ‘good choices equals happy endings’ trope people seemed to indulge in more.

I’m quite excited to be honest. I hope you give some options for coping in the aftermath of the act though, (like the situation you proposed, choosing who to save who). I’ve seen most stories with character deaths that seems to forget the ramifications of being responsible with another person’s life like that, instead brushing it aside like nothing ever happened at all.

I hope this is comprehensible enough. Wish you the best

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Spoiler alert!

I loved Mortulous’s kindness and his death left me heartbroken. I couldn’t accept it and tried to find a way to save him at any cost. But after reading through the other options, I finally understood his sacrifice. He held his love and his friend both close to his heart. He would do anything for them. He would rather die than see any of them hurt. He was happy ever after in his own way.

Side note: Oh, and the Twilight references were hilarious! LOL Thanks for the laughs @will

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