Gotta agree. Don’t find myself here for an interactive fiction version of Bartleby, the Scrivener.
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Ah, that’s my bad, I didn’t want to throw spoilers in a post that’s not even about the game, so I tried to keep it as broad strokes as I could. The father figure is actually a side note in the plot that you have the option to completely ignore if you so choose, the game itself is focused much more heavily on being a sexy spy within the walls of Versailles. Political intrigue and espionage is more the order of the day, here. And romance with fellow sexy spies, naturally, being an HC game.
In the beginning of the game, you get accosted by a noblewoman who later turns out to be the spymistress you end up working for, and she slips you a disguised note that says to meet her at a designated spot at a designated time, which you do. During the first conversation, after reading the note, before you start speaking to her at the meeting place, and when she makes her offer to you, are the times when you have the option to make your character less than enthusiastic about things, but then it’s followed up by the spymistress telling you that you’re free to back out of you don’t think you’re up to the task… and said option to back out plainly doesn’t exist. Your options are instead some flavor of agreement, with the most negative being, “Well, it’s a huge risk to my life, but the money’s pretty tempting” (not written in that manner, of course). That’s the part that sticks with me, and what I was trying (and failing) to reference in my example.
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Ah yes, OFNA’s response to the statement of “let me say no, damn it!”, and probably one of my favorite rebuttals I’ve read in recent memory:
“Okay. You can say no. The bird cult refuses to accept it as an answer and drags you kicking and screaming into their ranks regardless, but they’re certainly not stopping you from saying it!”
I have to give the author props on that one, not only do I have the option to say no, I even have the option to try and go down fighting. It winds up being useless, as expected, but it makes me feel good!
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Oh yeah, I’m not coming out and trying to say that games with stat checks are bad and people should feel bad for writing them. Like I said, this post is just me getting a personal feeling off my chest (and allowing others to do the same, if the replies indicate anything of the sort), if people like games with stat checks, then more power to them, I say.
Yeah, I mentioned in reply to another user that I totally get an author putting their foot down if adding in an option to refuse something were to cause even more work for them than they’re already doing, especially if it’s not something they intend to make a focal point of the story in the first place. If letting me say no results in sudden violent hair loss, then by all means shut me down on that count. But if it’s a type of refusal that can be instigated and resolved in a small handful of words, then I might be more inclined to push harder for it - within reason, I don’t want to be a pushy jerk.
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About stat checks.
I really appreciated the storyteller mode in VtM: Night Road, god knows if that particular author loves to put a lot of skills in his games, and every time going through the act of translating and interpreting every choice for the related skill feels like a chore (and a moment of trepidation afterwards to see if you picked correctly).
Of course we could also talk about the Min Maxing thing (in CoG game you usually have 2 strong stats out of 5 and use them in combination, when you recognize them), but that it’s a necessary evil.
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Speaking as a player, I love it when stats feel like they open doors as well as close them. For example in Choice of Rebels choosing to be intellectual opens the option of learning magic. Obviously this is an extreme example and not every stat can get it’s own super cool mechanics, even in Rebels with what, 3 stats? Still, finding ways to reward stats not just check them can be very rewarding for the reader.
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I think there are some great points here. I’m at work so I can’t reply in depth, but this is exactly the sort of feedback that’s desired in beta testing so I recommend you sign up to do that! Or get involved in giving feedback when things are still at the WIP stage.
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I fully support this. Every now and then i have problem with deciphering what influences what. It becomes a problem with more stat driven games. Also i may be a minority here, but i never really get immersed in a story. It’s just a interactive story to me, where i am interested in plot and character interactions. So if i can make more efficient choice for the goal i set all the better. Best case would be if it’s togglable in settings i guess.
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In a recent project, I’ve started by explicitly stating that the story only goes ahead if the main character is a willing participant, so the choice to opt out is never presented to the player.
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Learning to write IF is something that is still an ongoing process, so thank you so much for your insightful words and penetrating commentary!
If one were curious about how to write a (non-interactive) story, there are books, lesson plans, and analyses galore that will tell you exactly how to do that. Likewise, the same is true for a “straight” game (not IF). Because they both have the same structure: Start at Point A, have adventures along the way, finish at Point Z.
Unfortunately, most IF is written without a clear structure in mind, leaving authors in a difficult position of knowing how to organize the reader’s choices.
As far as I can tell (and I definitely may be wrong), there are only 3 different structures in a successful IF game:
- Wandering A to Z - A straight-through path from beginning to ending is not immediately visible to the player thanks to all the “inconsequential” detours, dalliances, and flavor experiences (including romance) along the way.
- Train Station - A story with fixed, preset paths that go from A to Z, A to Q, or A to L ( usually “stat check” defined pathways), and the player only gets to follow one path per playthrough.
- Hurdle Jumping - Puzzles, obstacles, items, NPCs or battles must be won/overcome/found in order to follow the one and only pathway to its end.
All of these can be done in a way that is enjoyable and rewarding to the player/reader, and all can be done in a way that feels boring/repetitive or non-immersive.
I think where authors often get lost is that they start writing with passion and excitement but then fail to see/identify what the overall structure of their game/story is.
What is the exciting/enjoyable part of the game (not story!) for the readers? Is it:
a) Having fun exploring and meeting people along the way down the (one and only) path?
b) Finding and then choosing one pathway (out of many) and then following it to its end?
c) Solving the puzzles in order to move forward down the one and only path?
Once you know that answer, writing a game story is a lot easier, in my opinion. Because then you know what the point of the player’s choices is - to adhere to the structure of the game.
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I really like the way it’s done in Night Road, where there’s an optional Storyteller mode where the game explicitly tells you what stats the options will be checking against. It doesn’t tell you the threshold you have to beat. It doesn’t tell you if you can beat it. It just tells you that the option will be testing Composure+Drive. I like this way because it lets me run it blind the first few times I go through it, but later on when I’m trying to get specific outcomes it helps me fine tune my approach.
Weirdly enough, though, I don’t think it’s super useful in Night Road. Due to the nature of the game as a VtM property the skills and stats are well defined enough that you can usually tell what each option is going to be testing, though there are some outliers. It’s nice, but a lot of the time it’s telling me information I already guessed.
However, I really think this approach would shine in games where there’s more opportunity for stat confusion, particularly games with a lot of social skills where I’m often torn between things like “Is this Straightforward or Aggressive? Is this little white lie Deceptive or Polite?”
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It seems to me like only point 1 is a real IF.
Point 2 being an RPG (like those in the obsidian franchise), and point 3 a puzzle adventure (like those by daedalic entertainment).
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On the ability to say no, I wouldn’t be a fan of early game-overs for people who don’t like the plot concept. I bet that would get a lot of complaints by people who thought the presentation of a choice was a promise that they could play the game that way, and would then feel punished by the fact that it just led to an early ending. I predict 1 star reviews and refund requests would abound.
It’s of course possible to be near-explicit about the fact that this would lead to an early ending – like a high-stakes version of the Samurai of Hyuga fish-killing choice (and I remember well the forum argument that produced that one) – but it breaks immersion for a lot of people when the author is in essence jumping around, waving hands, and saying “this will end your game early!!”
That said: I’m a big fan of the ability to be a reluctant participant in the plot, especially if the plot takes us along routes that reasonable people might find immoral, unpleasant, or ridiculous. As I said about The Hero Project when it first came out:
I understand that many authors may not feel they have the time to write a thoroughgoing “reluctant” option, but it would I think get a warm reaction from readers. A reluctant protagonist is immediately more memorable and often more fun than one who’s just riding the plot rails. If you’re investing time in protagonist variability at all, investing in a “reluctant protag” path will often be worthwhile.
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There’s one game, my MC is friendly even to someone seems unreasonable and he is very considerate, but in the beginning of one chapter, he is suddenly on a personal investigation with that one hot-headed classmate, I’ve no idea what happened and I even restarted the game to check if I was missing a chapter or two, 'cause my MC kept distance to that seething volcano of a character since their dynamics were so different to each other, I’d never expected them would hang out together tbh or else it would seemd out of character for my MC.
Then here’s a flashback later or in the middle of the chapter explain why would my MC being there by let the said character approached him and asking for assistance to take down a person who they thought was responsible for something even though the two of them had very low friendship scores, I was like, why my MC? I thought they somehow dislike my MC for his kindness.
While I understand the plot’s here for a reason, and but later in that scene that character charged at their target and hold them at knife point, and left that person in dire situation, which result in my MC ended up being grounded due to his involvement iirc… wait, not sure if I’ve mistaken this game with some other game, but still, why my MC would ever agree to take part in such impulsive action is eluded to me.
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Thank you for your opinion! That was an interesting read and I’m sure it and the whole tread will be useful.
What do you think if skillcheck failure doesn’t just close one path but instead opens another one?
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In 180 Files: The Aegis Project, fail skillchecks opens up some interesting result, and one certain major failure lead up to one RO shows up to rescue the MC and the MC could still continue their mission and went to the same place if they succeeded, that’s really wonderful.
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@Zyrios Im late to the party, but I wanted to let you know how I feel about it. I am the same as you, I detest not being able to refuse certain things in games, or to be forced to do an action that goes against my character.
And yes, I also hate when I am “forced” to pass a stat check I didnt anticipate. Maybe I knew it was there, but I thought it looked like an agility check instead of a strength check, I fail it miserably, and I have to restart. Those, are the worst.
HOWEVER!
There is also a mirrored version of me inside my head, one that reminds me that no matter the kind of person you are and how you think you will act, certain situations push us to our limits and we end doing things we never thought we would. Or, people use some kind of leverage against us and we end being forced to do that anyway.
I believe those unavoidable moments that go against our characters could be written like that, but each person is a world, and the writers do write their stories with some characters already in mind. If our character doesnt fit with theirs, some choices will… “stink”. So, when this does happen, I “roleplay” it as me giving a situation a chance or getting a benefit. In your spy example, I dont want that info at all, nor do I want to work for them. But I dont think its wise to anger a spymaster, or to make enemies of those people, its better to stay in their good side than wake up (or not waking up) in a place you dont know, Dark Brotherhood-like xD
And about the stat checks, this reflected side of me thinks that like in real life, if you try to do something and you arent good enough for it, you should fail. Yeah, it bothers me that my 10ft tall, wide as a house, mountain of muscle warrior cant stealth-kill that nimble assassin, or dodge a rain of arrows. But it would bother me even more that he could, given his completely opposite build to the required task. It would break immersion. Same as a visual stat check that tells you what is being checked, and how much you need.
So what we need is a path through every challenge, with a different door each.
So my mountain warrior can tank the attack and snap the assassin neck, the rogue can sneak around and backstab it, the mage can summon flames on him, heck, even a healer could hire someone to take care of him!.
But, that would make a 300k word story into who knows how long, surely not a task every writer can acomplish. Like writing a totally different book per choice.
Thats why, in the end, we can only hope for two things:
One, that the writer cleverly uses the wording of the options to let us know indirectly which stats and checks are being used…
And two, that they can kind of mask the forced options a bit better, under threats, extorsion, favors, gifts or whatever.
Until then, the only choice we have is to continue giving support to those writers that we like the most, and to give the rest a chance to tell us their story xD
Sorry about this long text, almost a book by itself xD
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I wouldn’t say you’re late to the party, I’m just very slow to respond is all.
What you’re saying definitely makes sense, that many of the “can’t say no” scenarios are written in the vein of, oh, let’s use Soul Stone Wars 1 as an example: “You just watched this elf woman light a bunch of sea monsters on fire with magic, do you REALLY want to piss her off right now?” And, similarly, that several of the skill checks I get hit with that I can’t overcome are probably best approached as, “oh hey, my character has weaknesses, who woulda thought?”
It certainly doesn’t stop them from irking me, but I do understand the message, and I do agree with it. And again, the last thing I want is to essentially tell an author who’s spent so much time and effort on the story already that they did a bad job and have to do it all over again. That would be incredibly insensitive. Nobody has to put in the work to tell a story, they’re doing it because they honestly enjoy it, and I know I wouldn’t appreciate someone coming along and spitting in my eye after going to so much trouble to produce something I’m genuinely proud of and want others to enjoy.
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Those are, to quote Bob Ross, happy little accidents: I wasn’t trying to screw up, I didn’t want to get to that conclusion when I made that choice, but hey, it worked out, so I won’t argue it.
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It can be on some people eyes, or even anyone at first glance, but those worlds are shaped as the author want and ‘freedom’ can be hardly an option, specially by limitations and the complexity that requires can be way too much, if you don’t feel conformable or limitated, is fine, you can just leave it alone and pick another, but I honestly recommend gave them a chance and submerge in the Worlds they binged to us and enjoy them as much as possible, so in resume, is a flaw yes, but doesn’t exist such a thing as perfection, and in the end, if is just another root from books and novels, just like VN as well, and don’t worry, any or your posts, they are pretty civil and respectful, thanks for sharing your concerns with all of us.
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